Just a few thoughts....

maitri · 09-06-2006 3:44pm

MeditationMom wrote:

Ahh, Maitri, if you were a sleepy, purring little cat, resting in my lap while I were sitting in my chair, sipping a nice hot cup of tea, I would whisper my secret into your ear- as long as you would keep it to yourself, which of course you would.

Oh, as a cat resting in your lap, I would probably be more interested in the tone of your voice (and in whether you scratched just that right spot under my ear) that in the contents of words, anyway.

MeditationMom wrote:

I see myself as a Buddha, albeit a Buddha in a closet.

That's interesting!

But... in a way... aren't we all?
I found this quote in a Sutra called the Prajnaparamita (I am probably too found of quotes, but anyway):

"all objects and structures, just as they are in the present moment, are themselves enlightenment, both the way and the goal, being perfectly transparent to the ineffable."

Regards,

Maitri

PS: That was interesting informatian about the fylgja, Hairyheretic! Thanks! You seem to know much more about the topic than I do.

Asiaprod · 09-06-2006 3:46pm

Acer wrote:

Since staring out on this great journey, the concept of Esho Funi (Japanese for the oneness of self and environment) has from the start, been the easiest for me to understand and accept.

Hi acer and welcome. Esho Funi, I guess that put us in the same group NHRK.
Since you know of Esho Funi, you also know that we are taught that great changes start with little steps, like planting a tree:) Ecology and nature is not just the domain of Buddhist, it concerns everyone, and many are already fighting Global Warming in a million little way every day. As with each of us, it start with you my friend. As bluewolf mentioned, offer us some solutions.
Here are mine:
Separate your garbage.
Re-use plastic bags when you go to the supermarket. Better still, don't use plastic bags but bring a bag with you.
Put on an extra Jumper instead of turning up the heat.
Use the car less, buy a push bike
Give up smoling
Don't hold a BBQ in your back garden.
And a million more thing I am sure you can think of. Every little step counts.

And on a larger scale, lobby your local minister.
Join a green group
Go demonstrate.

In short Acer, there are a thousand things one can do. Its really down to you and how strongly you feel about it. I do what little things I can and I chant that man in his wisdom will realize his folly. I hate to say this but Nuclear energy is probably the way forward, but first we have to find a safe way to dispose of the waste and I do not mean just blasting it into space to aimlessly go and pollute somewhere else. We might be able to launch it into the sun.
It is a fight worth fighting, but you and I know it starts with ourselves and with lots of Ds.

MeditationMom · 10-06-2006 3:58am

hairyheretic- thank you for sending this - it does sound much more like shamanism which is more of a psychological system. Very interesting though.

Asiaprod wrote:

Then you are no different than I.

Did I suggest that I was? I didn't mean to. Does this mean I have to get a tatoo, now? Now, that would scare me.;)

Asiaprod wrote:

I declared my goal to attain enlightenment exactly 21 years ago.

I am not sure I understand. Is it a ceremony or rite of passage in your school of Buddhism? Is it to a master, like taking sannyas, which would be more like a surrender than a declaration - or is it to a community, or both? Please explain so I can understand.

Asiaprod wrote:

The moment he becomes anything other than an enlightened person.

"Anything other" enlightenened? Yes, he is enlightened. But why say "anything other". You say it, and maybe I am misunderstanding, as if calling Jesus the Son of God is elevating him above enlightenment.

Being "God's Son" is less than being enlightened.

Jesus was "God's Son" the same way we are "God's sons and daughters." Instead of thinking "he was human like us" we need to think "we are God's Sons/Daughters, like him.
He was definitely enlightened when he said "My father and I are One". This is a statement of Enlightenment. Some were even more bold, or clumbsy, depends how you look at it, and said "I am God" ( I have to look up who it was,a sufi if I recall ) and immediately were stoned to death.

Buddha and Jesus are equally enlightened. And so are many others. Enlightenment has no "levels". One either is or is not. It gets confusing because some people who follow the teachings of enlightened ones, live enlightened lives, like some of the people you mentioned in a previous post, but are not actually enlightened. And some enlightened people live in ways you could not live like, if you were not enlightened yet, and hoped to become enlightened still. I hope this expresses it right what I am trying to say.

It is as if the enlightened one were the only one who can see among blind people. If he or she is like Buddha or Jesus he will be driven by compassion as all the blind people are suffering, bumping into walls and furniture. He will give teachings- to slow down, to help each other, to meditate, to become more sensitive to the surroundings in order to not hit things full force etc. People will either suspect that there is something different about this person and take a chance and follow the instructions or say- he is just like us, why should he know better, I'll do what I want and find out for myself. It is not a problem, just siily to refuse guidance if it is available. Now imagine, someone else "wakes up", gets enlightened, is not blind anymore and sees- he or she will look at the teacher, they see each other, instantly they recognise each other's state of non-blindness and the nature of the whole situation. All of a sudden everything makes sence. All the previous teachings of all the enlightened ones who have gone before, all the mistakes one has made along the way, become clear. And one laughs.

If one declares "I can see" it is either an inspiration or an affront to others, it depends on them- one either ends up stoned to death, on the cross, or protected and revered in an ashram or sangha, as Buddha was. Even declaring "I want to see" like you did can get one into a lot of trouble, as it indirectly brings up the fact of blindness. That is why it is so courageous. More courageous actually than declaring "I can see" after enlightenment, as fear of death is gone already.

So one cannot make any distinction between Jesus and Buddha, and many others. One can certainly argue about the differences in their teaching methods after enlightnement and the fruits of their efforts.

The way Buddha and Jesus taught after enlightenment was very different. Most people who get enlightened, especially women, avoid teaching or don't have skills to do so. The ones who decide to teach, all have very individual ways. Some simply- after their own enlightenment- understand why their master's methods worked, and become part of a lineage and continue to use the same method, in effect borrowing the same method that helped them. Others develop a method on their own, using the language and methaphores that work in their day and time, especially if they "where a light onto themselves" and analyse how it happend for them.

To clarify the issue of my mentioning Jesus so much- I was raised RC and to this day have not found any issues with anything Jesus ever is reported to have said. But, by the time I was 12 I found most of the teachings of the RCC so bizarre that I went my own way. It took me into Psychology, Christian Science, Shamanism, Sufism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Tantra, Taoism, Macrobiotic Philosphy, all while being on my real path as a wife and mother. Wife and Mother - instead of running off to live in an ashram or sangha - which is what I wanted to do - became my often very difficult, but only meaningful, and ultimately successful, path.

I had the help and guidance of three enlightened masters along the way. An Indian, Korean and Japanese one. In the end it was a Koan that broke the veil, in combination with the absolute trust and love I had for my master, that allowed me to "jump" into absolute non-existence, which is Nirvana, on October 21, 1985. Now I know it is possible for anyone and Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed and many much less known ones, are our brothers.

It is hard for me to imagine that this could have happended through the teachings or guidance of the RCC, in my case, but possible I guess. If I had grown up with all the silly stories of Buddhism, of Buddha being born from under his mother's armpit and such, maybe Christianity would have been the helpful and more trustworthy path for me. Ultimetely I have to give the RCC a lot of credit in my life, even though it was so long ago and they surely would have thrown me out or burned me at the stake, if there were any stakes left.

MeditationMom · 10-06-2006 3:59am

In the end it was the Buddhist trick of the Koan, combined with the Hindu tradition of surrendering to a Master in absolute Trust and Love, plus the help of a Japanese Master confirming what had happened, that I owe my gratitude to. Coming full circle, I recognise Jesus now as the same as Buddha, Lao Tsu, Krishna, Michio Kushi, Osho, Bo-In Lee, Ramana Maharshi, Mohammed, and others encountered along the way. My love and devotion for Jesus is and always has been with me. His followers, or at least the people who made a church organization out of his life and teachings, have done the same messy job of it as any other religion, maybe worse. I am not a historian and cannot judge the level of cruelties commited by the various religions. All these organizations, just as all of us, will have to endure what they are due, their Karma, if you will, and I am not concerned with them at all.

The things Jesus said are more ingrained in my brain from the teachings I received in childhood. There were two priests and one nun, who taught me well, and who will have my life-long gratitude. The Catholic Teachings, if understood as all being lessons and stories about Love and Trust, are extremely valuable on a path towards enlightenment. What is unique about Chritianity, and quite lovable, is that enlightenment is not a goal. Becoming more trusting and loving is. Enlightenment is a promise in Christianity, when Jesus says: "You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free".

Enlightenment becomes a side effect, rather than a goal. Having Enlightenment as a goal is very tricky, except for the courage it takes to declare that goal. The intensity of this desire can serve as a jumping board, but without the love and the trust that is required, it is unattainable. "Thy will be done" is a very helpful attitude to let go and let God, when it comes time for enlightenment.

For you, Asiaprod, intellectually, Buddha or Lao Tsu may already have proven to be more helpful than Jesus, as they were for me, as much as you may also love and understand Jesus. But it seems to me that you also have an inner Guru, who is beautiful, independent, full of purpose Snow Leopard.

Asiaprod wrote:

How does one describe something that is an emotional thing. The best I could say in words would be
Over a vast a distance we met, beauty, purpose and independence was perceived. We felt as Kin

Independence speaks of courage, purpose of determination and commitment, all very important on this path towards enlightnement. Beauty speaks of love and trust. The more Love and Trust, the more Grace and Beauty there is. It is "your kin".

I don't know you, so I don't want to be presumptious, but maybe you don't see this beauty, purpose and independence as your attributes to the level that they exist in you. Obviously you see these qualities in yourself to some extent, and it gives you the experience of "kinship", but someday you will find no more "vast distance" in between. It is good that there was a "meeting" already, so for a while the distance was almost gone. One more step is needed. In the last moments before enlightenment there would be an eye to eye moment with your inner Guru (Jesus, Buddha or Snow Leopard - it doesn't matter, it all depends on where you place your deepest love and trust) that gives you the courage, and then you need to jump into the "void of absolute non-existence" where there are no "two", and no distance of even the tiniest fraction. Then you could say "Snow Leopard and I are One". For Jesus it was "Father". For me it was "Osho". Your inner Guru is the gate through which you enter.

"My Father and I are One" is one of the most misunderstood statements in Christianity. I am getting quite interested in studying the fruits of Christianity - I am counting on Brian's help there - Hi Brian - to find the ones who became enlightened through Christianity. Many lived enlightened lives, no question about that, and so hard to do without enlightenment, but it is only by their statements that one can tell whether they've been blessed with the innermost treasure of enlightenment, truth, absolute freedom.

Asiaprod wrote:

Just for the record, I believe a definition of enlightenment can only be approximated by what it is not. It is not the clinging existence with which man is understood to be afflicted. It is not any sort of becoming. It has no origin or end. It is not made or fabricated. It has no dualities, so that it cannot be described in words. It has no parts that may be distinguished one from another. It is not a subjective state of consciousness. It is not conditioned on or by anything else.

All these statement of what enlightenment is not, are so beautiful and correct. ( If they are yours, from your very own experience and not from an intelligent, intellectual understanding after all your years of introspection and contemplation- you prove to be enlightened). But even statements of what it is not, hint at something. So one can also describe enlightenment in positive terms. Take "It has no origin or end." You can say positively "It is beyond time and space, eternal, infinite. It is even beyond the idea of eternity and infinity". "There is no movement in it, yet all moves out of it" "It is who you are, but you are not" "There is no enlightenment, but enlightenment" and so on. It is more poetry than anything else. Desriptions, negative or positive, hinting at something that is beyond words indeed.

What I tried to say was that there is no person on this earth who has attained enlightenment.

This is not true, and I am wondering who or which school teaches this. Could you explain this a little? Maybe our definitions are off. Remember all religious organizations have an intrest in declaring that only their "leader" be it Buddha or Jesus or Mohammed are the truly enlightened ones, or only son of God, etc and they are waiting for their return or re-inkarnation, therefore there is noone on this earth like them right now. This is nothing but politics.

Asiaprod wrote:

There are indeed enlightened persons on this earth i.e Gandi, the Dala Lama, Desmond Tutu and many others on Boards i.e. . However, this higher life condition should never be confused with the ultimate goal of attaining enlightenment which is something entirely different.

This is the same confusion. Gandhi, for example was not enlightened, Desmond Tutu I don't know well enough to say, but I doubt it, the Dalai Lama denies being enlightened but some of his statements prove otherwise, if they are actually his statements and not just intellectually understood, quoted scripture. All of them live great lives as if enlightened, which makes it confusing. Their faith and strength, courage and wisdom are beyond what is normal without enlightenment. I can see that we may have trouble with the word or definition of enlightenment, so I need to understand better what you mean in each of the above sentences and which teachings they come from. It is one reason I quoted Jesus: "You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free" in order to take us out of this idea of enlightenment.

Other "names" for the un-namable, besides Enlightenment, that are used are Nirvana, Liberation, Self-Realization ( in the religious sence, not as in finding yourself in California

Asiaprod wrote:

we all have to take monumental steps in our life. Fear of rejection and ridicule are indeed human fears that prevent us fulfilling our role. Our destiny is fluid, we create it moment by moment, one cannot escape ones destiny.
I look forward to you coming out of the closet

Thank you, Asiaprod.

Asiaprod wrote:

Fear of rejection and ridicule

Yes, these fears were there. Now it is more about the responsibility, the commitment, the time - as if becoming a mother all over again. Fear disappears with love and trust, and us mothers are pretty good with that.

I am off to cross the country all the way to Rhode Island in two days and don't know what my internet capabilities will be when I get there, it is pretty remote there. If I disappear from the Forum after tomorrow, that is why and not that I have run back into the closet;) Love to you all.

MeditationMom · 10-06-2006 8:55am

Maitri wrote:

Oh, as a cat resting in your lap, I would probably be more interested in the tone of your voice (and in whether you scratched just that right spot under my ear) that in the contents of words, anyway.

Nothing else would be needed

All words are empty, but don't tell Asiaprod so he reads my almost infinite post.

Maitri wrote:

But... in a way... aren't we all?

Yes, and many of us can understand this and become conscious of it through meditation, prayer, insight, reflection, contemplation, time spent in nature, or as Asiaprod mentions several times, kinship with all beings, but then there is one more step. It is an inner step into complete annihilation, only possible with great trust and love in whoever you can have this complete trust in.

(If any of this sounds like a suggestion of suicide to anyone reading this on Boards - this is absolutely not what it is. It is all about an inner journey - and, yes, you have to "die before you die", if you seek enlightenment. If any insight gives you the suggestion of suicide, it is not the right one and you are on the wrong track)

Maitri wrote:

I found this quote in a Sutra called the Prajnaparamita (I am probably too found of quotes, but anyway):

"all objects and structures, just as they are in the present moment, are themselves enlightenment, both the way and the goal, being perfectly transparent to the ineffable."

Keep those quotes coming. They are beautiful and always so appropriate. You choose well. This quote again is proof of that. Your understanding is very deep. No need to seek enlightenment for you. It will not make much difference in you. Would just be the icing on the cake in your case.

This quote could only have been said or written by an enlightened one. To him or her everything and everyone is already enlightened, absolutely perfect in the very present and this perfection shines through all that there is. No imperfection or evil can exist within this obvious perfection.

Acer · 10-06-2006 10:53am

Hi MeditationMom

Great insights on what enlightenment is not (and from Asiaprod of course).

Within my limited understanding, enlightenment is surely a constant eternal process and does not result in attaining a final enlightenment. Is an elightened person someone who has a deepr insight into the true nature of existence than the rest of us? If so, I have met many enlightened people living enlightened lives but all of them, being human, have the same demons and fears and stuff that we all have to deal with.

Buddhism teaches that the enlightened buddha nature exists within all sentient and non-sentient beings and things. All of the the ten basic life states.. Hell, Hunger, Animality, Anger, Humanity, Tranquility, Learning, Realisation, Bodhisatva, Buddhahood are all mutually inclusive and in no way are seperate from one and other. Everyone and everything has the buddha nature. Evil also has the enlightened buddha nature. Even murderers love their children.

I believe enlightenment or elevating our basic life condition can only be done through compassionate thoughts, words and deeds but that certainly ain't easy!!

Asiaprod · 10-06-2006 4:54pm

MeditationMom wrote:

Nothing else would be needed
All words are empty, but don't tell Asiaprod so he reads my almost infinite post.

Haha, you wer'nt joking, but they are excellent. I am looking forward to a very interesting experienc for all of us. Will take some time to digest all you have written, Have a good trip. love back to you.
<hope my cat arrived, he often meanders off:)>

maitri · 12-06-2006 2:36pm

Hi MeditationMom!

Thanks for all the good words!

MeditationMom wrote:

but then there is one more step. It is an inner step into complete annihilation, only possible with great trust and love in whoever you can have this complete trust in.

Oh…hmm…well… and there we hit right on my weak point, I think…

Do you mean like a “regular spiritual teacher” and the kind of teacher-student relationship that you can have with him/her?

Sometimes it seems like life is the only teacher for me.

But of course, sometimes I meet people who teach me (unknowingly, I think) so much, that without them ever knowing it (I think) they function as spiritual teachers, but then life “separates” them from me. (Lesson over... already?)

So Osho was your teacher? I have one of his books. Cool!

Hope everything is well on Rhode Island!

Hi Acer!

Acer wrote:

I believe enlightenment or elevating our basic life condition can only be done through compassionate thoughts, words and deeds

I believe you are right!

:)Love to all of you,

Maitri/Ingrid

Asiaprod · 12-06-2006 3:13pm

maitri wrote:

Do you mean like a “regular spiritual teacher” and the kind of teacher-student relationship that you can have with him/her?

Sometimes it seems like life is the only teacher for me.

Maitri, you always ask such wonderful questions, it is a joy.
The answer is yes...but!
I think what MeditationMom is trying to explain is a term we use called Master and disciple. Usually, people throw their hands in the air when they hear this term and misunderstand what is really being said. Let me try to explain.
The function of a master or teacher is to teach the disciple or student. The master teaches on the understanding that disciple will eventually know more than the teacher and will in turn switch places and become in fact the master to the master who now becomes the disciple. The master only progresses when the disciple surpasses him. Very complex to understand I know. Its is if you like a symbiosis, what one gains so too does the other. We call this Kenzoku, or a sharing of spirit

maitri · 13-06-2006 6:49pm

Hi Asia!

Thanks for your kind answer!

Asiaprod wrote:

The function of a master or teacher is to teach the disciple or student. The master teaches on the understanding that disciple will eventually know more than the teacher and will in turn switch places and become in fact the master to the master who now becomes the disciple. The master only progresses when the disciple surpasses him. Very complex to understand I know. Its is if you like a symbiosis, what one gains so too does the other. We call this Kenzoku, or a sharing of spirit

The concept of Kenzoku - sharing of spirit - sounds lovely!

And I really mean that, but – I have to ask something I have been wondering about:
But doesn't it very easily become a kind of "room" for "old parent-issues"?
The reason why I ask this question is that I wonder if it isn't a way very much like giving somebody (the master) the kind of authority (also emotionally) that a father or a mother has over a small child? And then I guess it will be easy to transfer old attachment and feelings that one had for ones parents as a child to that person.

Or am I misunderstanding how it works? I just wonder: Isn't it very easy to become very dependent of that person who is your teacher instead of growing up?

Of course it might also be good to transfer all those old parent-things (that a lot of people carry with them... I know I do, for sure) to a person that is "safe" and well-meaning and then maybe be more "free" in other relationships?

I don't ask because I believe that to have happened to you, or to any of you, I ask because it is what I fear would very easily happen to me if I entered such a relationship. Can you really - as a grown up person - trust your life into the hands of another human being? Doesn't life teach us (well...hmm...me… at least) again and again that it never works out?

Or is that not what the master-disciple relationship is about?

Please don't feel that this is criticism - I know far too little about this to criticize - it is not meant that way. I ask because I really want to understand how it works.

And also because I have seen so-called “spiritual fathers and mothers” of different traditions (I know too little of Buddhism to know how this really works in Buddhist communities) who misuse their authority, and believe themselves entitled to make too many concrete decisions for their followers. At least that is how I see it.

Asiaprod · 14-06-2006 1:11pm

maitri wrote:

The concept of Kenzoku - sharing of spirit - sounds lovely!

And I really mean that, but – I have to ask something I have been wondering about:
But doesn't it very easily become a kind of "room" for "old parent-issues"?
The reason why I ask this question is that I wonder if it isn't a way very much like giving somebody (the master) the kind of authority (also emotionally) that a father or a mother has over a small child? And then I guess it will be easy to transfer old attachment and feelings that one had for ones parents as a child to that person. Or am I misunderstanding how it works? I just wonder: Isn't it very easy to become very dependent of that person who is your teacher instead of growing up?

Hi maitri, as always from you good questions.
All the things you have said are very valid, but they do not apply to a real master-disciple relationship, if they did it would not be this kind of relationship. Their is no negative dependence, it is a reunion. Think in terms of Plato's Symposium. that people were joined as two. Something split them, so they spend thir lives looking for their soul mate somewhere.
I have been very lucky in my life in that I have had 3 of these relationships all going at the same time
1 to a Roman Catholic Jesuit Theologan (18 years, he is now dead)
2 to a swedish atheist (20 years, also now dead)
3 to an American Buddhist (21 years and still going strong)
We all developed meaningful relationships where we both studied from and taught to each other. We were best friend, stayed at each others homes and were treated as members of the family. We are still the Guardians for each others kids. We shared a connection that spans time and space, we all knew that we had met before in a different life. Yes one was a priest and one was an atheist. There is an underlying meaning to Kenzoku and to put it very bluntly, it means to find again someone who was very close to you in a previous existence. The greater the kenzoku the the closer the past connection. This is not restricted to Buddhism, how many times have you heard a person refer to their soul mate. Or seen a relationship that goes on for ever even though the individual parties have their own boy or girlfriends/husbands or wives? This is Kenzoku. When it moves to a religious or Buddhist stage it becomes a Master-Disciple relationship. It is a natural phenomenon, but not all are lucky enough to find it. The Zen student and Zen master is supposed to follow this path, but I am not Zen so I cannot answer. I am sure we have all seen shades of kenzoku in our lives, I am sure you have too.
There is no negative dependence with kenzoku, just a great feeling of warm, trust and care. Its wonderful.

maitri · 14-06-2006 2:32pm

Something like "kindred spirits"?
Like one who “belongs to the race that knows Joseph"? (Expression from "Anne of Green Gables")
Or: “really good lasting friends"?

I know such relationships

, but I wouldn't kall it "sharing a soul". (Even though the feeling with such friends might be we are cubs from the same litter;) ) More like sharing a brain, sometimes. Or like "being loyal and faithful and growing side by side".

I didn't know that masters and disciples were thought of as soul-mates. That was totally new to me. Thanks for interesting information! As allways.

But Plato was speaking of what draws people to romantic relationships, didn't he?
I don't know if it's the same thing. Or is it?

Asiaprod · 14-06-2006 2:57pm

maitri wrote:

I know such relationships , but I wouldn't kall it "sharing a soul". (Even though the feeling with such friends might be we are cubs from the same litter;) ) More like sharing a brain, sometimes. Or like "being loyal and faithful and growing side by side".

Or even like soul mates:)

I didn't know that masters and disciples were thought of as soul-mates. That was totally new to me. Thanks for interesting information! As allways.

This is the definition I understand best but it will probably change from school to school. I an lucky to have it so I know it is real. I have gone down the road of shared memories and experiences and really have been shocked by the similarities;)

[quote}But Plato was speaking of what draws people to romantic relationships, didn't he?
I don't know if it's the same thing. Or is it?[/QUOTE]

Exactly..........or is it?

This is one of those rare occasions where I actually begin to understand some of the Zen teachings. Think back to the Koen we debated only yesterday about the full cup. Nothing becomes clear when the cup is full;)

maitri · 15-06-2006 5:10pm

Asiaprod wrote:

This is one of those rare occasions where I actually begin to understand some of the Zen teachings.

I am happy to hear that!

Asiaprod wrote:

Think back to the Koen we debated only yesterday about the full cup. Nothing becomes clear when the cup is full.

And I'll take a good look at the cup.

With Metta,

from Maitri

MeditationMom · 19-06-2006 9:55am

Acer wrote:

Is an elightened person someone who has a deepr insight into the true nature of existence than the rest of us?

Yes.
It is actual knowing, beyond any doubt, replacing even the deepest insight or understanding one could attain on one's own with one's mind. It is an event of complete annihilation and therefore a total re-union with existence.
It is not an experience of the body, mind or spirit, but an event that happens to itself. And you're it!:D

...the rest of us

We are all one. Noone left behind, running ahead, above or below, "the rest of us" is all of us. Imagine all of us at a big sleep over. In the morning one wakes up. Then another. Everyone will wake up. There is nothing inferior or superior about being asleep or awake. You wake up when you've had enough sleep. Not before. There is something deep within you that decides.

Acer wrote:

Within my limited understanding, enlightenment is surely a constant eternal process and does not result in attaining a final enlightenment.

Your "limited understanding" still is understanding. And not bad either!
How would you say it is limited?
Because you have not read enough about it, or thought about it enough, or something quite different, like not actually being enlightened yet?;)

For example, at which point does a woman become a mother? When does this motherhood start or end? When she is born as a girl with thousands of eggs? When she mothers her dolls in childhood? When she becomes fertile? When she gets pregnant? When she gives birth? When she has been a mother for some time?
And does it ever end? Does she ever stop learning as a mother? Or stop growing in love? Is she that different from other women who have not given birth? Can't some of those women actually be better mothers, maybe to adopted children, a pet or a business, than her?

In summary- you become a mother when you give birth. Yes, it is the end to the level of your previous state, but it is more of a beginning than anything else.

You become enlightenend when enlightenment occurs. It is a beginning more than the achievement of a final goal.

Acer wrote:

If so, I have met many enlightened people living enlightened lives but all of them, being human, have the same demons and fears and stuff that we all have to deal with.

Correct me if I am wrong, but what you seem to say here is - "so what, there is nothing special about enlightenment, no difference between Buddha and Acer?" -
and you would be right!
And, of course, you would be wrong, also.

Acer wrote:

Buddhism teaches that the enlightened buddha nature exists within all sentient and non-sentient beings and things. All of the the ten basic life states.. Hell, Hunger, Animality, Anger, Humanity, Tranquility, Learning, Realisation, Bodhisatva, Buddhahood are all mutually inclusive and in no way are seperate from one and other. Everyone and everything has the buddha nature. Evil also has the enlightened buddha nature. Even murderers love their children.

This is of course true. But only an enlightened one could have made this statement, and did so. So what would have to occur for you to be able to make this statement yourself, with absolute certainty? You yourself would have to become one with existence, enlightened, if we want to use this loaded word, to know that this is true.

Acer wrote:

I believe enlightenment or elevating our basic life condition can only be done through compassionate thoughts, words and deeds but that certainly ain't easy!!

Indeed, it is not easy. A little easier with a lot of trust and love in existence. You can also become enlightenend just because it is time, without any effort at all.

"Enlightenment" and "elevating our basic life condition" though, are two different things and should not be confused. Enlightenment cannot be "done". You can live an enlightened life, as if enlightened, by practising compassion, trust, love, in word and deed, but it is not in itself enlightenment.

Maitri wrote:

Oh…hmm…well… and there we hit right on my weak point, I think…Sometimes it seems like life is the only teacher for me.

Is this "weak point" of yours that you cannot trust anyone, or any relationship, that reminds you of your parents? In that case this would be your parents' weak point!!! Parents should be the first experience of trust for a child. Without it trust becomes difficult.

If you trust life, you have a great teacher! Trust that the whole universe arranges itself for you in such a way as to take you home. And it does so for everyone else also. After enlightenment you know this. Before enlightenment you have a choice whether to believe it or not.

One of the greatest joys of being with an enlightened master is to sit with him or her in silence. Just sitting, doing nothing. This same stillness, peace and within it, endless power and potential, this you can find in nature. If important people like your parents, have disappointed you, your teachers and masters will not be a personalized God, or Master, but life itself, the people here and there in it, and the deep silence in nature, or in your teacup.

Asiaprod wrote:

The function of a master or teacher is to teach the disciple or student. The master teaches on the understanding that disciple will eventually know more than the teacher and will in turn switch places and become in fact the master to the master who now becomes the disciple. The master only progresses when the disciple surpasses him. Very complex to understand I know. Its is if you like a symbiosis, what one gains so too does the other. We call this Kenzoku, or a sharing of spirit

This is very well said, Asiaprod.

The teacher-student relationship, very much like the parent-child relationship. One certainly has not been a good teacher or parent if students or children don't far surpass one, and the relatioinship isn't reversed. It is such an endless flowing back and forth.

Maitri wrote:

Or am I misunderstanding how it works? I just wonder: Isn't it very easy to become very dependent of that person who is your teacher instead of growing up?

Maitri wrote:

I don't ask because I believe that to have happened to you, or to any of you, I ask because it is what I fear would very easily happen to me if I entered such a relationship. Can you really - as a grown up person - trust your life into the hands of another human being? Doesn't life teach us (well...hmm...me… at least) again and again that it never works out?

Or is that not what the master-disciple relationship is about?

Asiaprod wrote:

All the things you have said are very valid, but they do not apply to a real master-disciple relationship, if they did it would not be this kind of relationship. Their is no negative dependence, it is a reunion.

This is true and beautifully said. In addition, if your teacher is actually enlightened, then this re-union results in your enlightenment. If he or she is not enlightened yet, it is like two bothers, maybe one a little older and more experienced than the other, helping each other trying to discover the inner treasure.

If a teacher is enlightened and has taken on students, he serves them. Patiently, day in day out, endlessly, always available, never loosing interest in them, even as they wander off to other pursuits, always trying to find a way to nudge them, push them, seduce them, entice them, bring them back, welcome them, even scare them, if neccessary, into the depth of his silence and peace. He needs them more than they need him, even though to them it looks the other way around. His life has been fulfilled. The truth has been revealed. The students are the reason he remains on this shore.

When there is enlightenment there is a great attraction because of your own longing for truth. In my experience with Osho it was an instant recognition and falling in love so powerful there was nothing I could do about it. It had all the love I had ever known, for my parents, my grandparents and who I imagined God and Jesus to be as a child, my husband, my children, all in one and then some. It was quite overpowering. And it all worked nicely long distance. I met many sannyasins later in life and as wonderful as the stories around Osho are, I am glad I was spared the Ashram life. In my own life at the time, everything was life and death, my husband, my children, a friend's suicide, huge struggles until finally I was presented with such a life Koan, everything came to a head and the only way out - was in. Way in. And there I was - no more:D

maitri · 21-06-2006 4:00pm

Hi!

Thanks for interesting thoughts, MeditationMom. It'll take some time to digest it all.

This is not very relevant, but just for the reckord I am sorry if I have given the impression that my parents are horrible people. They are not. Especially my mother has probably been a better parent than the average.
But in this world as it is, I think a lot of people (maybe most people) have "parent issues", anyway, because, you know, we are all confused. We all make mistakes. And we get hurt because other people make mistakes. I don't know if it's anybodys fault.

You had some beautiful words about the deep silence in nature and in ourselves.
Thank you!

You wrote:
If you trust life, you have a great teacher! Trust that the whole universe arranges itself for you in such a way as to take you home. And it does so for everyone else also.

In a way i feel you are very right in this.
But still... in a world where people are dying of hunger and in tremenduos suffering...
isn't there really urgent to do something to change this, not just to accept it?
Isn't that a responsibility not to be taken to lightly?

Or is this a wrong way of thinking?

What is the best way to do something?

Maitri

Acer · 22-06-2006 10:04am

Thanks for the reply, Meditation Mom,

I need a little time to think about your great answer. Will get back to you after tea break!

Acer

Liquidchild · 25-06-2006 10:26pm

Its the year 2006 and almost 1/3 of the world liv in poverty, its an absolute disgrace dat in this day and age we still brush it under the carpet and turn a blind eye to everything

maitri · 26-06-2006 1:32pm

Liquidchild wrote:

Its the year 2006 and almost 1/3 of the world liv in poverty, its an absolute disgrace dat in this day and age we still brush it under the carpet and turn a blind eye to everything

Agree!
But what do you think we shall do? How shall we live our lives to help to change this?

Do you have any suggestions?

Asiaprod · 26-06-2006 4:07pm

maitri wrote:

Do you have any suggestions?

Good answer maitri:)

MeditationMom · 28-06-2006 3:47am

Hi Everyone,
A rare chance to visit today - it will get easier to get computer time here after July 1.

Maitri wrote:

isn't there really urgent to do something to change this, not just to accept it?
Isn't that a responsibility not to be taken to lightly?

Or is this a wrong way of thinking?

What is the best way to do something?

Stricktly speaking, from an enlightenment point of view and a buddhist point of view, it is the wrong way to think. Instead of "what to do?" the question needs to be "how to be?" Not "what do I do about the suffering of others", but "how do I respond". Have I truely solved the question of suffering to know how to be of help?

Here is a story Osho once told-
A father of 12 goes to the Rabbi and laments about his many children, so many mouths to feed, not enough food, the house is too small, his wife is exhausted and cranky, and on and on. He starts sobbing and asks: "Rabbi, what do I do?" And the Rabbi answers: "Haven't you done enough? - Stop!"

We tend to self-righteously judge the suffering that "others" - corporations, govenments, groups and individuals - have caused and demonstratively go out and "help". Often people, meaning quite well and going all out for the suffering, end up harboring huge amounts of hostility and judgement within themselves, which from a buddhist point of view, contributes to the hostilities in the world.

Often, not really understanding situations we "help" and unintentionally cause more harm.

So what is the best way? In many ways this question is a Koan. "Helping" is a two-edged sword!

With meditation, much time in silence, and witnessing our still ongoing hostility and anger inside, we may find ourselves responding with "right action" to situations of suffering. What you are supposed to respond to, will show up in front of you. Your old neighbour's needs, a stray animal, a dying relatives child you may need to adopt, a corporation you may have to save from crooks, a country you may have to make very difficult decisions for, and so on and so on, all depending on your role in this vast ocean of beings. Your inner eye will know when to help and when not to interfere. It takes great humility, both to help, or not to help.

Also it should feel like a joy, even a passion, a calling - to help. If it is sacrifice, martyrdom, sefl-righteousness it will not last long or may even be misplaced or useless. If you love it with all your heart you will continue through the really hard times that are bound to come.

Liquidchild wrote:

Its the year 2006 and almost 1/3 of the world liv in poverty, its an absolute disgrace dat in this day and age we still brush it under the carpet and turn a blind eye to everything

"Liquidchild" - what a beautiful name. Yet you seem quite "unliquid" in your view of things. So many people in the world are making a difference. What do you think of Bill Gates' efforts? There are so many like him, at least here in the US, many you would never hear about. Helping smarter than governments and being effective, innovative, etc. 1/3 of the world in poverty? That means 2/3 aren't.

What percentage of this 1/3 would you say is responsible for its own poverty? Or should we always assume that all poverty is caused by others rather than maybe the culture or thinking of some of the ones living in poverty. Are all poor people innocent and all wealthy people evil?

From what I can see it is not a question of brushing things under the carpet or turning a blind eye, but the huge conundrum of how do you help people, many of whom are close to impossible to help. It is not that easy to help that 1/3 you speak of.

Asiaprod · 28-06-2006 5:17am

MeditationMom wrote:

Hi Everyone,
A rare chance to visit today - it will get easier to get computer time here after July 1.

Nice to see you back, very nice post. Thanks.

maitri · 29-06-2006 6:23pm

Hi Everybody! (And thank you Asia!:) )

Thank you for your answer, MeditationMom!:)
I see your very good points in what you are saying to me.

Still I kind of see the very important question "How do I respond" and the question "What to do" as parts of the same thing.

It might be difficult to help wisely when one is not enlightened. I agree with that. But still I feel that ethical behaviour is very important also when one has not yet "seen the light".

For Buddhist practice isn't restricted "only" to "sitting", is it? It is, I feel, also about acting and about our relationships with other people at home and in our world.

And that helping others is good for us, too, since we are all interdependent. Buddhism teaches, as I understand it, that helping others creates good karma.

And then "How to respond" also in a way involves the question "what to do" to help others, so that everybody can be happy.

I am not enlightened, but still I have some small suggestions about what to do to help people that live in poverty (I don't believe they are better or worse that us, I believe they are exactly as we are or would be in the same situation).

One can for instance support organisations like:

Save the Children

SOS Childrens Villages

and

Amnesty International

(in Norway it's extremely easy (and cheap) to sign a petition to help to save someone, we can do it through a mobile phone)

One can buy fairtrade-products when possible (by the way, 7-eleven has some very nice fairtrade-coffee):

Fairtrade.ie

Oxfamireland

One can chose ecological dairy products and eggs (because they are not cruel to the animals and the environment)

And what about ethical Investment?
It is not so nice to have money in a bank that supports weapon-industry and unfair and polluting trading, is it? Better with:

Ethical Investment?

This is not enough to save the world, but they are some few suggestions of things that can be done quite easily for oneself and for the world, without running a great risk of becoming neither a martyr nor to self-righteous, I believe.

It is not only that people need to be helped, but we really need to help, too.

Regards,

Maitri.

Doc Farrell · 29-06-2006 7:02pm

MeditationMom wrote:

Hi Everyone,
A rare chance to visit today - it will get easier to get computer time here after July 1.

.

I read this 3 times, a great, intelligent, human, humane answer. When one is in one's twenties or a student it feels invigorating and strenghtening to be indignant. But burnout is inevitable. Only a constant vigilence on why you really act, what your motivations really are can save you.

tx MM!

MeditationMom · 30-06-2006 4:36am

tx MM!
You're welcome!!!

Maitri, you bring up good points and your list is a great start for anyone, enlightened or not.

I think I did not do a good job explaining my point and will try again. I didn't mean to say that there is anythig wrong or unenlightened about helping others. Nothing could be further from the truth. As far as enlightenment goes, not helping others, makes absolutely no more sense at all.

Maitri wrote:

It might be difficult to help wisely when one is not enlightened. I agree with that. But still I feel that ethical behaviour is very important also when one has not yet "seen the light".

For Buddhist practice isn't restricted "only" to "sitting", is it? It is, I feel, also about acting and about our relationships with other people at home and in our world.

And that helping others is good for us, too, since we are all interdependent. Buddhism teaches, as I understand it, that helping others creates good karma.

"Helping wisely" has more to do with intuition or how much information one can gather about the situation one is trying to help, than anything to do with enlightenment.

As far as good Karma goes, yes, if helping with a loving heart, even in a situation where "help" could be counterproductive, good Karma is created.

If help is given with self-righteousness or hostility towards anyone, or even with "desire or greed" for acumulation of good Karma, it creates bad Karma.

That does not mean that $100 from a kind person, and $100 from a self-righteous person woudn't equally feed a starving family for a month. My point was not "don't bother to help until you are enlightened" and I am sorry if it came across that way.

Maitri wrote:

This is not enough to save the world, but they are some few suggestions of things that can be done quite easily for oneself and for the world, without running a great risk of becoming neither a martyr nor to self-righteous, I believe.

Of course, and your list of organizations is a good one with one of my favorites on there, the SOS Childrens Villages. My husband and I are supporting a large area of villages in India with schooling, immunizations and housing that a friend of ours runs, where every penny goes directly to the children. Unfortunately we know what some of the "helping" organizations do in these areas that would make your hair stand up-( none of the ones you mention, as far as I know) Some of them ( the one I know of is Spain's Intervida ) are as corrupt and brutal as any other large organization with lots of money and power, and supporting them can cause much harm.

Still it is subject to interpretation, as in, are you supporting pedophiles if you support the katholic church? You would get very different oppinions on that one.

Maitri wrote:

It is not only that people need to be helped, but we really need to help, too.

So, so true. It is a mutual need, a mutual joy. Our need to help is greater than any other need may be. Therefore humility, and gratitude for the opportunity and "no taking credit for one's deeds", with the understanding that by helping, there also exists a possibility of doing unintentional harm. Therefore in helping one accepts a level of selfishness in oneself.

Maitri wrote:

One can chose ecological dairy products and eggs (because they are not cruel to the animals and the environment)

And what about ethical Investment?
It is not so nice to have money in a bank that supports weapon-industry and unfair and polluting trading, is it?

These choices are very good ones, and all our small steps add up to more goodness in the world. And for one's good Karma

, it is important to not look down on others who chose otherwise, out of either different convictions or ignorance, humbly understanding that oneself is still quite ignorant. And the enlightened one is the most ignorant!

maitri · 30-06-2006 2:09pm

Thank you for your kind answer, MeditationMom!

I wish you and everyone of us on this forum a very happy summer!

M.

Just a few thoughts....

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