"British man jailed for four months in Morocco ‘for being gay’"

Horselord wrote: »

Found pictures ?

That's strange.

The whole story feels like it's missing details to be honest. I'm not completely sold on the 'arrested just for being gay' part. Why was he arrested in the first place? He wasn't just swooped off the street randomly.

Peregrinus wrote: »

Um. Morocco - like some other places quite near to home - has a slightly inconsistent attitude to homosexuality. On the one hand, it's illegal, and there is little or no public call for, or support for, any change to this position. On the other hand, what people do privately is generally not something that anybody gets too worked up about, and excessively vigorous enforcement of the law is not popular.

What they don't like, however, is anything that smacks of sex tourism. For a long time, while the country was under French rule, Morocco had the reputation of being a place where wealthy European homosexuals could use their money and their status as whites to get away with things that would not be acceptable in their home countries, and indeed that would not have been acceptable if done by Moroccan men, and there was a lively sex trade involving poor young Moroccan men and wealthy older European men. The Moroccans see this as one of the more degrading and offensive aspects of their colonial exploitation, and they are very sensitive about anything that looks even remotely like that.

Obviously I know nothing about the circumstances of this case and, as others have pointed out, there is a good deal of pertinent information that is missing in the newspaper reports. The source of the story is the family of the man concerned but (a) they themselves may only have a partial picture of what happened (do you share full details of your sex life with your family?) and (b) they are only going to share with the newspapers details which they think are going to help their father. So what we are getting is a highly selective account.

My guess would be that, rightly or wrongly, the Moroccan authorities think that this guy has been engaged in sex tourism in Morocco with Moroccan sex workers. You may have views about the rightness or wrongness of being arrested for that, or about whether they have any good evidence for these suspicions, but "arrested just for being gay" may not quite cover what is going on here.

You see I'd go along with the logic of this. We don't know the full details etc. all good, we should be cautious about assumptions etc. great. Then because nothing decent isn't worth spoiling you lob in a grenade of spurious presumptions about sex tourism.... Disappointed Face.

Peregrinus wrote: »

Just to be clear: I haven’t made any presumptions. I do not know whether the police suspect this man was engaged in sex tourism. And, if they do suspect that, I do not know whether their suspicions are correct, or whether they are well-grounded.

The starting point here is that people are not normally arrested “just for being gay” in Morocco. In fact, “just being gay” is not an offence in Morocco. So, as everyone in this thread has agreed, this story is clearly incomplete, and is clearly being spun by the one source on which it seems to be based.

If we accept, however, that the man has indeed been arrested, and that his arrest is in some way linked to his sexual behaviour, then we can reasonably ask what kind of sexual behaviour gets you arrested in Morocco? And the standout answer is sex tourism involving young or underage Moroccan sex workers, which for understandable historical reasons is a hot-button issue in Morocco. In fact there has recently been major public outcry about wealthy foreigners who appear to have been able to bribe their way out of child-sex charges in Morocco, and the government has responded with a crackdown. Note that I am not presuming, or saying, that this man has been engaged in such activity, but it may well be that that is what he is accused of. (He is certainly accused of something more than “just being gay”.) The accusation could of course be completely groundless.

Hotmail reasonably asks “How many straight men avail of sex tourism?”. The answer is, in Morocco, quite a lot (if not exactly “millions”) but if their tourism involves underage prostitutes they too are at risk, in the current climate, of being arrested.

You have absolutely made spurious assumptions. You are blatantly ignorning the reported facts of the case, minimalising the criminal sanctions placed on homosexual behaviour, and then throwing in sex tourism for literally no reason other than sex tourism happens in Morocco. Its the definition of spurious.

Peregrinus wrote: »

I don't think I can be accused of making spurious assumptions unless I am at least making an assumption. Can you identify the assumption you think I am making?

You have been presented with the facts of the case, as reported. Instead of confining yourself to the facts you have introduced a completely spurious suggestion of sex tourism, you compounded this by introducing suggestions of sexual activity with minors. You did this not once but twice. You did this based on absolutely nothing other than the fact that sex tourism happens in Morocco and a certain proportion involves minors. You did this while minimizing the criminal sanctions applied to homosexual behaviour in Morocco. You have consistently ignored what has been reported, and introduced extraneous elements that have not been reported by any organisation, you did in the face of statements from the diplomatic missions from Morocco who when responding to criticism on this case reiterated that homosexuality was illegal in Morocco and refereed to it as unnatural behaviour.

Peregrinus wrote: »

My guess would be that, rightly or wrongly, the Moroccan authorities think that this guy has been engaged in sex tourism in Morocco with Moroccan sex workers.

That is an assumption. You wrote it. You are backtracking.

I am interested in the cultural implications and reactions to the behaviour of westerners particularly in developing countries.
I dont think its fair to expect them to automatically accept or adopt western values without making any attempt to understand what might have happened in that country in the past or in the present in its relationship with Europeans or Americans.

I would like to know more about the history of man/boy love in Morocco. Has that been a problem for them in the past, whats happening currently in that regard. The British man in question was with a Moroccan man in his 20s that the met online.

Why do so many western men go abroad to have sex with much younger men?
Do we see male couples with age gaps of several decades on the scene here in Ireland and how would that be looked upon. If being able to have relationships with much younger men is a western value and a gay right then why isnt it happening here, or is it, am I missing a complete sub set of the gay male scene and why do older men go abroad to have sex with youths.

Why when this comes up like it has recently in Ireland over at least two high profile cases do I mainly hear a defense of this practice from the gay community or arguments over the age of the boy/youth the rightness or wrongness balancing on whether or not it was legal.
Id like to hear more discussion on the morals of man/boy or man/youth love and I do think the fact that the older man has more money and power than the youth in a developing country is a major factor to this.
Is the pederasty Norris was talking about in historical terms more than just a historical cultural value among gay men?


Gay men want to disassociate themselves from pedophilia something that gay men have often been wrongly associated with, yet this practice of western men in their old age going abroad to developing countries have sex with youths young enough to question whether they have reached legal age is defended as a gay right . Why are men still doing this when homosexuality is now legal in their own home countries. I understand at one time it was said to be because gay men couldnt have sex at home and they had to go abroad but thats not the case now.

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Why are we bringing paedophilia into this discussion?

Who knows, but Pergrinus has repeatedly introduced sexual activity with underage individuals and even when challenged refused to retract it.

Peregrinus wrote: »

What I have said - and nobody has contradicted me on this - is that there is widespread public concern in Morocco about sex tourism involving underage Moroccan sex workers,

No one has contradicted you on that specific point because it is entirely irrelevant. However you have been challenged on several other points that you have failed to either engage with meaningfully or at all.

Peregrinus wrote: »

and this provides the context within which the arrest of this man for "just being gay" needs to be seen.

No it does not. There are also concerns about the drug trade, terrorism and fundamentalism in Morocco. Does this mans arrest need to be seen in this context as well?

Peregrinus wrote: »

I am not saying that this man was involved in the sex trade, whether with underage sex workers or with sex workers of legal age, and I have made that very clear. All I am saying is that if we are seeking to understand his arrest and detention the concern about this issue is obviously relevant.

You have contradicted yourself. Moreover you have contradicted the Moroccan authorities themselves. The man was arrested for homosexual behaviour, this is not in anyway in dispute, I really fail to understand why you can't comprehend this.

Cole and Nass (not his real name) had met online six months earlier, after the Briton had joined a group on Facebook. “I can’t remember the name of it,

In April, Cole, a retired newspaper production manager, flew out for a two-week holiday in Marrakech. There, he realised his feelings for the economics student were serious. Cole arranged another trip for September and rented an apartment in Marrakech.

“What I know now is we couldn’t have picked a worse place because … police had had a crackdown because male prostitutes had been operating in that area.” The first sign of hostility came from the concierge in the apartment block “glaring” at the couple.

On 18 September they left for the day to visit a local park.
“Jamal went off to ask somebody [directions]. I stood under the shade of a tree and then he came back and this guy came up and started to drag Jamal away – physically. He was a policeman in plain clothes. He took Jamal by the arm and said, ‘You’re coming with me’ in Arabic.” Nass was put in a nearby police van.

The officer started questioning Cole. “He said, ‘How do you know him? What’s he got to do with you?’ I said, ‘He’s staying with me.’ Then things got nasty. He pushed me away and warned, ‘Either you go or you’ll end up in the van with him.’ Jamal was really frightened, I couldn’t leave him.”

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/16/ray-cole-interview-jailed-morocco-homosexual

Is this not all that Peregrinus is talking about taking into consideration whats going on in the area and that maybe it is a factor in why this particular couple were picked on.
Yes its very very wrong that homosexuality is criminalized in Morocco and its a big gay rights issue.
It also seems to be true that the couple were living in an area where the authorities were having a very negative reaction to male prostitution and that this also played a part in their arrest. The couple fit the profile being a couple involving a young local man in his early 20s and a male tourist just about to turn 70. It seems the police were out to arrest the young Moroccan man and only arrested the British man when he would not leave his lover.

I dont understand why it seems to be so popular for gay men to go to places like Morocco or Dubai or other Muslim countries where it is illegal to be gay. Apparently there is a real history of homosexual activity in these areas despite legislation but surely the risks are already apparent before you go there.
Perhaps people are convinced its ok when nothing happens to them at first or when all their friends have found things to be safe enough at times but maybe local sensitivities are sometimes less tolerant about such relations between locals and tourists than they are at other times.

I know Ive watched episodes of Banged Up Abroad and practically screamed at the telly wondering why people do the things they do in such dangerous places.

Ive been trying to understand the history for this as gay men getting into trouble for being involved with young men from developing countries has come up as a controversial issue more than once in Ireland recently.
How Morocco became a haven for gay Westerners in the 1950s
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-29566539

For decades Tangier and other Moroccan cities were magnets for gay tourists. Prior to independence in 1956 Tangier was an international zone that was administered by several different European countries, without a very rigid rule of law. In the words of the English academic Andrew Hussey, Tangier was "a utopia of dangerous, unknown pleasures." The Americans who turned up in the 1950s were escaping from a repressive society where homosexuality was outlawed. In Morocco, attitudes were much more relaxed and, provided they were discreet, Westerners could indulge their desires, without fear of harassment, with a limitless supply of young locals in need of money, and smoke an equally limitless supply of the local cannabis.

The differential in wealth between foreigners and Moroccans created a thriving market in prostitution, but relations were not only based on the exchange of money. ......

In his early days in Tangier, Burroughs was not particularly sensitive to local culture. In a letter to Allen Ginsberg in 1954, he is not even able to keep track of his conquests:

"I go to bed with an Arab in European clothes. Several days later… I meet an Arab in native dress, and we repair to a Turkish bath. Now I am almost (but not quite) sure it is the same Arab. In any case I have not seen no.1 again... It's like I been to bed with 3 Arabs since arrival, but I wonder if it isn't the same character in different clothes, and every time better behaved, cheaper, more respectful… I really don't know for sure."

I think its really important to inform yourself about whats going on in an area you are about to go to particularly to take up work or a long stay and even for a short holiday if you are going to be doing anything that is considered illegal in that country. Sometimes some things are overlooked when tourists do them but the consequences for a local companion may be much harsher. I think its a mistake not to take local feelings into consideration, thats not saying I agree with the laws its just that I think westerners sometimes travel as though a countries laws dont apply to them or like they wont get hurt or arrested.

Peter Tatchell a man who has campaigned on gay rights around the world writes about Sex Tourism in Thailand and although its not about Morocco or a muslim country it deals extensively with the different perspectives of locals and westerners and the misunderstandings that can occur because of it. I think its a really interesting article quite challenging in places.

http://petertatchell.net/international/thailand/thailand.htm