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From Climategate to Denialgate

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Comments

  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Facts, science and research be damned. By the way, you're coming across as a complete ideologue with this rant.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    If that happens it will be tragic. It would just stand as an example of the wishes of the rich and influential usurping logic, reason and science.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    And it works the other way round too!

    Hopefully both extremes will just negate each other! ;)

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,007 ✭✭✭Moriarty


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    And the descent into process and trench warfare continues. Keep the lawyers and PR consultants in business - a lovely little self-fueling fire of it's own - while stalling any eventual actions which would be detrimental to the people underwriting the process. What a fantastic little circle jerk.

    The only logical reason for someone to be happy about money going into a PR agency instead of basic research is if you already acknowledge that the facts can't be disputed and the only game left to play is delaying the solidification of opinion and through it action.

    The implicit underlying long game of 'this will demonstrate my political ideology is superior to everyone elses so is worth getting down in the mud' throughout the entire climate change throw-shíte-against-the-wall-until-it-sticks horror show is the most galling part of it all. For all the attempts at taking a long perspective, the myopic game players never realise that this will be self defeating for everyone - perceived friend and foe alike - in the long run when no one will believe anything because they've all been lied to by too many small-time shills in small-time FeedTheMachine-gates.

    What a way to **** everything over for short-term fictional gains.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    I'm just hearing Ron Paul rhetoric here!

    Seriously, Government-loving left, stamping out the freedom movement since the post - WW11 years?

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Interesting thread if you wish to start it, but probably better we both not continue it on this thread! ;)

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,276 ✭✭✭Memnoch


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    I believe in a different thread I said you wanted to eliminate government entirely. You then argued semantics for several posts. Now it looks like you are saying above that you do in fact want to eliminate government entirely, since you believe only in the market and in no middle ground.

    I await your backtracking and semantic defense with baited breath, which you present with gusto every time the obvious implications of your statements are pointed out and reflect in a negative way on your ideology.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 788 ✭✭✭SupaNova


    Memnoch wrote: »
    I believe in a different thread I said you wanted to eliminate government entirely. You then argued semantics for several posts. Now it looks like you are saying above that you do in fact want to eliminate government entirely, since you believe only in the market and in no middle ground.

    I await your backtracking and semantic defense with baited breath, which you present with gusto every time the obvious implications of your statements are pointed out and reflect in a negative way on your ideology.

    Nowhere in that quote does Mises say that everything should be left to the market, and that is not being semantic. Mises not only believed in a government, but in democracy also.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    This thread is not a discussion of libertarianism. Mises is not a member of the Heartland Institute.

    moderately,
    Scofflaw


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Moriarty wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    And the descent into process and trench warfare continues. Keep the lawyers and PR consultants in business - a lovely little self-fueling fire of it's own - while stalling any eventual actions which would be detrimental to the people underwriting the process. What a fantastic little circle jerk.

    The only logical reason for someone to be happy about money going into a PR agency instead of basic research is if you already acknowledge that the facts can't be disputed and the only game left to play is delaying the solidification of opinion and through it action.

    The implicit underlying long game of 'this will demonstrate my political ideology is superior to everyone elses so is worth getting down in the mud' throughout the entire climate change throw-shíte-against-the-wall-until-it-sticks horror show is the most galling part of it all. For all the attempts at taking a long perspective, the myopic game players never realise that this will be self defeating for everyone - perceived friend and foe alike - in the long run when no one will believe anything because they've all been lied to by too many small-time shills in small-time FeedTheMachine-gates.

    What a way to **** everything over for short-term fictional gains.[/QUOTE]

    I'm sure what Permabear is saying will be exactly the reaction of potential libertarian funders to these discreditable revelations. It has certainly been his reaction, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if he's reaching for his wallet in support of HI's noble cause of defending other people's profits for money at the expense of science, planetary climate, and other people's reputations.

    But what is very noticeable here is that HI aren't able to dispute the facts - as usual - and so it, and its defenders, are - as usual - depending on creating a smokescreen about the interpretation of the facts.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭Eliot Rosewater


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    You can virtually guarantee that a libertarian, like any other free-market ideologue, is going to have issues with the science of climate change, because it's something that rather obviously requires a regulatory response - and when you can tell what someone's opinion on a non-economic issue is going to be by their economic stance, that opinion is rather obviously not determined by facts.

    I started a thread in the Political Theory forum a few months ago about reconciling private property rights and the climate change problem; might be of interest. I didn't take off, so I don't know if it's meaningful or not!


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,856 ✭✭✭Valmont


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    I'm sure what Permabear is saying will be exactly the reaction of potential libertarian funders to these discreditable revelations. It has certainly been his reaction, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if he's reaching for his wallet in support of HI's noble cause of defending other people's profits for money at the expense of science, planetary climate, and other people's reputations.
    So when Oil companies are involved they're looking after their bottom line, but when governments are involved it's because they're looking after science, planetary climate, and people's reputations?

    Why the reflexive faith in the benevolence of the state? If the Oil companies have a vested interest in narrative B being pushed, why does the state not have a vested interest in narrative A being pushed?

    Oil companies funding research and literature saying A = Bad
    The state funding research and literature saying B = Good

    amused and titillated,

    V


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    Valmont wrote: »
    So when Oil companies are involved they're looking after their bottom line, but when governments are involved it's because they're looking after science, planetary climate, and people's reputations?

    Why the reflexive faith in the benevolence of the state? If the Oil companies have a vested interest in narrative B being pushed, why does the state not have a vested interest in narrative A being pushed?

    Oil companies funding research and literature saying A = Bad
    The state funding research and literature saying B = Good

    amused and titillated,

    V

    Well, in this instance we can point to the scientific data, or any of the international bodies of science who all agree that it's happening.

    On the other hand, there is not one organisation of scientific repute who disagrees with this opinion.

    It's quite simple, if the HI or other libertarian think tanks who are sceptical, then please, begin to fund scientific research, gather your data and prove it's not happening. Until that happens I will regard those who push a sceptical stance on climate change as shills.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,276 ✭✭✭Memnoch


    karma_ wrote: »
    Well, in this instance we can point to the scientific data, or any of the international bodies of science who all agree that it's happening.

    On the other hand, there is not one organisation of scientific repute who disagrees with this opinion.

    It's quite simple, if the HI or other libertarian think tanks who are sceptical, then please, begin to fund scientific research, gather your data and prove it's not happening. Until that happens I will regard those who push a sceptical stance on climate change as shills.

    But they are all part of a vast government controlled conspiracy, involving: virtually the entire scientific community, all the peer reviewed academic journals and countless governments to deceive the public and it's the jobs of think tanks, funded by honest corporations who only care about the planet and the people who live on it, to shine a light on this big, ugly lie, the likes of which we haven't seen since that other massive hoax perpetrated on the world's populace: the moon landings.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,856 ✭✭✭Valmont


    karma_ wrote: »
    Well, in this instance we can point to the scientific data, or any of the international bodies of science who all agree that it's happening.
    That isn't the issue though, it's whether new power and tax X and Y will mitigate certain effects that may happen in fifty years time. If they do, should scientific evidence give states the power expand into individual's lives more than they already do? On whose authority does this change the game?

    Like we saw with the 50,000,000 UN "Climate refugees", when politicians become involved we can't just reflexively trust what they tell us because "there is a consensus you denier, bend over and take your medicine". Just like they were trusted to regulate a few banking institutions--it's not that straightforward.

    I'm trying to get the point across here that consensus or not, this isn't just about the science anymore, so HI, Al Gore, Freeman Dyson, and other commentators and intellectuals have every right to ask questions of the new party line.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,856 ✭✭✭Valmont


    Memnoch wrote: »
    funded by honest corporations who only care about the planet and the people who live on it
    My point is that we should treat the claims of government and corporations with equal scepticism. You don't believe corporations care about the planet and the people who live on it; I don't believe the modern state does either.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,276 ✭✭✭Memnoch


    Valmont wrote: »
    My point is that we should treat the claims of government and corporations with equal scepticism. You don't believe corporations care about the planet and the people who live on it; I don't believe the modern state does either.

    I believe the overwhelming consensus of the scientific community. I believe in man made global warming for the same reason I believe in evolution and the theory of gravity.

    As far as I can tell, governments are only reluctantly coming around to try and implement changes that the scientific community deem as essential to the future of this planet.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    Valmont wrote: »
    That isn't the issue though, it's whether new power and tax X and Y will mitigate certain effects that may happen in fifty years time. If they do, should scientific evidence give states the power expand into individual's lives more than they already do? On whose authority does this change the game?

    Like we saw with the 50,000,000 UN "Climate refugees", when politicians become involved we can't just reflexively trust what they tell us because "there is a consensus you denier, bend over and take your medicine". Just like they were trusted to regulate a few banking institutions--it's not that straightforward.

    I'm trying to get the point across here that consensus or not, this isn't just about the science anymore, so HI, Al Gore, Freeman Dyson, and other commentators and intellectuals have every right to ask questions of the new party line.

    Waffle. The data overwhelmingly tells us it's happening. The issue is, what can/will we do about it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,007 ✭✭✭Moriarty


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    But what is very noticeable here is that HI aren't able to dispute the facts - as usual - and so it, and its defenders, are - as usual - depending on creating a smokescreen about the interpretation of the facts.

    Indeed. It's just a pity that the same tactic of muddying the waters seems to work again and again when it comes to any issues of political significance when you have enough money behind them.
    Valmont wrote: »
    So when Oil companies are involved they're looking after their bottom line, but when governments are involved it's because they're looking after science, planetary climate, and people's reputations?

    I don't know whether you're purposely being blinkered to the problems with your position or not, but you don't seem to realise that finding holes in currently accepted theories is what many scientists live for.

    It's part of the excitement and satisfaction of working on subjects like this - you perform research and hopefully, if it's well well designed, thought out and lucky, you either a) provide further evidence that the currently accepted theories are going down the right track or b) find evidence that something's amiss. If you listen to scientists who have discovered flaws and entirely new concepts in their fields, you quickly appreciate how significant one discovery like this is in a career.

    Somehow thinking that the entire scientific community is purposely remaining silent, when evidence-backed theories to the contrary would make the scientists and institutes involved possible noble laureates in waiting seems to be ... reaching, to say the least.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,856 ✭✭✭Valmont


    Moriarty wrote: »
    I don't know whether you're purposely being blinkered to the problems with your position or not, but you don't seem to realise that finding holes in currently accepted theories is what many scientists live for.

    It's part of the excitement and satisfaction of working on subjects like this - you perform research and hopefully, if it's well well designed, thought out and lucky, you either a) provide further evidence that the currently accepted theories are going down the right track or b) find evidence that something's amiss. If you listen to scientists who have discovered flaws and entirely new concepts in their fields, you quickly appreciate how significant one discovery like this is in a career.
    Wonderful...and if you're actively engaged in publishing peer reviewed papers and the like (as I am, although not in the area of Climate science) you realise quickly research is focused on areas that have considerable state funding behind them. It doesn't take a vast conspiracy of evil, cackling Dr. Frankensteins--as Scofflaw suggests--to recognise that this will have an impact on the picture emerging from the data; especially when coupled with the state's own machinations: 50,000,000 Climate refugees by 2010!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,915 ✭✭✭MungBean


    Valmont wrote: »
    My point is that we should treat the claims of government and corporations with equal scepticism. You don't believe corporations care about the planet and the people who live on it; I don't believe the modern state does either.

    The state reacts to issues for the benefit of the state (the citizens who comprise that state and the environment they live in).

    A corporation reacts to issues for the benefit of the corporations (people with financial interest in that corporation).

    Are you saying that the states line on climate change is agenda driven to benefit something or someone outside of the state ? Or are you just saying your ideology doesnt support government making these decisions and your "sceptical" for that purpose reason regardless of what facts they base their actions on ?

    Some people dont believe corporations care about the planet and people living on it because we know their true motives. We have reason to believe that their primary focus is on profit. And in this thread we have seen mention of how they try to protect those profits by attacking anything that threatens it.

    What reason have you to claim the states line on climate change is based on something other than the welfare of the people in that state and the environment in which they live ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Sounds like the Koch brothers are trying to distance themselves from it.

    “Our giving to the Heartland Institute has been repeatedly misrepresented in recent stories by the media as reaching into the hundreds of thousands of dollars. It’s unfortunate that those reporting on the matter did not seek the facts as they would have found the Charles Koch Foundation provided $25,000 to the Heartland Institute in 2011 for research in healthcare, not climate change, and this was the first and only donation the Foundation made to the institute in more than a decade. The Foundation has made no further commitments of funding to Heartland,” said Tonya Mullins, director of communications for the Foundation.

    Funny how this right wing think tank is actually a PR companies subsidised by the state! Apparently the vast majority of the cash comes from one donor, will be interesting when that name comes out.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Valmont wrote: »
    So when Oil companies are involved they're looking after their bottom line, but when governments are involved it's because they're looking after science, planetary climate, and people's reputations?

    Why the reflexive faith in the benevolence of the state? If the Oil companies have a vested interest in narrative B being pushed, why does the state not have a vested interest in narrative A being pushed?

    Oil companies funding research and literature saying A = Bad
    The state funding research and literature saying B = Good

    amused and titillated,

    V

    It took a decade to persuade governments to take the science seriously, and still all most of them want to do is pay lip service to action, if that. So there isn't a "government versus oil companies" narrative except for you - or, to put it another way, the science is and has been all along independent of the governments.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,087 ✭✭✭Duiske


    This story is really kicking off on the blogosphere today. Peter Gleick has admitted that he conned a HI secretary into sending him the documents, by using a false name. He is also claiming the "fake" document was sent to him by an unknown source. I think Mr Gleick may live to regret getting himself involved in this. For such an intelligent man, he has made a huge error of judgement.

    Gleick's Statement
    Since the release in mid-February of a series of documents related to the internal strategy of the Heartland Institute to cast doubt on climate science, there has been extensive speculation about the origin of the documents and intense discussion about what they reveal. Given the need for reliance on facts in the public climate debate, I am issuing the following statement.

    At the beginning of 2012, I received an anonymous document in the mail describing what appeared to be details of the Heartland Institute’s climate program strategy. It contained information about their funders and the Institute’s apparent efforts to muddy public understanding about climate science and policy. I do not know the source of that original document but assumed it was sent to me because of my past exchanges with Heartland and because I was named in it.

    Given the potential impact however, I attempted to confirm the accuracy of the information in this document. In an effort to do so, and in a serious lapse of my own and professional judgment and ethics, I solicited and received additional materials directly from the Heartland Institute under someone else’s name. The materials the Heartland Institute sent to me confirmed many of the facts in the original document, including especially their 2012 fundraising strategy and budget. I forwarded, anonymously, the documents I had received to a set of journalists and experts working on climate issues. I can explicitly confirm, as can the Heartland Institute, that the documents they emailed to me are identical to the documents that have been made public. I made no changes or alterations of any kind to any of the Heartland Institute documents or to the original anonymous communication.

    I will not comment on the substance or implications of the materials; others have and are doing so. I only note that the scientific understanding of the reality and risks of climate change is strong, compelling, and increasingly disturbing, and a rational public debate is desperately needed. My judgment was blinded by my frustration with the ongoing efforts — often anonymous, well-funded, and coordinated — to attack climate science and scientists and prevent this debate, and by the lack of transparency of the organizations involved. Nevertheless I deeply regret my own actions in this case. I offer my personal apologies to all those affected.

    Peter Gleick

    Heartland Institute's responce.

    Earlier this evening, Peter Gleick, a prominent figure in the global warming movement, confessed to stealing electronic documents from The Heartland Institute in an attempt to discredit and embarrass a group that disagrees with his views.

    Gleick’s crime was a serious one. The documents he admits stealing contained personal information about Heartland staff members, donors, and allies, the release of which has violated their privacy and endangered their personal safety.

    An additional document Gleick represented as coming from The Heartland Institute, a forged memo purporting to set out our strategies on global warming, has been extensively cited by newspapers and in news releases and articles posted on Web sites and blogs around the world. It has caused major and permanent damage to the reputations of The Heartland Institute and many of the scientists, policy experts, and organizations we work with.

    A mere apology is not enough to undo the damage.

    In his statement, Gleick claims he committed this crime because he believed The Heartland Institute was preventing a “rational debate” from taking place over global warming. This is unbelievable. Heartland has repeatedly asked for real debate on this important topic. Gleick himself was specifically invited to attend a Heartland event to debate global warming just days before he stole the documents. He turned down the invitation.

    Gleick also claims he did not write the forged memo, but only stole the documents to confirm the content of the memo he received from an anonymous source. This too is unbelievable. Many independent commentators already have concluded the memo was most likely written by Gleick.

    We hope Gleick will make a more complete confession in the next few days.

    We are consulting with legal counsel to determine our next steps and plan to release a more complete statement about the situation tomorrow. In the meantime, we ask again that publishers, bloggers, and Web site hosts take the stolen and fraudulent documents off their sites, remove defamatory commentary based on them, and issue retractions.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    Duiske wrote: »
    This story is really kicking off on the blogosphere today. Peter Gleick has admitted that he conned a HI secretary into sending him the documents, by using a false name. He is also claiming the "fake" document was sent to him by an unknown source. I think Mr Gleick may live to regret getting himself involved in this. For such an intelligent man, he has made a huge error of judgement.

    Gleick's Statement



    Heartland Institute's responce.

    Stealing? They sent them.

    The HI's faux outrage is stomach churning.

    However, I see the defence has again been shifted, away from the fact the documents exist, away from the allegation that one document was a fake and onto the man himself.

    Gleick deserves a medal.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,334 ✭✭✭RichieC


    We're likely to see such faux outrage from the same folks who lauded the email hacking of the climate scientists back in 2009.


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