Hi vis discussion thread (read post #1)

tomasrojo · 21-02-2014 11:11am

goslie wrote: »

I'm new to all this cycling/ commuting. I commute 50 kms per day into St. Stephens Green.

My thoughts are this: I have 7 lights; 2 on helmet, 1 front of bike, 2 rear of bike and 2 LED reflective bands around both legs, I also wear Hi-vis (and a helmet but that is a different debate). Why, you may ask? Because I have a wife & kids and I want to go home every night to see them, and so I want to minimise the dangers as much as possible to which I am exposed daily. I believe that the more chances I have of me being seen, increases my chances of returning home.

Sometimes I think it is the people that don't wear safety gear in general are the ones with fewer responsibilities to others, e.g. family. These are just my feelings, its just what I do to be as safe as possible.

I, also, from my own observations over the past 6 months know for sure that I can see hi-vis wearing cyclists from further away than non-wearing.

Why don't you have eight lights?

Once you do, come back and I'll ask you why you don't have nine.

droidus · 21-02-2014 11:13am

tomasrojo wrote: »

Why don't you have eight lights?

Once you do, come back and I'll ask you why you don't have nine.

9 lights and a sumo suit. Anything else is irresponsible.

tomasrojo · 21-02-2014 11:24am

I'm often reminded of Office Space when the subject of conspicuity aids comes up:

Stan, Chotchkie's Manager: We need to talk about your flair.

Joanna: Really? I... I have fifteen pieces on. I, also...

Stan, Chotchkie's Manager: Well, okay. Fifteen is the minimum, okay?

Joanna: Okay.

Stan, Chotchkie's Manager: Now, you know it's up to you whether or not you want to just do the bare minimum. Or... well, like Brian, for example, has thirty seven pieces of flair, okay. And a terrific smile.

Joanna: Okay. So you... you want me to wear more?

Stan, Chotchkie's Manager: Look. Joanna.

Joanna: Yeah.

Stan, Chotchkie's Manager: People can get a cheeseburger anywhere, okay? They come to Chotchkie's for the atmosphere and the attitude. Okay? That's what the flair's about. It's about fun.

Joanna: Yeah. Okay. So more then, yeah?

Stan, Chotchkie's Manager: Look, we want you to express yourself, okay? Now if you feel that the bare minimum is enough, then okay. But some people choose to wear more and we encourage that, okay? You do want to express yourself, don't you?

doozerie · 21-02-2014 11:33am

goslie wrote:

I have no intention of being offensive or condescending to anyone. It is a personal choice to wear what we want, I don't look down on anyone and I hope nobody looks down on me for my clothes/ gear.

Your earlier post categorised anyone who chooses not to wear hi-viz as someone who has no responsibilities, basically someone who doesn’t care about their own fate or perhaps someone who is actively irresponsible. You now say above that what people wear is personal choice yet you so casually denigrated those that don’t share your choice that it seems clear that as far as you are concerned there is only one socially responsible choice, and that is to wear hi-viz.

That same biased and offensive mindset is conveyed in that nonsense article in yesterday’s Indo, an article that proudly declares that people who don’t wear hi-viz are reprehensible and, further still, pose an actual danger to others. Whether you realise it or not, your own posts convey the impression of someone well along the path to holding people responsible for their own fate if they don’t wear hi-viz - do you really want a society that so casually blames victims?

The Novacastrian · 21-02-2014 11:49am

Your earlier post categorised anyone who chooses not to wear hi-viz as someone who has no responsibilities,

No, it doesn't, my post says:

Sometimes I think it is the people that don't wear safety gear in general are the ones with fewer responsibilities

And I went on to explain, these are my thoughts, sometimes, not all the time. I am not forcing anyone to agree with me, as I say, it's a personal choice.

petethedrummer · 21-02-2014 12:01pm

droidus wrote: »

9 lights and a sumo suit. Anything else is irresponsible.

Do you not have a pulsing audible alarm?

Seweryn · 21-02-2014 12:04pm

goslie wrote: »

I'm new to all this cycling/ commuting. I commute 50 kms per day into St. Stephens Green.

My thoughts are this: I have 7 lights; 2 on helmet, 1 front of bike, 2 rear of bike and 2 LED reflective bands around both legs, I also wear Hi-vis (and a helmet but that is a different debate). Why, you may ask? Because I have a wife & kids and I want to go home every night to see them, and so I want to minimise the dangers as much as possible to which I am exposed daily.

I cover over 50km a day also, however having no kids and no wife I decided one day that I should be OK with only a single high quality headlight and a very good one at the back. I carry a spare rear light and a spare battery for the front light fully charged just in case.
I don't think I would be putting much more stuff on if I had kids instead of a dog and a wife instead of a partner.

I understand your position, but I believe that the most effective way to reduce risk for all cyclists is to encourage more people to cycle. Also using your bike to cycle skilfully and in a vehicular safe manner is the best way of reducing the risks.

The Novacastrian · 21-02-2014 12:05pm

I have this adapted for my bike...

http://simpsonswiki.com/wiki/Everything's_OK_alarm

petethedrummer · 21-02-2014 12:07pm

New RSA lighting strategy for cyclists.

Chips Lovell · 21-02-2014 12:11pm

Cycling is a relatively safe activity.

The number of cyclists killed every year in Ireland is less than 10.

You are more likely to get injured gardening than cycling.

Why don't we have hysterical articles in the Indo warning us that we are foolish and selfish not to take every precaution possible when gardening?

petethedrummer · 21-02-2014 12:12pm

Lumen · 21-02-2014 12:15pm

Seweryn wrote: »

I cover over 50km a day also, however having no kids and no wife I decided one day that I should be OK with only a single high quality headlight and a very good one at the back

I have two kids who act up a bit and a wife who gives me a hard time about not being emotionally available, so I restrict myself to a hub dynamo and single rear flasher in the hope that a serious accident will make them appreciate me more.

When I cycle to see my girlfriend I add an extra two lights because I really want to get there in one piece, but I take them off afterwards to save batteries.

Seweryn · 21-02-2014 12:16pm

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Cycling is a relatively safe activity.

Why don't we have hysterical articles in the Indo warning us that we are foolish and selfish not to take every precaution possible when gardening?

Or... driving. Hundreds of people die in road collisions in this country every year. Non of them use...

doozerie · 21-02-2014 12:42pm

goslie wrote:

And I went on to explain, these are my thoughts, sometimes, not all the time. I am not forcing anyone to agree with me, as I say, it's a personal choice.

My apologies, you are right, you didn’t say people with “no” responsibilities, you cast the nest even broader by saying people with “fewer” responsibilities, thereby encompassing, disparaging, and offending, a larger group of people.

And fewer responsibilities than whom exactly? You clearly have some kind of standard of socially responsible cyclist in mind here that you are comparing against, and that cyclist is one who wears hi-viz. Whether you acknowledge it or not you are declaring that, as far as you are concerned, wearing hi-viz is the norm for cyclists and that anyone who doesn’t wear hi-viz is somehow less responsible, and that kind of thinking is the basis for the belief that such people are not only less (socially) responsible but also themselves culpable in anything that happens to them. That is victim blaming. The fact that you believe this “not all the time” makes it no less damaging and dangerous an attitude.

If you truly want safer roads, try to broaden peoples’ minds - promote empathy and social responsibility on the part of everyone (cyclists and drivers alike). By contrast, dismissing people that don’t wear hi-viz as somehow less socially responsible promotes division, distrust, and discrimination, all of which serves to feed the antagonistic mindset that is a source of many of the dangers in the first place.

The Novacastrian · 21-02-2014 12:49pm

Thank you. You are correct. I am wrong. I apologise wholeheartedly to all I offended.

droidus · 21-02-2014 12:53pm

This is getting complicated. We need some kind of guide to the suitable ratio of safety equipment to responsibility:

Single, no family, no dependents >> No lights, black bike, black clothes, stealth technology
Single with 1 dog >> as above, w/Sam Browne belt
Single with 1 dog, 1 cat and a fish >> Hi-vis jacket, mid-toned clothing
In an on/off again relationship >> Hi-vis jacket, single knog on back
In a serious relationship but not cohabiting >> Hi vis jacket, knog on front and back
Cohabiting with pets >> Hi-vis, decent front and back lights, bright clothing
Married with 1 dependent >> His vis onesie, 2 front lights, 2 back lights
Married with 2+ dependents >> Hi-vis sumo suit, 9+ lights
Polygamist w/5+ dependents >>Hi vis sumo suit, 20+ lights, armoured fluorescent bike
Patriarch of small interrelated community w/50+ members >> As above w/ 4 hi-vis sumo suited, flag waving outriders.

doozerie · 21-02-2014 12:56pm

Lumen wrote:

When I cycle to see my girlfriend I add an extra two lights because I really want to get there in one piece, but I take them off afterwards to save batteries.

I like to pretend that my girlfriend is prettier than your girlfriend by adding an extra *three* lights when I cycle to see her. Someday though some driver will see through my ploy, realising that in reality I only have a single extra light’s level of responsibility (my girlfriend is …ginger!), and they’ll therefore administer death by car as society demands.

RayCun · 21-02-2014 1:45pm

I wear high vis when I'm visiting lumen's girlfriend because I don't want him to notice me

CramCycle · 21-02-2014 1:49pm

doozerie wrote: »

I like to pretend that my girlfriend is prettier than your girlfriend by adding an extra *three* lights when I cycle to see her. Someday though some driver will see through my ploy, realising that in reality I only have a single extra light’s level of responsibility (my girlfriend is …ginger!), and they’ll therefore administer death by car as society demands.

Never met Lumens girl, but yours is really pretty, I remember riding with her in Blessington all evening. Pretty and fit. I had to stop but she kept going...

...in the club league race obviously

RainyDay · 21-02-2014 2:06pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Wearing hi-viz makes you invisible.

If you want to gain access to places you shouldn't be apparently all you need to do is wear hi-viz and carry a toolbox , chances are no one will even look at you.

Seriously we've all walked past workmen in hi-viz and not even noticed them.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0528/131588-moffettb/
http://www.gra.cc/garda_shooting_25-09-07.shtml
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/man-shot-in-the-arm-while-sitting-in-car-near-airport-139848.html

Spot the trend?

CramCycle wrote: »

Never met Lumens girl, but yours is really pretty, I remember riding with her in Blessington all evening. Pretty and fit. I had to stop but she kept going...
...in the club league race obviously

Careful now - http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0220/505522-black-tailed-antechinus/

Paddigol · 21-02-2014 2:34pm

Wow. Most of you are on here a lot LOT longer than I.

I have to admire your perseverance.

Already for me, just seeing a thread title containing the words "lights", "helmets" and "hi-viz" gives me pulsating head-aches. I like to 'go to last page' of these sort of threads to confirm that the world still is mad.

The Novacastrian · 21-02-2014 2:47pm

Thank you. You are correct. I am wrong. I apologise wholeheartedly to all I offended.

Sarcasm detectors not working? Someday I must intentionally try and wind you up!

Capt'n Midnight · 21-02-2014 8:36pm

goslie wrote: »

I, also, from my own observations over the past 6 months know for sure that I can see hi-vis wearing cyclists from further away than non-wearing.

Look again.

hi-viz in the day time isn't always stand out.

hi-viz at night relies on reflective strips , look off axis as well

lights are best of course.

doozerie · 21-02-2014 9:40pm

From: Men armed with gun and crowbar rob bank in Dublin city centre:

The first raider was described as 5ft 11inches in height, with a heavy build and wore a hi-visibility jacket and black woolly hat and carried a crowbar.

What a moral dilemma! Clearly that raider is a model citizen, as he had the consideration to others to wear a hi-viz jacket. And yet he is clearly a toe rag that has no qualms about threatening others for his own ends. So should I love him or despise him? I'm conflicted. Curse you, morally ambiguous hi-viz!

robertxxx · 21-02-2014 10:17pm

I cycle with 3 front lights one point in front and the other two pointing at me so it really lights up my yellow hivis jacket.

Capt'n Midnight · 22-02-2014 1:07pm

Micilin Muc wrote: »

Surely silver high-viz reflective material is more effective on unlit country roads than on city streets?

Yes reflective material works, no it doesn't work so well off-axis, and mostly hi-viz is about brightly yellow and doesn't always include good quality reflective materials

buffalo · 22-02-2014 6:06pm

goslie wrote: »

I, also, from my own observations over the past 6 months know for sure that I can see hi-vis wearing cyclists from further away than non-wearing.

How do you know there weren't loads of hi-viz wearing cyclists that you didn't see?

Nwm2 · 22-02-2014 6:47pm

I wear hi-vis a lot. Not the RSA-type pedestrian ones. I have a couple of hi-vis jerseys, and couple of hi-vis jackets, and a hi-vis gilet which I wear a lot. I even have a hi-vis helmet rain cover.

I'll often wear white, if not wearing true hi-vis.

Part of my calculation is that I'm protecting myself against the texter who is glancing up occasionally and giving him/her that chance to see me. Not sure how that is captured in the test of effectiveness. I also know myself that I spot hi-vis stuff much earlier than lo-vis when I'm in the car.

At night, I wear reflective stripes on my body, LED lights on my ankles, two bright lights pointed forward, one red light behind, sometimes two.

For all that, I am against making these things mandatory, in daylight.

tomasrojo · 22-02-2014 7:02pm

robertxxx wrote: »

I cycle with 3 front lights one point in front and the other two pointing at me so it really lights up my yellow hivis jacket.

Joke? Sorry if I'm being slow.

tomasrojo · 19-09-2014 10:45am

Topical ...

Hi vis discussion thread (read post #1)

Comments