College and Firearms

Eo1n8wrd · 22-01-2015 9:49am

You've been told no by the college, that's the managments position and I doubt debating it here will change their opinion.

Your licence says you are entitled to have in your possession use and carry such and such a firearm, That permission doesn't extend to anyone else in any setting let alone a classroom.

Yes it's a minefield, welcome to Ireland! It's too much of a can of worms to open for yourself and leaves you far too exposed. If it was to go wrong you would find yourself very lonely very fast.

Make good use of powerpoint, use photos to demo the safety features and practices, prerecord some videos of you actually firing at targets, that will be far more instructional than passing around a gun could ever be. if you did bring one in then most likely they won't be paying any attention to you just waiting for their turn to play with the cool gun and take a selfie!

Wildcard7 · 22-01-2015 11:30am

Heckler wrote: »

Nope reason no. But many people have never even seen a firearm up close never mind held one and I thought it might add to the presentation. I still do.

To sum this thread up I think everyone basically agrees with your intentions. It's just that too much can go wrong if you brought an actual firearm - not in a safety way, but in a PR way (for lack of another word). Someone might just take a picture, not out of mischief but because you actually succeeded to interest someone in it and he wants to share that with his friends on facebook, who then share (or even just like) it and before you know someone with a bale of hay for a brain sees it and goes bananas over it.

I understand your frustration, believe me I do. I actually am from Switzerland where as a 16 year old I can get a semi automatic sig550 to take home without so much as signing anything. And where the same 16 year old me can walk into a supermarket on the way to the range with the rifle strapped to my back to buy a can of coke and noone bats an eyelid. Been there and done that. But it's an entirely different matter here. If you want to change that by educating people you get two thumbs up from me, but as long as the majority and the law have a stick up their arse when it's about this topic I'd agree that you have to really make sure you don't take any risks.

How about that: You give your presentation, bring replica guns with you, and try to depict the sport in the positive light that you see it. And then you invite your class to join you at the range next week (or hand out your ranges flyers, if they don't have any, make one). Like that you might change a few minds, and if you're really lucky one or two of your classmates might actually come up to the range and experience it first hand.

Sparks · 22-01-2015 12:36pm

Strider wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with representing firearms as safe, legal etc. but a lecture hall isn't the place for it.

Every year for the last fifty years, this is precisely how the college rifle clubs do their initial meeting and safety presentation. One speaker explains the basics of how the club operates and what the new members can anticipate on their first trip to the range; another range officer in full shooting kit demonstrates the standing, kneeling and prone shooting positions using an uncharged unloaded air rifle.

The college hasn't complained; they think it's a good idea. Heckler's college isn't used to it and thinks differently. That's all this is.

the_syco · 22-01-2015 1:08pm

You asked college, and

College management said no "under no circumstances" could firearms be brought on campus

So on the day, lugging a gunsafe into the school will be pretty much giving the two fingers to the college management.

Best outcome; they tell you to go home. Worst outcome, they get a Garda to take the firearm off you, and let you pick it up from the school.

They have said no, and yet you seem determined to piss them off. IMO, this fight is not worth fighting.

civdef · 22-01-2015 4:51pm

I can't help thinking of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eP6UvNgbqIA

gctest50 · 22-01-2015 4:59pm

civdef wrote: »

I can't help thinking of this:
......

or this :eek:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75sWALt2IzI

Eo1n8wrd · 22-01-2015 7:34pm

he's good, but she's better :P
anyone know where she was hiding that hand-cannon? :P

EWQuinn · 23-01-2015 3:40am

Invite the class or maybe a few volunteer members of the class to your range, for a demonstration, and to try firearms in a professionally supervised setting. Tape the event. Show a vid in class as part of the presentation, have the participants give their impressions to the class.

Maybe that's illegal too, maybe impractical, but might accomplish the familiarization and lessening of predjudice you are looking for.

deeksofdoom · 23-01-2015 12:23pm

Ah just forget about it.

Do a presentation on how to change the wheel on a car, much more pratical and useful to everyone involved.

Wadi14 · 23-01-2015 2:22pm

Heckler, as a fellow shooter and retired Army firearms instructor, by all means do your presentation, but use your props for demonstration purposes only, I wouldn't hand them out to class mates, my reason for saying this is I believe it would be a distraction, and you may loose control of your presentation. I'm not trying to be disrespectful to anyone but what is the first thing a non shooting person does if you hand them a firearm or a replica firearm, they bring it up into an aim and pretend to fire it, in a presentation you really don't want that.
As Sparks said earlier employ an aid and have them demonstrate as you talk, kit, positions, marksmanship principles etc.

I'm guessing the presentation is part of your course work, then its for you, your classmates are there as an aid to you to, think of giving a good presentation and don't do anything that may lead to you loosing there attention.

tac foley · 23-01-2015 2:45pm

Wadi14 wrote: »

As Sparks said earlier employ an aid and have them demonstrate as you talk, kit, positions, marksmanship principles etc.

Good idea, an AIDE, rather than an aid. Another member of your gun club who has a firearm's license of one kind or another, and who knows what to do when you are describing details and positions - way better than trying to talk over your shoulder, or from the floor...

Here in yUK nobody without a firearms license can actually handle a working firearm, so I guess that things are different where you are.

tac

Wadi14 · 23-01-2015 4:23pm

Thanks Tac, he/she may be an aide, but in a presentation or lecture they in my eyes would be an aid same way as a computer or screen or notes would be an aid. If I was producing a lesson plan the assistant would be listed under the aids heading lol

Heckler · 24-01-2015 6:31am

deeksofdoom wrote: »

I haven't read all the posts in this and don't really want to to, but just to say that I think its a simple case of a guy who wants to blow his hole to his college buddies about how cool he thinks he is.

There's no way I would be bringing firearms with me to any college thing, god knows what sort of impression people would have afterwards.

I'm a mature student 41 years of age. I'm well beyond trying to make people think i'm "cool". A few of my close friends know I shoot. Most people I know don't. Because I don't advertise it. No one in my class since september had any idea that i target shoot.

We have to make a 10 min presentation on something we are interested in and know something about. I choose target shooting. I thought it might be of interest to the class and maybe might educate them on shooting sports.

Your notion that i'm "blowing my hole" to impress college friends is both wrong and offensive.

Even my closest friends who know I shoot have no idea where I keep my firearms. I thought it might be a chance to show people what target shooting is all about. The notion that shooting sports are something to be hidden should be dispelled "god knows what sort of impression people would have afterwards". A well researched presentation on target shooting might actually educate people and leave them with a "god knows good impression".

deeksofdoom · 24-01-2015 11:08am

Heckler wrote: »

I'm a mature student 41 years of age. I'm well beyond trying to make people think i'm "cool". A few of my close friends know I shoot. Most people I know don't. Because I don't advertise it. No one in my class since september had any idea that i target shoot.

We have to make a 10 min presentation on something we are interested in and know something about. I choose target shooting. I thought it might be of interest to the class and maybe might educate them on shooting sports.

Your notion that i'm "blowing my hole" to impress college friends is both wrong and offensive.

Even my closest friends who know I shoot have no idea where I keep my firearms. I thought it might be a chance to show people what target shooting is all about. The notion that shooting sports are something to be hidden should be dispelled "god knows what sort of impression people would have afterwards". A well researched presentation on target shooting might actually educate people and leave them with a "god knows good impression".

Sorry for offending you, but I think its a bad idea. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Eo1n8wrd · 24-01-2015 11:14am

No doubt your intentions are good, and very few people are saying you shouldn't do the presentation on target shooting, what we're saying is that you should leave out the firearms.

It's a pointless debate anyway as the college have refused you permission and going against it will create the type of negative view you are trying to go against

hexosan · 24-01-2015 1:53pm

I think you were given an excellent suggestion a few posts back about bringing one or two from the class to the range and doing a short video to use in the presentation. I think it would be every bit as effective as bringing the firearms into the college.

Heckler · 24-01-2015 3:35pm

deeksofdoom wrote: »

Sorry for offending you, but I think its a bad idea. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

No worries. I see where you are coming from.

Heckler · 24-01-2015 3:44pm

Thanks for all the input. On reflection I can see how it could be a bad idea bringing firearms into a college but at the same time with this nonsense the ptb are trying to pass I thought it might be a chance to educate a few (potential voters !) people about our sport.

I'm going to use a slide presentation with photos and video from the range I use.

Heckler · 24-01-2015 3:51pm

Sparks wrote: »

Every year for the last fifty years, this is precisely how the college rifle clubs do their initial meeting and safety presentation. One speaker explains the basics of how the club operates and what the new members can anticipate on their first trip to the range; another range officer in full shooting kit demonstrates the standing, kneeling and prone shooting positions using an uncharged unloaded air rifle.

The college hasn't complained; they think it's a good idea. Heckler's college isn't used to it and thinks differently. That's all this is.

Yup . I could be wrong but I'm guessing the college never had such a request in the past so the automatic reaction is no. If they engaged a bit that might change but hey thats their policy and I'm fine with that.

Heckler · 29-01-2015 2:47am

With a couple of weeks to go I'm setting up a slide and video demonstration of benchrest shooting and pistol shooting. With no firearms on site I'm going to pass around a .22, 9mm and .38 expended casing so the class can see the difference in size.

I'm also going to pass around a replica 9mm Beretta and a .45 1911 to demonstrate how pistols work with regard to magazine loading and chambering.

Replicas are ok by the college btw !

I also have the loan of a H&K MP5 airsoft replica to show. The reason being to show that the Beretta 9mm fires the exact same bullet as the MP5 while they look totally different. To try to dispel the idea of the scary machine gun.

Any advice and or criticism welcome.

29-01-2015 9:55am

Due to the fact that our sport is being scrutinized I would not use an airsoft H&K MP5 as it is a not representitive of sporting firearms in Ireland.

Are you trying to impress, scare or win people over?
Think about it.

Sparks · 29-01-2015 12:55pm

Heckler wrote: »

With no firearms on site I'm going to pass around a .22, 9mm and .38 expended casing so the class can see the difference in size.

Please don't do that, nobody likes being arrested. (Under Irish law, an expended casing is still classed as ammunition).

I'm also going to pass around a replica 9mm Beretta and a .45 1911 to demonstrate how pistols work with regard to magazine loading and chambering.

Would something like this not show it more clearly?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJMXXuGhINE

To try to dispel the idea of the scary machine gun.

That is really, really, really not going to do that.

If you want to reassure them, explain Article 6 of 91/477/EEC to them.

edit: In fact, are you actually going to explain Irish firearms law to them? (The basics, at least?)

civdef · 29-01-2015 1:14pm

Have to agree I can't see PR value in handing around black scary guns.

Wadi14 · 29-01-2015 3:15pm

Have to agree with the above comments, Heckler looking at it from the outside I think you are loosing sight of what your goal is, your goal isn't to try and convert non shooters, your goal is to give a good presentation as part of your course work, I mentioned it before I wouldn't go handing out firearms and I wouldn't be using aids/props like Beretta 9mm, most target shooters in Ireland have never held one never mind shoot one, IMO it is not representative of what the shooting community use it is representative of what a criminal uses, you will definitely loose your audience once you start handing out stuff.

Your talk is to evaluate you that you can stand up in front of a class of people and give a confident talk, every thing you need can be done through PowerPoint, put it up on the screen and talk directly to ur audience they will focus on the screen and your description of what they are looking at, hand them a 9mm Beretta and do you think they will be listening to you then ? I'll tell you now no they won't be.

You will get everything you need on YouTube, and good luck hope it goes well Heckler

deeksofdoom · 30-01-2015 8:06am

I said it before and I'll say it again, 'Give the lecture on how to change the wheel on car'. Its simple, its informative, its a practical skill that everyone should know, you can throw in a bit of humour, you can get them all around your car in the car park changing the wheel, believe me I've done it and it went down a treat. As Wadi has said

your goal is to give a good presentation as part of your course work

pick something simple that they can all relate to.

Go ahead with the firearms thing and all anyone is going to remember about you from college is that you were the 'nut job that gave them a lecture on guns'.

Grizzly 45 · 01-02-2015 8:01pm

deeksofdoom wrote: »

Go ahead with the firearms thing and all anyone is going to remember about you from college is that you were the 'nut job that gave them a lecture on guns'.

OTOH ,if I were employing Heckler at a later stage and I saw that on his CV, If I have brains as an employer,I'd be marking this CV as of great intrest as this is someone who is possibly not afraid of controversy and willing to think outside the norms and box and possibly willing to tackle unique projects that may offend the normal .Rather than read gave power point presentation on the joys of train spotting and practical shoe lace collecting [With apologies to shoe lace collectors and train spotters amongst us.]

Agree 1000% do not bring the props,real or fake.Do the presentation if you dare and can live with being branded a gun nut or whatever..[I'd take that as a badge of pride these days].Funny I always thought University and college was there to make you challange belifs and norms of life,and thus learn thru experiance and mistakes not to turn you into a PC ,group think, grey "Bot":rolleyes:

Mellor · 05-02-2015 5:02am

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

OTOH ,if I were employing Heckler at a later stage and I saw that on his CV, If I have brains as an employer,I'd be marking this CV as of great intrest as this is someone who is possibly not afraid of controversy and willing to think outside the norms and box and possibly willing to tackle unique projects that may offend the normal .Rather than read gave power point presentation on the joys of train spotting and practical shoe lace collecting [With apologies to shoe lace collectors and train spotters amongst us.]

If I was in HR at Heckler, I'd mark it as a person who doesn't make the best decision in regards to public relations. Attraction attention goes both ways.

Grizzly 45 · 05-02-2015 1:25pm

Depends on what Heckler is going to do as a career.:pac:

Heckler · 06-02-2015 8:10pm

Appreciate all the input. Going to go with a slideshow presentation, no props, no expended ammo etc.

The idea is to give a presentation on something you're interested in and that you might have a bit of passion about. Wheel changing doesn't fall under that.....Also it doesn't have to be something everyone can relate to. After hearing the subjects of some of the other presentations I can't relate to many of them.

Sad state of affairs that someone giving a presentation on shooting is liable to be labelled a 'gun nut'. Says more about some narrow minded people than it does about me. And if they call me such off with them. I won't waste my time worrying about it.

Thanks for that video Sparks. Gonna use that.

Wadi14 · 07-02-2015 12:53am

Ahh Heckler its great that you get to pick your talk/presentation, I remember being told to do a 45min talk on the My Lai Massacre once.

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College and Firearms

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