A5 - Derry Dual Carraigeway

MJohnston · 13-04-2021 12:03pm

riddlinrussell wrote: »

Indeed, it misses the concept that many in east Donegal will still work in Derry itself, if Derry is better connected it makes Donegal more prosperous by itself by offering more opportunities to residents. That said, the A5 corridor is the obvious choice to benefit the region. I think a good hard look should be taken at restoring the Portadown to Derry rail line as part of the new north-south rail review, that is an absolute no brainer of a line to bring back into service and would take away one of the tentpoles of the 'Alternative' A5 Alliance arguments.

It would benefit any people working in Derry that live in Lifford surely?

How viable is cross-border work now that Brexit has ****ed everything up?

Regardless, I just don't think the population of Lifford makes upgrading the road between there and Derry vital in any way. It's the least critical part of the whole N2/A5 project imo.

cgcsb · 13-04-2021 12:17pm

MJohnston wrote: »

How viable is cross-border work now that Brexit has ****ed everything up?

Not at all, there's no real border, a common travel area and right to work in either. Same applies for Irish people travelling to England even.

riddlinrussell · 13-04-2021 1:38pm

MJohnston wrote: »

How viable is cross-border work now that Brexit has ****ed everything up?

Regardless, I just don't think the population of Lifford makes upgrading the road between there and Derry vital in any way. It's the least critical part of the whole N2/A5 project imo.

I'd agree with you, its also the easiest and cheapest section, which is why its happening.

Omagh to Strabane section is the absolute lynchpin of the project and should definitely be the section prioritised

MJohnston · 13-04-2021 3:45pm

riddlinrussell wrote: »

I'd agree with you, its also the easiest and cheapest section, which is why its happening.

Omagh to Strabane section is the absolute lynchpin of the project and should definitely be the section prioritised

Right, but as per Wesley Johnston's blog of a couple of weeks ago, the inclusion of the Strabane to Derry section, and NI's insistence that the whole thing be packaged as a single project, keeps undermining and delaying the more important parts of the route.

They need to remove it, build each more critical piece as its own thing, and see where we get.

riddlinrussell · 13-04-2021 4:01pm

MJohnston wrote: »

Right, but as per Wesley Johnston's blog of a couple of weeks ago, the inclusion of the Strabane to Derry section, and NI's insistence that the whole thing be packaged as a single project, keeps undermining and delaying the more important parts of the route.

They need to remove it, build each more critical piece as its own thing, and see where we get.

Well the biggest issue is the section that links to the border in Monaghan as per Wesleys post, the Strabane/Derry section is only a bit unfavourable on CBR compared to the very poor CBR on Aughnacloy...

KrisW1001 · 13-04-2021 5:39pm

The original offer from the Republic back in 2006 was a contribution of £400 million, roughly 50% of the projected cost at the time. With the Republic paying for so much of the scheme, there was really no problem with the stretch to Aughnacloy being in there: after all, NI was getting a really good deal overall.

After the crash, that contribution shrank considerably, with only something like £125 million allocated to date (2015-2019), and a promise of another similar sum, but meanwhile the build cost has grown to over £1 billion in the intervening 15 years. (This might seem like a big jump, and it is, but it's exactly in line with the high rate of inflation in the UK over this period).

So, now the Rebublic will be funding less than a third of the total cost, not half, and while doing Aughnacloy upgrade might have just made sense when they were getting everything at "half price", it doesn't when it's just "25% off".

spacetweek · 13-04-2021 6:47pm

In practice this will mean that less of the scheme gets completed. We aren't going to increase our contribution and they can't seem to afford it without an increase.

Get Strabane-Omagh done and maybe pressure to do Omagh-Ballygawley will increase.
We don't need Strabane-Derry so much and maybe Aughnacloy isn't a deal breaker so could be dropped.

Hamnavoe17 · 16-04-2021 8:09am

MJohnston wrote: »

Exactly! Which is why it is fairly egregious that the NI authorities choose to prioritise the section of the A5 between Strabane and Derry, which offers close to zero value to the people of the Republic of Ireland.

It's also a bit ridiculous that nobody in the ROI government challenged this approach.

The Derry to Strabane section is the slowest and most dangerous part of this route which is why it was prioritised but I agree other sections should have been progressed and the longer it is held as a single contract the less likely it is that the improvement will ever happen.

James2020App · 17-05-2022 4:34pm

This road is looking like a never ending pipedream for us all living in the North West of this island.

Wondering if a SF majority at Stormont will at all help the cause, and make it anymore likely to actually start?

Chris_5339762 · 17-05-2022 4:36pm

For now no. Without a functioning Executive, major decisions that involve things like road projects etc basically stop.

James2020App · 17-05-2022 5:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119076567#Comment_119076567

Even when they do likely get into power (Granted likely to take an age), is it fair to say it still likely will mean very little as there is still an ongoing farcical environmental proceedings from a bigoted lot of local landowners?

Muahahaha · 18-05-2022 7:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119076693#Comment_119076693

Is that the section that runs through Fermanagh you are referring to? Think Id read before that its full of large farms whose owners are vehemently opposed to the project going ahead

FreedomOfSpeechAndChoice · 18-05-2022 9:56pm

Tyrone

DumbBrunette · 24-01-2023 8:36pm

https://www.rte.ie/news/regional/2023/0124/1351555-a5-road-campaign/

..

sob1467 · 28-04-2023 9:35am

Another horrendous tragedy yesterday on this road yesterday, incredibly 47 life's have now been taken on this road since 2007.

How them landowner's can sleep at night is disgusting, still doing everything in their power not to allow the road through to nationalist areas. Disgusting.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/sad-reality-of-aughnacloy-tragedy-is-its-no-surprise-the-notorious-a5-has-claimed-more-lives/1959791505.html

Charles Babbage · 29-04-2023 12:31am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120530895#Comment_120530895

No doubt it is disgusting. However, this particular section at Aughnacloy will not be the first to be built even if work does start.

road_high · 04-05-2023 9:02pm

Never driven it but it sounds like a really appalling stretch of main road. Infrastructure in general in the North seems to be creaking at the seams

NIMAN · 04-05-2023 9:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120556122#Comment_120556122

The drive from Derry to Aughnacloy is miserable. A real slow road with so few opportunities to overtake safely.

And going through kips to slow the journey further.

Road often has huge lines of slow moving traffic, too many tractors holding everyone up.

Since the better road to Belfast opened, I can't see myself ever making a Derry to Dublin journey again going through Strabane, Omagh, Sion.....

marno21 · 05-05-2023 5:57am

While the A5 is a disaster of a road and badly needs upgrading, there should be greater scrutiny on the parts of the N2/A5/N14 corridor that lie in the Republic of Ireland, which are stretches of road that are completely under the control of the Government in Dublin.

There are 3 schemes on the Dublin-Derry/Letterkenny corridor that are currently in planning:

N2 Ardee-Castleblayney (proposal is 31.3km of Type 2 dual carriageway). While this is, by the corridor's standards, a reasonably good stretch of road, it was flagged by TII in 2018 as one of the four worst stretches of national primary road in the country for severe and fatal accidents. It's a stretch of road with a horrendous record for head on collisions. It's littered with junctions and accesses. It is ready to submit to An Bord Pleanala in 2023 but the funding has not been provided to complete this hurdle.

https://monaghan.ie/roadtransport/2023/03/16/n2-ardee-to-castleblayney-road-scheme-scheme-update/

N2 Monaghan-Emyvale (26km of Type 2 dual incl. border crossing). A quieter but poor stretch of road, this section was suspended in 2022 for not meeting the Green Party requirement of bypassing a major town and encouraging more long distance car travel. It has been allocated 2.5 million for 2023 but this is contingent on a matching contribution of 2.5m from the EU's Connecting Europe facility

https://www.northernsound.ie/news/e2-5m-allocation-for-clontibret-to-border-scheme-hits-glitch-211505

N14 Letterkenny-Lifford (proposal is for 17.6km of Type 2 dual providing a full replacement of the existing N14, along with improvements along the N13 and N56 into and around Letterkenny). In mid 2020, this was on target for submission to An Bord Pleanala in Q1 2021. This has yet to happen

IMO, when these 3 schemes are complete we can then start finger pointing. But as long as these stretches of road remain unaddressed perhaps we should look to get our own house in order before telling others to address theirs.

KrisW1001 · 05-05-2023 3:29pm

Agreed. We get our house in order, and then we can shame the NI Roads Service into fixing the southern leg of A5.

Chris_5339762 · 05-05-2023 9:27pm

...and Sprucefield. And the Newry Southern Bypass, and the A1, and the mess at York Street.

sob1467 · 05-05-2023 10:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120556136#Comment_120556136

A bit of an aside but your correct big time on your tractors comment. There are so many tractors with large slurry spreaders going to those anaerobic digestion plants around Strabane/ Sion Mills & Newtonstewart area. They seem to be travelling seven days a week from distance, day and night & are so wide and awkward to overtake on what is already a very hard road to overtake cars in, nevermind these yokes.

Charles Babbage · 06-05-2023 4:37pm

In my opinion, Dublin never have proposed to fund the Derry Strabane section. They should have built a new bridge over the Foyle and run a new route on the West Bank of the Foyle to the city side of Derry, in a sort of Y shape with a link due west to Letterkenny. This would have provided a new Derry-Letterkenny route, a new Derry-Lifford route on to Dublin, and it would be more controllable than the NI process.

However, this hasn't happened and it is ridiculous that the N14 and N2 are not proceeding faster given that there is the funds to do these projects.

timmyntc · 06-05-2023 4:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120562862#Comment_120562862

Derry to Strabane was never the big bottleneck on this road, its always been from east side of Sion Mills onward really that you start to get stuck, and dont even mention Omagh.

No other way for republic to redraw the route other than having a full motorway from letterkenny to Sligo and Sligo to Dublin which would be absurdly expensive and possibly still longer than the existing A5?

Charles Babbage · 06-05-2023 5:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120562925#Comment_120562925

New Buildings etc are bottlenecks to some extent. But of course Strabane to Aughnacloy has to built, but given the insistence on a single project then the length in NI would have been reduced.

salonfire · 08-05-2023 10:50pm

At least the A5 has overtaking lanes which is more than can be said in the southern aside, Carrickmacross excepted.

johnbk · 09-05-2023 4:06am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120562862#Comment_120562862

Alas I totally agree but partition of our island rears its ugly head when it comes to inter region strategic road design. Back when this road was in the early stages of route selection, I communicated directly with the Mouchel design team on this. There was no chance of this idea happening and it took me ages to even get a response at the time. Their logic was this was a NI road scheme and that Derry Strabane was the largest traffic volumes and needs the upgrade more than any other part of the route. This will be the section first built when the time comes.

Ironically, it is predominantly a small number of people along this section that are most active against the road including deep pockets to keep going back to the high court in Belfast with arguments against it. If it had crossed the river Finn and went the west side of the Foyle, this road would not have had the same objections and would probably be built by now including the link to Letterkenny.

marno21 · 10-05-2023 8:55am

https://www.rte.ie/news/ulster/2023/0510/1382718-a5-road-northern-ireland/

Reading the facts and figures as summarised in the article it’s scandalous that nothing has been done yet

Chris_5339762 · 10-05-2023 10:26am

The Alternative A5 allowance (basically build no A5) are sneaky and clever. They continually put out objections which delay and delay the project so that the various Environmental assessments time out legally. Then those have to be re-done. They are completely and utterly against this project in any form unfortunately, and so far their opposition to it has been extremely effective.

Edit: Wesley Johnston put out a very interesting (and depressing) article recently that the A5 upgrade is now basically completely unaffordable and untenable.

http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/roads/a5omaghstrabane.html

KrisW1001 · 10-05-2023 2:28pm

The relevant part of Wesley Johnson’s site is this, from November 2022

The scheme documents that have been released include a new total cost estimate for the scheme, which is now given as £1.609 billion. That is an increase on the £1.134 billion in 2019 and the £844m as of 2009 when the Irish government committed to funding £400m of the cost. The Irish government contribution has been partly paid (£200m[promised, but so far only ]£75m up to 2022) but has not increased. This means that the amount that Northern Ireland needs to spend has increased from £444m to £1209m, a tripling of the cost. I feel I have to pause at this point and point out that this scheme is now so divorced from reality as to be living in a parallel universe.

It’s hard not to argue with this summary. Converted to Euro and divided by the (approx.) 95km length, that price-tag comes to an outrageously expensive €20 million per km.

For perspective, the M20 is expected to come in at a billion euro, or €12.5 million per km for a full motorway build. Comparing with similar types of road down South, the N4 Colloney to Castlebaldwin was €5.7 million per km, N5 Westport Turlough €12 m, and N22 Macroom is €15 m per km for what may be the most geographically challenging road ever built on this Island. (the standard cross-section for A5 is about 15% wider than our 2+2, but the type of junctions used are the same).

A5 - Derry Dual Carraigeway

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