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Romans in Wicklow

  • 25-08-2011 7:06pm
    #1
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭


    Any thoughts, theories, opinions, wisdom or reference gratefully received ;)
    To date, no physical evidence has been found to indicate that there was any form of Roman presence in Wicklow.
    Two things indicate that this might be a possibility.
    The first is a townland near Avoca by the name of Tigroney, this is translated locally as "The House of the Romans" and the translation has not been refuted to the best of my knowledge.
    And the possible presence of Palladius - who I am assured - was not St.Patrick
    Annal M430
    M430.0
    The Age of Christ, 430.
    M430.1
    The second year of Laeghaire.
    M430.2
    In this year Pope Celestinus the First sent Palladius to Ireland, to propagate the faith among the Irish, and he landed in the country of Leinster with a company of twelve men. Nathi, son of Garchu, refused to admit him; but, however, he baptized a few persons in Ireland, and three wooden churches were erected by him, namely, Cell Fhine, Teach Na Romhan, and Domhnach Arta. At Cell Fhine he left his books, and a shrine with the relics of Paul and Peter, and many martyrs besides. He left these four in these churches: Augustinus, Benedictus, Silvester, and Solinus. Palladius, on his returning back to Rome (as he did not receive respect in Ireland), contracted a disease in the country of the Cruithnigh, and died thereof.


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    slowburner wrote: »
    Any thoughts, theories, opinions, wisdom or reference gratefully received ;)
    To date, no physical evidence has been found to indicate that there was any form of Roman presence in Wicklow.
    Two things indicate that this might be a possibility.
    The first is a townland near Avoca by the name of Tigroney, this is translated locally as "The House of the Romans" and the translation has not been refuted to the best of my knowledge.
    And the possible presence of Palladius - who I am assured - was not St.Patrick

    Slowburner - Not sure what you are asking exactly here - Palladius was a Christian missionary sent by the Pope and there were Christian missionaries prior to Patrick's time and after.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Could Roman in this sense mean Roman Church?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,937 ✭✭✭patwicklow


    The first is a townland near Avoca by the name of Tigroney, this is translated locally as "The House of the Romans"

    Im from this area and iv never heard anything in history about this, But i will do some research and get back,


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    MarchDub wrote: »
    Slowburner - Not sure what you are asking exactly here - Palladius was a Christian missionary sent by the Pope and there were Christian missionaries prior to Patrick's time and after.
    The quotation from the Annals in the OP illustrates what you say about Palladius.

    There is a townland in Avoca called Tigroney Tigh Ronaí which is reputed to mean 'the House of the Romans'.
    Palladius (a Roman) landed in Leinster and according to the Annals, one of his churches was called 'Teach na Romhan' 'The House of the Romans'.
    If you connect these two ideas it would seem a fair assumption that Palladius was in Avoca around 430 AD.
    Any clearer?


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Could Roman in this sense mean Roman Church?
    I suppose it could. But I think there is more to it than just Roman missionaries. I get the impression that any substantial history concerning Palladius et al (if there were any al :rolleyes:) was largely overshadowed by the Arrival of St.Patrick.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    slowburner wrote: »
    The quotation from the Annals in the OP illustrates what you say about Palladius.

    There is a townland in Avoca called Tigroney Tigh Ronaí which is reputed to mean 'the House of the Romans'.
    Palladius (a Roman) landed in Leinster and according to the Annals, one of his churches was called 'Teach na Romhan' 'The House of the Romans'.
    If you connect these two ideas it would seem a fair assumption that Palladius was in Avoca around 430 AD.
    Any clearer?

    I don't know which annal you are quoting from but the written Irish sources don't begin until later than that date and so any Irish 'entries' in the Irish annals for that time are backdated, if you know what I mean - and that would apply to the foundation of a church also.

    Our genuine source on Palladius is from Roman documents.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    MarchDub wrote: »
    I don't know which annal you are quoting from but the written Irish sources don't begin until later than that date and so any Irish 'entries' in the Irish annals for that time are backdated, if you know what I mean - and that would apply to the foundation of a church also.

    Our genuine source on Palladius is from Roman documents.
    The quote from the annal is from this link. You can reference it through the numbers in the original post.
    I fully understand what you say about the 'back dating' which casts doubt on the authenticity of the older entries in the Annals.


    To be honest, I'm posting this more under the Heritage part of the forum title so, if information comes from secondary sources, that's grand. I certainly don't have access to any primary sources - or the linguistic skills to interpret them. That is, if there are any relevant primary sources.
    So, as I said in the OP, I would be grateful for any information, even if it comes from tertiary sources or folklore.

    The only primary sources I have available are stones, ditches and structures. I spent most of yesterday in the company of an eminent archaeologist wandering around the Wicklow uplands looking at some of these primary sources, about which, very little is known.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Can anyone point me towards a source where I might be able to research possible changes in the size of townlands. Even better, is there any way that I can research the establishment of present day townland boundaries?
    The reason I need to follow this up is that the adjacent townland to Tigroney is Kilcashel and after a discussion with a scholarly contributor to the Linguistics & Etymology forum who generously carried out some research. The contributor came up with the following conclusions;
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Enkidu viewpost.gif
    Actually Cashel does come from the Latin Castellum. The Eóganachta who built Cashel were a Gaulish tribe who originally didn't speak Irish. They named Cashel after the Roman Castellum which they would have seen in France.In addition to this I should also say there are a few places in Munster with Gaulish or Latin names due to the migration of the Eóganachta.

    I've consulted a few books and the old Dindshenchas and slowburner's Kilcashel means "Church of the Castellum", coming from the Latin.




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,937 ✭✭✭patwicklow


    slowburner wrote: »
    Can anyone point me towards a source where I might be able to research possible changes in the size of townlands. Even better, is there any way that I can research the establishment of present day townland boundaries?
    The reason I need to follow this up is that the adjacent townland to Tigroney is Kilcashel and after a discussion with a scholarly contributor to the Linguistics & Etymology forum who generously carried out some research. The contributor came up with the following conclusions;



    Its all very interesting wish i could help more. here is a link dont know if it will be any good but theres local history forum on it.

    http://www.facebook.com/groups/350976561824/


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,639 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    Offhand I reminder that a book was published supporting the notion of a Roman present in Ireland, based on the primary source evidence of Roman silver coins found in SE Ireland.
    Personally I think it was a merchant post instead of an army post, because any such military incursion would have been hearlded from one end of the empire to the other.


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Manach wrote: »
    Offhand I reminder that a book was published supporting the notion of a Roman present in Ireland, based on the primary source evidence of Roman silver coins found in SE Ireland.
    Personally I think it was a merchant post instead of an army post, because any such military incursion would have been hearlded from one end of the empire to the other.
    It would be great if you could remember the title of the book or where the coins were found.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    MarchDub wrote: »
    Slowburner - Not sure what you are asking exactly here - Palladius was a Christian missionary sent by the Pope and there were Christian missionaries prior to Patrick's time and after.

    Patrick was in Ulster really and wasn't he involved in some scandal involving property and women. Declan in Ardmore in Waterford was of the Deisi and a contemporary of Patricks.I cant imagine them getting around much and you do not encounter Patrick in the south.

    Where do you go with pre history Wicklow or is it mentioned by the Romans at all.

    What is its proximity to nearest roman settlements.

    How did the trading links work ??


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,388 ✭✭✭gbee


    It is known that the Romans sent out scouts and small exploratory forces.

    Presumably based on these explorations they decided not to send any expeditionary force to Hibernia ~ Roman remains and evidence is only really available form these large forces ~ even so, some of the largest garrisons in England have almost totally disappeared and their rediscovery in recent years was from following reports like yours.

    I think we can be confident that the Romans did not succeed in invading Ireland, not so confident that they did not attempt so or sent exploratory forces in preparation of such.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    I suggest that we should treat with caution the existence of some place-names that seem to have Latin roots.

    First, because the roots seem to be Latin, rather than that it is established that they actually are.

    Second, because the people of ancient Ireland might have been the greatest borrowers of language any place, any time. They (we?) adopted a Celtic language and culture without being genetically a Celtic people. So what do a few Latinate words signify in that vast sea of borrowing?

    People everywhere notice outsiders or people that are in some way different. One person who originated (or even lived temporarily) in any part of the Roman Empire could lead to a placename that suggests a Roman connection.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Here is a pro-Romans were here article on Hubpages referencing locations and historians etc

    So artifacts have been located

    http://quotations.hubpages.com/hub/Ireland-and-the-Roman-Empire

    This is what it says

    Roman Military Intervention in Ireland

    Ireland and the Roman Empire also had military contact, though the extent of this contact is the subject of debate. It seems very likely, in light of archeological discoveries at Drumanagh and elsewhere, that there was an exploratory invasion of Hibernia by the Emperor Julius Agricola (or his deputy), which however did not lead to a permanent Roman occupation of the island.

    Some historians believe that Ireland may have been invaded by a force composed of exiled Irish and British adventurers with the support of Roman weapons, training and organization. This possible invasion and attempted colonization may have been led by a prominent historical figure called Tuathal Techmar. This possible attempted invasion and colonization may have been led by a prominent historical figure called Tuathal Techmar. Evidence of this expedition comes from a number of sources including the discovery of a large, presumably Roman fort at Drumanagh. The fort suggests that the Romans attempted to control internal Irish politics during this period with a series of military campaigns designed to carve out kingdoms in the country for exiled Irish nobility.
    Irish History
    Some Archeological Finds

    The name of the fortified promontory itself holds clues as to its Roman origin: Drumanagh has as its root the word (D)ruman, a clear reference to the ancient Romans. Other historical references have emerged which suggest the presence of Roman legionnaires in Ireland during the first century after Christ.

    Another fort, located near present day Dublin, may also have Roman origins and according the historians Raftery and Cooney, this fort may have been a base camp used by Agricola on an exploratory/military expedition to Ireland around the year 82 A.D. The historians who support the theory of a Roman military expedition to Ireland point out that Caesar's expedition to Britain would itself be unknown if not for his writings in "De Bello Gallico" (The Gallic Wars) in which he documents his brief invasion of the island (a permanent Roman occupation would not occur until much later). Thus it is possible that other expeditions may have gone unrecorded and have been lost to history.


    At the Drumanagh site, archaeologists have found artifacts and jewelry that are clearly of Roman manufacture, as well as Roman coins bearing the images of the Emperors Titus, Trajan and Hadrian. These findings suggest a Roman presence (or participation) in Ireland from Roman 79 to 138 A.D.

    Moreover, recent archaeological excavations in Ireland have uncovered numerous artifacts and Roman and Romano-British artifacts in the southern and eastern coast of ancient Hibernia in historic sites such as Cashel, and Tara. Roman artifacts have also been found near the Lia Fáil (Stone of Destiny).

    The Evidence from Roman Writers

    In his De vita et moribus Iulii Agricolae (The Life and Death of Julius Agricola), the Roman writer Tacitus says that his while he was governor of Britain (78 - 84 AD), Agricola welcomed an Irish prince exiled from Ireland (perhaps Tuathal Techtmar) and took this as an excuse to plan the conquest of Ireland, which however never happened. Archaeological excavations have unearthed Roman and Romano-British artefacts in many sites associated with Tuathal, as Tara and Clogher [11]

    Recommended
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    .


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,639 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    slowburner wrote: »
    It would be great if you could remember the title of the book or where the coins were found.
    It was this one Roman Ireland


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Manach wrote: »
    It was this one Roman Ireland

    I must confess that I am a bit cynical about a Roman presence though not Roman contact.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    I suggest that we should treat with caution the existence of some place-names that seem to have Latin roots.

    First, because the roots seem to be Latin, rather than that it is established that they actually are.

    Second, because the people of ancient Ireland might have been the greatest borrowers of language any place, any time. They (we?) adopted a Celtic language and culture without being genetically a Celtic people. So what do a few Latinate words signify in that vast sea of borrowing?

    People everywhere notice outsiders or people that are in some way different. One person who originated (or even lived temporarily) in any part of the Roman Empire could lead to a placename that suggests a Roman connection.

    Celtic is a linguistic term only, and it seems that the main populating of Ireland happened in the bronze age. Back then it would take a lot of trading for a language to take hold so there had to be some movement of people.
    I read somewhere about Roman artifacts being discovered din North Donegal, I'll see if I can find a link.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    Manach wrote: »
    It was this one Roman Ireland

    If that's the Drumanagh stuff - the findings in that book have long been discredited by the archeologists who worked on the site.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,496 ✭✭✭Mr. Presentable


    MarchDub wrote: »
    If that's the Drumanagh stuff - the findings in that book have long been discredited by the archeologists who worked on the site.

    The problem is you have, even among the archaeological community, this Irish notion that Ireland is different. That Ireland could not have been intruded by the Romans. To the extent that what appears to be evidence is simply dismissed out of hand.

    I doubt there was ever a Roman "invasion" and certainly no occupation, but the fact there is no written record of either does not mean neither happened.

    My personal belief is that there were Roman troops in Ireland, whether as scouts or as support for a native tribe. It seems illogical they wouldn't have crossed the narrow distance from Brittania, considering they had maps of Ireland and knew it's political and social structure.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    The problem is you have, even among the archaeological community, this Irish notion that Ireland is different. That Ireland could not have been intruded by the Romans. To the extent that what appears to be evidence is simply dismissed out of hand.

    I doubt there was ever a Roman "invasion" and certainly no occupation, but the fact there is no written record of either does not mean neither happened.

    My personal belief is that there were Roman troops in Ireland, whether as scouts or as support for a native tribe. It seems illogical they wouldn't have crossed the narrow distance from Brittania, considering they had maps of Ireland and knew it's political and social structure.

    Well when I said 'discredited' I didn't mean just dismissed out of hand by archeologists.

    The archeological findings for Drumanagh have been widely published in professional journals. There is no evidence of a Roman style settlement/housing which is what they were looking for. They used geophysical technology. The archeological conclusion is that there probably/likely was trading going on with the Romans - due to artifacts found - but no settlement.

    Now, I have no problem at all with your personal beliefs.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    (pp. 174 - 181 Barry Raftery, in A new history of Ireland: Prehistoric and early Ireland by Dáibhe Ó Cróinín)
    link here
    Here's an interesting excerpt from the above - it's well worth a look.
    From Tacitus' writing of the Roman campaigns in Scotland -
    'in the fifth campaign he crossed over in the first ship, and conquered hitherto unknown peoples, and fortified the coast of Britain facing Ireland,, in hope rather than fear'
    From Juvenal, Satire 2,159-163: 'We have taken our arms beyond the shores of Ireland and the recently conquered Orkneys, and Britain of the short nights.'


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    Barry Raftery was the lead archeologist on Drumanagh - but I will have to search around to find a quote from him on the lack of evidence for a Roman settlement.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Another curiosity in relation to possible Roman interest in this district is how Ptolemy lists the 'Oboca' river as the central river on the east coast; presumably this is the current Avoca river. He shows it flowing into Dublin bay (Eblana). I have often wondered if this reflects the importance of the mineral resources in Avoca, which must have been of interest.



    E4A81976729840AFAF5DC073987D51FA-0000345227-0002508969-00500L-1793AB19FBF24AD8B430842C624F602F.png


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    MarchDub wrote: »
    Barry Raftery was the lead archeologist on Drumanagh - but I will have to search around to find a quote from him on the lack of evidence for a Roman settlement.
    I think Barry Raftery concluded that there was a Roman settlement in Drumanagh but concluded that it was not military on the basis that no weapons were found.
    The site came to light when Roman artifacts were uncovered by illegal metal detecting. No excavation has been carried out because of other legal issues.
    See here


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    slowburner wrote: »
    I think Barry Raftery concluded that there was a Roman settlement in Drumanagh but concluded that it was not military on the basis that no weapons were found.
    The site came to light when Roman artefacts were uncovered by illegal metal detecting. No excavation has been carried out because of other legal issues.
    See here

    No they didn't excavate as you say - as I said in my previous post they used geophysical methods - including overhead photography - and found no Roman style settlement. The did find Irish style homes though. He concluded that there was no evidence for Romans living there - but it likely was a trading post.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    The problem is you have, even among the archaeological community, this Irish notion that Ireland is different. That Ireland could not have been intruded by the Romans. To the extent that what appears to be evidence is simply dismissed out of hand.

    I doubt there was ever a Roman "invasion" and certainly no occupation, but the fact there is no written record of either does not mean neither happened.

    My personal belief is that there were Roman troops in Ireland, whether as scouts or as support for a native tribe. It seems illogical they wouldn't have crossed the narrow distance from Brittania, considering they had maps of Ireland and knew it's political and social structure.
    Mr.P, I think you raise an interesting point here.
    Why is there such resistance in the academic community to the possibility that Romans settled in Ireland?


    Drumanagh seems to have caused some heated exchanges in 1996
    (From John Mass. Summer 1996 edition of Archaeology Ireland magazine.)
    "Professor Raftery gave me the strong impression that he was highly supportive of my intended article. In my final interview with him (Raftery) he said: 'If you are going to push the Loughshinny thing you are on strong ground. I can't do that because I have academic constraints'".


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Irish Archaeology blog has links here and it may be possible to track down reports on the digs

    Main page

    http://irisharchaeology.ie/

    The links page

    http://irisharchaeology.ie/sample-page


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    MarchDub wrote: »
    No they didn't excavate as you say - as I said in my previous post they used geophysical methods - including overhead photography - and found no Roman style settlement. The did find Irish style homes though. He concluded that there was no evidence for Romans living there - but it likely was a trading post.
    I have been unable to find any evidence that Barry Raftery concluded this.
    Michael Herity, however appears to have concluded that the site was an Irish trading post.


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    CDfm wrote: »
    Irish Archaeology has links here and it may be possible to track down reports on the digs

    http://irisharchaeology.ie/sample-page
    The site hasn't been dug. That's probably why there is so much debate about it.
    Thanks for the link - the Articles link on that site is brilliant.


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