Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

corktina · 31-08-2013 12:39pm

No doubt but to subsidise it would have the effect of bankrupting the Railway. It should be easy enough for a cycling club to arrange a hire-van to transport it's bikes and a coach to carry it's people. I'd imagine it would be cheaper and more flexible too, in that it would take them right to the doorstep of their base or accommodation.

Suggesting modifying the railway to accommodate such things smacks to me of promoting rail for it's own sake (or the sake of it's fans) rather than seeing the bigger picture where there may be better options.

steamengine · 31-08-2013 12:59pm

corktina wrote: »

No doubt but to subsidise it would have the effect of bankrupting the Railway. It should be easy enough for a cycling club to arrange a hire-van to transport it's bikes and a coach to carry it's people. I'd imagine it would be cheaper and more flexible too, in that it would take them right to the doorstep of their base or accommodation.

Suggesting modifying the railway to accommodate such things smacks to me of promoting rail for it's own sake (or the sake of it's fans) rather than seeing the bigger picture where there may be better options.

The railway is already subsidised and as part of the national infrastructure, it's function is to grease the wheels of the economy by facilitating business, in this case tourism. The gains come at the other end, hotel accommodation, food, drink etc.. +++ jobs! The provision of extra bicycle carrying capacity is hardly modifying the railway to any meaningful extent. As regards fans, I'll put my hands up on that one, but then again rail in this country has so many enemies, it can do with all the support it can get. !

corktina · 31-08-2013 1:11pm

but when you can hire road vehicles as and when you want them with no modification, what's the point? If you make Rail even more uncompetitive and unprofitable , you will actually be damaging the thing you support. To modify a fleet of trains to carry 20 bicycles is hardly minor, and you would then not be able to use those trains on commuter or intercity routes where seats are in short supply.

Let Rail do what it excels in (Commuter and InterCity) and leave the roads look after what they do best.

steamengine · 31-08-2013 1:48pm

corktina wrote: »

but when you can hire road vehicles as and when you want them with no modification, what's the point? If you make Rail even more uncompetitive and unprofitable , you will actually be damaging the thing you support. To modify a fleet of trains to carry 20 bicycles is hardly minor, and you would then not be able to use those trains on commuter or intercity routes where seats are in short supply.

Let Rail do what it excels in (Commuter and InterCity) and leave the roads look after what they do best.

I doubt if cyclists who own expensive bikes would relish the thought of them banging around in the back of a van en route to their destination.

Far from making rail uncompetitive it is increasing the passenger numbers plus a premium for the bikes. The removal of seats and provision of bicycle racks and reversing that process as required should be a pretty straight forward operation - the only mod required would be is setting up the flexibility.

galwaycyclist · 31-08-2013 1:56pm

corktina wrote: »

To modify a fleet of trains to carry 20 bicycles is hardly minor, and you would then not be able to use those trains on commuter or intercity routes where seats are in short supply.

Uh sorry but this is not correct. In Germany etc there would be commuter trains with extensive provision for bikes in spaces that also have folding seats.

Sometimes the space is used for sitting and sometimes it is used for bikes. And sometimes, due to the flexible nature of the arrangement, for both.

hmmm · 31-08-2013 2:32pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

I never suggested that hordes of visitors would want to visit Claremorris but in case you hadn't noticed it's a junction on the Westport/Dublin line. Westport does very well out of its rail service and is the starting point for one of your beloved Greenways. I suggest that it more likely to get increased numbers of cyclists etc. from UK/Europe if a decent rail service is provided, connecting to Rosslare, or do you think that visitors will cycle there from Rosslare?

Firstly, I couldn't care less about the Greenway, I'm not a cyclist.

Secondly, this isn't the 1970s. People fly to Ireland, the numbers of foot passengers on ferries is miniscule. The Rosslare to Waterford line averaged around 25 to 30 passengers.

Thirdly, I doubt there are very many European cyclists interested in bringing their bikes to Claremorris and cycling down narrow roads playing dodgems with road traffic.

Judgement Day · 31-08-2013 2:32pm

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Uh sorry but this is not correct. In Germany etc there would be commuter trains with extensive provision for bikes in spaces that also have folding seats.

Sometimes the space is used for sitting and sometimes it is used for bikes. And sometimes, due to the flexible nature of the arrangement, for both.

Precisely, I imagine the Germans have a can-do attitude instead of the useless Irish hand wringing approach. Imagine Ireland launching the Blitzkrieg in 1939...it would never have got off the drawing board and all the money that should have been spent on tanks and troops would have been spent on consultants..:D

Judgement Day · 31-08-2013 2:34pm

hmmm wrote: »

Firstly, I couldn't care less about the Greenway, I'm not a cyclist.

Secondly, this isn't the 1970s. People fly to Ireland, the numbers of foot passengers on ferries is miniscule. The Rosslare to Waterford line averaged around 25 to 30 passengers.

Thirdly, I doubt there are very many European cyclists interested in bringing their bikes to Claremorris and cycling down narrow roads playing dodgems with road traffic.

You're still talking rubbish about Claremorris - it's a junction - trains pass through and on to the like of Westport - what part of the junction concept are you having problems with?

corktina · 31-08-2013 3:23pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

Precisely, I imagine the Germans have a can-do attitude instead of the useless Irish hand wringing approach. Imagine Ireland launching the Blitzkrieg in 1939...it would never have got off the drawing board and all the money that should have been spent on tanks and troops would have been spent on consultants..:D

sorry but it's a blinkered attitude to say lets convert our trains to carry 20 cyclists who may or may not show up when a better alternative might be available.
What European cyclist in their right mind would want to sit in a stopping train across Ireland, calling at every gob****e village and travelling at about 40mph, reversing whenever it felt like it and waiting connections at junctions (assuming a through service could be got), no buffet car, etcetc when a better alternative would be a van and coach as already said (or perhaps a purpose built dual purpose vehicle) which would bring them where they wanted to go cheaper and quicker?

(and at the end of the day , the car is a better alternative in this instance and this is what currently happens)

westtip · 31-08-2013 5:22pm

steamengine wrote: »

The only reasonable way of transporting bicycles from Dublin or Rosslare ferry ports to various points West would be by rail. .

When we have the national cycle network they can cycle to the west, but I do take the point that IE does need to do more to accomodate cyclists and their bikes - indeed with the success of the GWG - all the trains to Westport should have cycle racks, and when we get the Claremorris-collooney greenway in place (which we will) all trains to Sligo should allow cyclists to use the train to collooney so they can cycle to Achill and Westport on greenway to get the train back to dublin. The Western Rail corridor is a dead duck - we all know that, but Irish rail should have an integrated marketing campaign with Failte ireland to encourage people out to westport to use the GWG and when a greenway starts in collooney - that will link with the GWG to offer packages to train to collooney and train back (with your bike) from Westport - as for opening new railways like the Western rail corridor - don't ye think that one has by now been flogged to death, it ain't going to happen - ever.

eastwest · 31-08-2013 5:52pm

westtip wrote: »

as for opening new railways like the Western rail corridor - don't ye think that one has by now been flogged to death, it ain't going to happen - ever.

I think that pretty much everybody, including out-and-out rail fanatics, will concede you that. We're still borrowing around twelve billion a year just to pay everyday running expenses, and services like health and education are creaking under the strain of cutbacks. We simply don't have the money to throw at any more of the WRC, and we won't have those kinds of surplus funds again for decades to come, if ever.
This issue would be sorted once and for all if the county councillors just acknowledged this reality and stopped blathering on about this mythical railway. The problem though, is that they're afraid to do that in case one or two of them don't take this pragmatic stance -- in effect, they all need to 'jump together'. If for instance all the FG and FF councillors on Mayo County Council were to start supporting the greenway solution, the Shinners would jump on it like a shot (if they'll pardon that metaphor) and publicly berate them for being against the railway. In the current climate, and given that the public have been fed a one-sided story about this railway for the last couple of decades, this kind of sh**e might fall on fairly fertile ground with a disgruntled electorate. There are still a lot of voters who think of money for capital projects as just 'coming from Dublin' and who don't understand (or don't care) that any such money has to be raised from already overburdened taxpayers.
So, while sensible people might be anxious for the councillors to move this along and create a bit of economic stimulus in the north-west, there's a lot of 'smoke-filled-rooms' stuff still to be done to make it happen. Rural Ireland has been conditioned over the years by politicians into a kind of dependency culture that expects something for nothing, or at least the promise of it.

corktina · 31-08-2013 5:57pm

is it the case then that these cyclists are going to transport themselves all the way through the Chunnel,across the UK, board a ferry, and then take a train across Ireland? That would be the case if you imagine them using trains to Westport and Sligo I should think.

I think it would be far more likely they would be coming into Ringaskiddy or Rosslare on the continental ferries. That would entail using the WRC in both cases if they were to use rail and this is so unlikely that I would think cyclists using trains in Ireland is a total non-starter. Half their holiday would be gone before they ever sit in the saddle.

eastwest · 31-08-2013 6:49pm

corktina wrote: »

is it the case then that these cyclists are going to transport themselves all the way through the Chunnel,across the UK, board a ferry, and then take a train across Ireland? That would be the case if you imagine them using trains to Westport and Sligo I should think.

I think it would be far more likely they would be coming into Ringaskiddy or Rosslare on the continental ferries. That would entail using the WRC in both cases if they were to use rail and this is so unlikely that I would think cyclists using trains in Ireland is a total non-starter. Half their holiday would be gone before they ever sit in the saddle.

I'd imagine that he majority of the business will be rental anyway. Rental companies will run package holidays via IWAK, and cyclists wanting to use their own bikes can just fly them in as baggage.

Banjoxed · 31-08-2013 8:51pm

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Uh sorry but this is not correct. In Germany etc there would be commuter trains with extensive provision for bikes in spaces that also have folding seats.

Sometimes the space is used for sitting and sometimes it is used for bikes. And sometimes, due to the flexible nature of the arrangement, for both.

Seeing as Corktina would scrap Mallow - Tralee in favour of buses, I reckon we can take it as read that Corktina would get the Heebie-Jeebies about any spending that would widen the attractiveness of rail as an option for anything.

Linky: http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2056655971/19/#post85271910

Judgement Day · 31-08-2013 9:28pm

corktina wrote: »

is it the case then that these cyclists are going to transport themselves all the way through the Chunnel,across the UK, board a ferry, and then take a train across Ireland? That would be the case if you imagine them using trains to Westport and Sligo I should think.

I think it would be far more likely they would be coming into Ringaskiddy or Rosslare on the continental ferries. That would entail using the WRC in both cases if they were to use rail and this is so unlikely that I would think cyclists using trains in Ireland is a total non-starter. Half their holiday would be gone before they ever sit in the saddle.

I think you're all over the place on this one, as from my own experience I've seen plenty of people wishing to bring their bikes by train in Ireland - even seen them turned away in places despite having tickets for the bikes due to capacity on the trains. The simple fact is that are trains are NOT fit for purpose anymore - they were designed by people who probably don't use them - a bit like many enthusiasts who travel by car to photograph trains but don't use them and then come on here telling us how they should be run.

corktina · 31-08-2013 9:31pm

Banjoxed wrote: »

Seeing as Corktina would scrap Mallow - Tralee in favour of buses, I reckon we can take it as read that Corktina would get the Heebie-Jeebies about any spending that would widen the attractiveness of rail as an option for anything.

please don't attribute opinions to me, I'm quite able to express my own

corktina · 31-08-2013 9:33pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

I think you're all over the place on this one, as from my own experience I've seen plenty of people wishing to bring their bikes by train in Ireland - even seen them turned away in places despite having tickets for the bikes due to capacity on the trains. The simple fact is that are trains are NOT fit for purpose anymore - they were designed by people who probably don't use them - a bit like many enthusiasts who travel by car to photograph trains but don't use them and then come on here telling us how they should be run.

not at all, I am specifically commenting on the 20 cyclists in a club heading for the greenways of the west scenario. Individual cyclists wishing to travel with their bikes on a train over the rest of the network is a different issue. There still would be little justification for 20 bike spaces on a train.

galwaycyclist · 31-08-2013 10:40pm

corktina wrote: »

not at all, I am specifically commenting on the 20 cyclists in a club heading for the greenways of the west scenario. Individual cyclists wishing to travel with their bikes on a train over the rest of the network is a different issue. There still would be little justification for 20 bike spaces on a train.

Again, and I genuinely mean no disrespect, but this is manifestly not correct. There are various examples of rolling stock that are adaptble to various uses depending on the nature of the service being offered. It is entirely possible to have rolling stock that carries 20 bikes off-peak or seated, or standing, passengers in the same space at peak travel times.

It simply requires flexibility of attitude and approach. Atttempts to argue that one precludes the other are, in my view, spurious.

corktina · 01-09-2013 8:11am

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Again, and I genuinely mean no disrespect, but this is manifestly not correct. There are various examples of rolling stock that are adaptble to various uses depending on the nature of the service being offered. It is entirely possible to have rolling stock that carries 20 bikes off-peak or seated, or standing, passengers in the same space at peak travel times.

It simply requires flexibility of attitude and approach. Atttempts to argue that one precludes the other are, in my view, spurious.

of course it is entirely possible, anything is possible. But is it econmic to convert an entire fleet for the use of a possible continental club of 20 cyclists was my point, or wold it in fact be more economic AND CHEAPER AND MORE FLEXIBLE for them to consider an alternative.

If you have a three car train, with 20 bikes and paying customers standing, just how long will the Railway keep those passengers do you think?

What's more, what does a cyclist do who boards atrain and finds the convertible seats occupied by passengers? I can just imagine the resonse to " could you stand up so I can park my bike"

Banjoxed · 01-09-2013 8:40am

corktina wrote: »

of course it is entirely possible, anything is possible. But is it econmic to convert an entire fleet for the use of a possible continental club of 20 cyclists was my point, or wold it in fact be more economic AND CHEAPER AND MORE FLEXIBLE for them to consider an alternative.

If you have a three car train, with 20 bikes and paying customers standing, just how long will the Railway keep those passengers do you think?

What's more, what does a cyclist do who boards atrain and finds the convertible seats occupied by passengers? I can just imagine the resonse to " could you stand up so I can park my bike"

SHOUTING never fails to clinch an argument for me! They never needed dedicated infrastructure on trains for bikes in Great Britain and mostly in Northern Ireland (bikes carried FOC in both) but it looks like "we" need something that can be objected to, to prevent the choice deemed normal elsewhere.

westtip · 01-09-2013 9:54am

corktina wrote: »

not at all, I am specifically commenting on the 20 cyclists in a club heading for the greenways of the west scenario. Individual cyclists wishing to travel with their bikes on a train over the rest of the network is a different issue. There still would be little justification for 20 bike spaces on a train.

Indeed Corkie but don't you remember the good old days of guards vans. Lock your bike to the cage and get it off and cycle away at your destintion, these seamless units we have as trains now have gotten rid of the guards van, and in many cases gotten rid of the guard. Bring back guards vans is my call.

bk · 01-09-2013 10:06am

Folks cycling clubs when they go abroad like this normally rent at their destination.

For instance Gran Canaria is a very popular destination for them (winter training in the mountains). There are a few companies on the island, that you can rent absolutely top of the range €3000 racing bikes from.

I do believe trains should have better provision for bikes *, but 20 bikes from a racing club heading to the west is never going to happen.

* top change would be to allow bikes on Luas off peak like the DART.

westtip · 01-09-2013 10:23am

bk wrote: »

Folks cycling clubs when they go abroad like this normally rent at their destination.

.

Same really goes now for golfers - unless they pay the hefty charges applied to golf club air transit costs these days. I think with bikes on trains we are really talking about the domestic market, but most families who want to take a day trip cycling these days have got a bike rack on the back of the car or roof carrier and will take bikes to their destimation - one of the problems of the GWG is trailhead parking space/access parking space at points along the greeneway - the abondonned Claremorris- Collooney line an ideal trail head would be the Yeats County Inn on the N17 just north of Charlestown at Curry in county Sligo - this business is a perfect example of how a business will benefit from a greenway, and its contribution will be employing more people in the area and providing free trail head/trail access parking for the greenway - anyone who knows the route will be familiar with what I am saying.

Judgement Day · 01-09-2013 11:02am

CIE/IE don't want bicycles, or for that matter passengers, cluttering up their trains. The difference in attitude between Translink/NIR and CIE/IE is well illustrated by their respective websites:

http://www.translink.co.uk/Documents/footers/visitors/bikeitwithtranslink061207.pdf
Bikes carried FREE

http://www.irishrail.ie/index.jsp?p=120&n=153
Bikes €6 single and €12 return

The CIE dinosaur and a great many of its managers needs to be terminated.

bk · 01-09-2013 11:10am

Judgement Day wrote: »

Bikes €6 single and €12 return

If always said it shows how crazy it is that it costs almost the same to take a bike from Cork to Dublin on the train (€6) as it does a person on the bus (€9) and you can take a bike on the bus for free!

westtip · 01-09-2013 11:51am

Judgement Day wrote: »

CIE/IE don't want bicycles, or for that matter passengers, cluttering up their trains. The difference in attitude between Translink/NIR and CIE/IE is well illustrated by their respective websites:

http://www.translink.co.uk/Documents/footers/visitors/bikeitwithtranslink061207.pdf
Bikes carried FREE

http://www.irishrail.ie/index.jsp?p=120&n=153
Bikes €6 single and €12 return

The CIE dinosaur and a great many of its managers needs to be terminated.

Yes indeed quite astonishing difference in attitude perhaps the DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORT TOURISM AND SPORT should look at this...:D Highly unlikely.

Judgement Day · 01-09-2013 11:58am

This is the same transport/railway company that sees fit to charge passengers extra to bring them in from their Victorian railway terminus in the Western suburbs to Dublin city centre - NIR/Translink have offered a FREE transfer from 'Central' Station to Belfast City Centre for decades and before the cross-city link a free service to York Road Station. CIE operate in some parallel universe.

corktina · 01-09-2013 3:19pm

westtip wrote: »

Indeed Corkie but don't you remember the good old days of guards vans. Lock your bike to the cage and get it off and cycle away at your destintion, these seamless units we have as trains now have gotten rid of the guards van, and in many cases gotten rid of the guard. Bring back guards vans is my call.

maybe we should never have got rid of them, but to bring them back will cost....who pays? If the answer is NOBODY, then what if the cost is the last straw that sinks the mixed metaphor? Oops I shouted again, lets hope no back seat mod notices!

sydneybound · 01-09-2013 8:53pm

westtip wrote: »

The abondonned Claremorris- Collooney line an ideal trail head would be the Yeats County Inn on the N17 just north of Charlestown at Curry in county Sligo - this business is a perfect example of how a business will benefit from a greenway, and its contribution will be employing more people in the area and providing free trail head/trail access parking for the greenway - anyone who knows the route will be familiar with what I am saying.

Very good example, was thinking too that a business like this would benefit so much with this type of project. From people staying over night, food and a few drinks, the additional expenditure would be most welcome. Howleys across the road would even benefit from tourists wanting to have a drink in a 'real' irish pub. These entry level jobs - bar work, waiting on tables, cleaning rooms etc are vital for the local economy to stop the drain of young people leaving the area immediately after school if they don't choose college or even just summer work in between college years which this part of the west badly needs.

I dearly hope the relevant bodies see sense and action this project, no it won't end the recession but any help the area can get, would be of huge benefit.

Banjoxed · 01-09-2013 8:55pm

corktina wrote: »

maybe we should never have got rid of them, but to bring them back will cost....who pays? If the answer is NOBODY, then what if the cost is the last straw that sinks the mixed metaphor? Oops I shouted again, lets hope no back seat mod notices!

Thanks for the reference, I'd give you a thumbs up for that but its sore from texting all day.

If I extend my middle finger as a friendly gesture will that do instead?

Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

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