Romans in Wicklow

CDfm · 28-08-2011 2:49pm

slowburner wrote: »

The site hasn't been dug. That's probably why there is so much debate about it.
Thanks for the link - the Articles link on that site is brilliant.

you are welcome SB

i came accross it looking for viking stuff have fun and be sure to let us know any interesting stuff you come accross.

CDfm · 28-08-2011 4:29pm

slowburner wrote: »

The site hasn't been dug. That's probably why there is so much debate about it.
Thanks for the link - the Articles link on that site is brilliant.

Lots of undug sites but you did not need Romans there for a Roman influence or even a roman incursion.

http://homepage.eircom.net/~archaeology/road.htm

http://homepage.eircom.net/~archaeology/saxons.htm

EDIT

and more links here

http://tbreen.home.xs4all.nl/links.html

Corsendonk · 28-08-2011 6:51pm

slowburner wrote: »

I think Barry Raftery concluded that there was a Roman settlement in Drumanagh but concluded that it was not military on the basis that no weapons were found.
The site came to light when Roman artifacts were uncovered by illegal metal detecting. No excavation has been carried out because of other legal issues.
See here

The site has been extremely poorly protected for years. The green field shots are Drumanagh, Martello Tower clearly visible in the background.

On a side note the lands around Drumanagh are extremely good farming land which would have attracted some settlement even without trading.

John D'Alton "The history of the county of Dublin" (1838)

There is a portion of Rush, however, called Drum-
managh, deemed particularly rich by Rutty, the rich-
est in the whole county, and which accordingly is let at
four guineas per acre.

slowburner · 28-08-2011 7:20pm

Corsendonk wrote: »

The site has been extremely poorly protected for years. The green field shots are Drumanagh, Martello Tower clearly visible in the background.

On a side note the lands around Drumanagh are extremely good farming land which would have attracted some settlement even without trading.

John D'Alton "The history of the county of Dublin" (1838)

That's shocking.

CDfm · 28-08-2011 10:09pm

Here is a link to a site with an excavation database

http://www.excavations.ie/Pages/HomePage.php

MarchDub · 29-08-2011 11:38am

slowburner wrote: »

I have been unable to find any evidence that Barry Raftery concluded this.
Michael Herity, however appears to have concluded that the site was an Irish trading post.

I found something : Raftery was interviewed for the RTE TV series 'In Search of Ancient Ireland' which aired around 2002/3 - I have a copy of it. He is standing on the Drumanagh site for the interview. I have copied out some of what he said regarding it being an Irish only settlement - not Roman style - with trading going on with the Roman world:

"Aerial photography suggests Irish style homes and that this was a place where native Irish were living trading with the Roman world. They [the Irish] were living here trading with the Romans and all sorts of other people from the Roman Empire".

slowburner · 29-08-2011 11:53am

MarchDub wrote: »

I found something : Raftery was interviewed for the RTE TV series 'In Search of Ancient Ireland' which aired around 2002/3 - I have a copy of it. He is standing on the Drumanagh site for the interview. I have copied out some of what he said regarding it being an Irish only settlement - not Roman style - with trading going on with the Roman world:

Appreciate that Marchdub. But isn't it curious that he could come to such a conclusion based on aerial photos?

paddyandy · 29-08-2011 12:00pm

The Romans had more sense than England they would'nt come near us we were regarded as the Sleepy people always hibernating hence the HIBERNIANS.

CDfm · 29-08-2011 12:12pm

slowburner wrote: »

Appreciate that Marchdub. But isn't it curious that he could come to such a conclusion based on aerial photos?

If you look at it in the way that the archaelogy is going nowhere and it is a very significant site his objective would be to secure funding and permission to lead the dig.

So his ambition will be to lead the dig no matter what is under there so naturally he will talk it up.

I do not mean to be negative but it is the politics of research funding and it could be his life goal and it could be a way of raising awareness and getting it up the list.

testicle · 29-08-2011 12:18pm

patwicklow wrote: »

The first is a townland near Avoca by the name of Tigroney, this is translated locally as "The House of the Romans"

Im from this area and iv never heard anything in history about this, But i will do some research and get back,

Could it be House of the Rowan? Rowan is derived from Raun, the Norse for Tree.

P. Breathnach · 29-08-2011 1:05pm

testicle wrote: »

Could it be House of the Rowan? Rowan is derived from Raun, the Norse for Tree.

If you look it up in http://www.logainm.ie/ you get "Ainm Gaeilge le deimhniú" ["Irish name to be ascertained"].

How long is it since Irish was commonly spoken in the area? I tend to be cautious, even mistrustful, of supposed interpretations of placenames in areas that have been dominantly English-speaking for a long time.

Wibbs · 29-08-2011 6:42pm

paddyandy wrote: »

The Romans had more sense than England they would'nt come near us we were regarded as the Sleepy people always hibernating hence the HIBERNIANS.

Nope it means the land of winter

paddyandy · 29-08-2011 8:23pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Nope it means the land of winter

I'VE held that idea from my schooldays and the teachers words. I must search that one out.Thanks.

fontanalis · 29-08-2011 8:30pm

paddyandy wrote: »

I'VE held that idea from my schooldays and the teachers words. I must search that one out.Thanks.

:eek:

Anyway, Ptolemy created some fairly accurate maps of Ireland didn't he?
I wonder what he based them on.

MarchDub · 29-08-2011 10:20pm

fontanalis wrote: »

:eek:

Anyway, Ptolemy created some fairly accurate maps of Ireland didn't he?
I wonder what he based them on.

He based them mostly on reports from sailors and travellers.

slowburner · 30-08-2011 11:54am

testicle wrote: »

Could it be House of the Rowan? Rowan is derived from Raun, the Norse for Tree.

The Viking influence on nearby Arklow could certainly support that translation - and Rowan trees are still abundant.
The Irish for Rowan is Caorthann, so it's not from Irish, for sure.

P. Breathnach wrote: »

If you look it up in http://www.logainm.ie/ you get "Ainm Gaeilge le deimhniú" ["Irish name to be ascertained"].

How long is it since Irish was commonly spoken in the area? I tend to be cautious, even mistrustful, of supposed interpretations of placenames in areas that have been dominantly English-speaking for a long time.

["Irish name to be ascertained"]

Very interesting - this difficulty in ascribing an Irish translation.
I have been unable to find any Irish translation of the word Romhan - the Irish translations of Tigroney are Teach na Romhan and Tí Ronaí.
The only similar words I could find here http://glg.csisdmz.ul.ie/index.php
are Rómán - a Roman Rómán - to double dig, and Rónóin - a seal calf, there are afew other words with similar roots but they would not apply, I think.

My guess is that Irish was probably dying out in the area around 1820, maybe earlier, when mining became a serious business in the area and there was an influx of Cornish miners and British overseers.

This is from Rev.P.Dempsey's 1912 History of the Vale (Marchdub would call this a "tabloid" history

)
"...Tigroney, about which I find the following note in Dr.Joyce's History of Irish Place Names:
Tigroney,...is the ancient church or House of the Romans, where Palladius, St.Patrick's predecessor, erected a church during his short visit to this coast."

I haven't been able to find the original reference in Joyce's history but I have seen it.

slowburner · 30-08-2011 11:59am

CDfm wrote: »

If you look at it in the way that the archaelogy is going nowhere and it is a very significant site his objective would be to secure funding and permission to lead the dig.

So his ambition will be to lead the dig no matter what is under there so naturally he will talk it up.

I do not mean to be negative but it is the politics of research funding and it could be his life goal and it could be a way of raising awareness and getting it up the list.

I hear you Cd. This particular site is a strange one though - there is a legal dispute (or was) between state agencies and the owners of the property. The finds from the '70's have been under lock and key in the national museum and can't be seen for love nor money, by all accounts.

slowburner · 31-08-2011 12:29pm

fontanalis wrote: »

:eek:

Anyway, Ptolemy created some fairly accurate maps of Ireland didn't he?
I wonder what he based them on.

Excellent link here on Ptolomy with some reference to Drumanagh and another possible Roman site at Stoneyford in Kilkenny.

Mr. Presentable · 31-08-2011 7:14pm

slowburner wrote: »

Excellent link here on Ptolomy with some reference to Drumanagh and another possible Roman site at Stoneyford in Kilkenny.

Thanks for this slowburner. Very interesting

slowburner · 31-08-2011 7:43pm

Forgot to mention that you can download the entire paper as a PDF.

CDfm · 31-08-2011 10:11pm

slowburner wrote: »

I hear you Cd. This particular site is a strange one though - there is a legal dispute (or was) between state agencies and the owners of the property. The finds from the '70's have been under lock and key in the national museum and can't be seen for love nor money, by all accounts.

The finds turned up in Sotheby's and were seized.

Wednesday April 25 2007
MODERN day ‘Raiders of the Lost Ark’ could be getting away with a priceless fortune of Roman and Celtic artefacts from one of the greatest unexcavated historical sites in Europe.Two men were discovered on the 48 acre site at Drumanagh, between Loughshinny and Rush, with metal detectors recently, sparking a search by local gardai but the pair had escaped before beingBy Hubert MurphyMODERN day ‘Raiders of the Lost Ark’ could be getting away with a priceless fortune of Roman and Celtic artefacts from one of the greatest unexcavated historical sites in Europe.
Two men were discovered on the 48 acre site at Drumanagh, between Loughshinny and Rush, with metal detectors recently, sparking a search by local gardai but the pair had escaped before being apprehended.
The Drumanagh site is a massive fortification, defended by sheer cliffs on three sides and the remains of battlements and surrounding ditches on the remaining side.
It hit the headlines some years ago when a noted professor stated that he believed it was the location for a Roman invasion of Ireland.
Dr Richard Warner caused a real stir when he stated that he felt it had a very strong Roman link.
Since then, various experts have argued over the subject, without being totally sure.
If the ‘Roman invasion’ was ever proved then Irish and European history would have to be rewritten.
In the past, various items were recovered from the site and ultimately ended up in the hands of the National Museum. It was never disclosed what the items were, but it is believed that they are of a Roman origin. Aerial photographs indicate that the outline of buildings can still be seen.
But what makes the privately-owned Drumanagh so special and why would the average metal detector fan be so interested in unearthing its treasure?
The site has been for thousands of years and more than likely was a base for various groups in that time.
In 1927, just across the narrow waters on Lambay Island, a number of Roman burials were discovered. Some years ago the whole subject of Drumanagh made it into the courts after Roman items were recovered from the Loughshinny site.
The Roman influence in Fingal has to be fully proved but if any region in Ireland could have been settled – it was here!
Evidence of Roman finds have been given in Barry Raftery’s book ‘Pagen Celtic Ireland.’

http://www.fingal-independent.ie/news/raiders-attempt-to-steal-the-secrets-of-drumanagh-671355.html

Wibbs · 03-09-2011 8:36pm

OK lets imagine Romans were here, maybe a small garrison say. Then there are a couple of mysteries. Chief among them is pottery/ceramics. Ireland was unusual in one way we had very little of a ceramics based culture here at the time(IIRC a small amount in the north east?). Thy have found the odd ceramics but they're imported and in small number, no indigenous production. You would expect that if the Romans were here in any sort of numbers.

The second is building technique. The Irish vernacular has a very long continuity to it, from iron age and before and small evolutions of that. Round houses and round buildings, roughly dressed rock with corbeled stone roofs. Some with crude mortar like round towers, others dry stone walling. In some the expertise with the material is sublime. But stand in a later monks cell on the Skelligs and look up, then go to Newgrange and look up and the view is very similar yet separated by 4000 years. You see more of that lack of Roman/European influence with the monastic sites later on. It takes a long time before the simple Roman arch comes in. The early sites and round towers are lintelled. They're aware of arches, indeed carve arches into lintels, but of the technique itself strangely reluctant to change what they've always done. And this is when Ireland was collecting books on everything they could get their monkish hands on.

It does seem odd to me that if there were anything like a small garrison/trading town of Roman origins, they didn't take up pottery, building techniques, writing(at that stage) and other Roman fancies.

gbee · 03-09-2011 8:50pm

Wibbs wrote: »

It does seem odd to me that if there were anything like a small garrison/trading town of Roman origins, they didn't take up pottery, building techniques, writing(at that stage) and other Roman fancies.

Camps. I think we know from history that the Romans did not occupy in any significant numbers or style, however, the various circumstantial evidence suggests we were certainly probed ~ ergo some incommunicado would be expected by the small recce parties.

CDfm · 03-09-2011 8:57pm

Wibbs wrote: »

OK lets imagine Romans were here, maybe a small garrison say. Then there are a couple of mysteries. Chief among them is pottery/ceramics. Ireland was unusual in one way we had very little of a ceramics based culture here at the time(IIRC a small amount in the north east?). Thy have found the odd ceramics but they're imported and in small number, no indigenous production. You would expect that if the Romans were here in any sort of numbers.

It does seem odd to me that if there were anything like a small garrison/trading town of Roman origins, they didn't take up pottery, building techniques, writing(at that stage) and other Roman fancies.

What about the odd shipwreck. Thats a likely explanation isn't it ?

How would the Irish have treated that.?

Wibbs · 03-09-2011 9:20pm

Maybe. It is odd though. Then again what's odder is those technologies didn't flood in even when we had a goodly chunk of the literature of the known world at our fingertips. Maybe there was some odd cultural insularity at play? I mean the monks who traveled throughout Europe and back would have seen all sorts of technologies new to them. They were a major part of Charlemagnes renaissance. They reported them but didn't really bother incorporating them back home. In architecture it wasn't until the Normans and European religious orders(in big numbers) came on their heels that they did so. Theology, histories, languages, philosophy they went at with a ravenous thirst for more but more technological stuff not nearly so much. Their monastic sites are built like iron age raths in layout, no real grid pattern even when they finally go with this new fangled square building stuff.

So maybe the same insularity happened with contact with the imperial Roman world? Strange they didn't go gangbusters for writing like they did later on. Then again Ogham script may have it's origins in latin script IIRC. Again off the top of my head I seem to recall a later ogham stone where the ogham script is on one edge and a latin script is on the other edge and written on said edge like ogham. So maybe that's evidence of more widespread Romanic influence? Though again could be explained away by simple trade.

My main issue with Roman in Ireland is the Italian lads don't mention it. They talk about possible invasion, but actual stuff is thin on the ground(and of questionable sources) and you'd think they would have noted it, even if it was a small thing? If they had and it was lost, you'd think the later monks would have mentioned it as a connection to Christian Rome and AFAIR they didn't.

gbee · 03-09-2011 9:32pm

Wibbs wrote: »

, even if it was a small thing? If they had and it was lost, you'd think the later monks would have mentioned it as a connection to Christian Rome and AFAIR they didn't.

Christian Rome would not have existed for another 300 years, given the 50AD date stated already.

And all we know about Christ's 'execution' is one line and Jesus was a 'common' name.

OT, the crucifixion story was not born for another 1200 years, not exactly a point of reference, more food for thought.

slowburner · 03-09-2011 9:42pm

CDfm wrote: »

What about the odd shipwreck. Thats a likely explanation isn't it ?

How would the Irish have treated that.?

I think you've brought up a very significant issue here CD - boats.
Did the Romans have boats on the western seaboard of Britain which were capable of delivering any form of heavy military presence - I have a notion that there is no archaeological record of suitable craft being unearthed across the Irish Sea.
Wibbs, another thing to think about in relation to this 'insularity' is the documented tale of St.Patrick being repulsed at Arklow - were the natives on the eastern Irish seaboard just too formidable and intransigent?

CDfm · 03-09-2011 9:51pm

But technology and ideas don't transfer with one way migration and wasn't that much later.

And, a scholar went to for bookish reasons not building techniques and one beehive cell was as good as another and I can imagine why **** with the known technology. I also imagine there was not a huge demand for beehive cells.

[SIZE=+1] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] St. Columbanus is the best[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]known of the Irish missionaries. Born in Leinster and ordained in 572 he went with 12 companions to France in 590. Among his companions were St. Gall and St. Deicholus. In Burgundy they set up monasteries in Annegray, Luxeuil and Fontaines and later other monasteries at Faremoutiers in 627, Jouarre in 630 and Rebais in 636.[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] His most famous monastery is in Bobbio in Italy where the Saints body is interred under the marble altar in the Basilica of St. Columbanus. The beautiful town of San Columbano was named after him[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] St. Gall settled in Switzerland. He led the people away from idolatry and the town and canton of St. Gall was called after him.[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] St. Goban Martyr A.D. 670. He built a church dedicated to St. Peter near Le Fere and Premontre. He was beheaded by German Barbarians. Town now known as San Goban.[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] St. Gibrian (A.D.515). One of 7 brothers and 3 sisters who left Ireland to serve God more freely in a strange land. They settled at the junction of the Cook and the Marne.[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] St. Fiachra (A.D.670). An Irish monk who sailed to France where he wanted to give himself more fully to God. However at Breuil in the province of Brie he set up a hospice for travellers which later developed into the village of Saint-Fiacre in Seine-et-Marne. The fame of his miracles of healing continued after his death. He is Patron Saint of gardeners and cab drivers of Paris.[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] St. Fursey (A.D.648) was born near Lough Corrib. He experienced wonderful ecstacies. Between 640 and 644 he crossed to Gaul and built a monastery at Lagny and died shortly after in 648. His remains were transferred to Peronne[/FONT][/SIZE]

http://www.sip.ie/sip019I/europe.htm

The Celtic Church was monastic and even Charlemange took on Irish monks.

CDfm · 03-09-2011 10:00pm

slowburner wrote: »

I think you've brought up a very significant issue here CD - boats.
....................were the natives on the eastern Irish seaboard just too formidable and intransigent?

Occam's Law courtesy of the Atheist and Agnostics

Heh heh Dades

It would also explain the knowledge of the tribes etc from maps.

Another possibility is traveling druids, if monks travelled, why not druids and how would the Romans have treated them ?

Romans in Wicklow

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