Circumcision

[Hysteresis]

Originally posted by Gordon
Wow, you can actually grow your foreskin back now? *Now that's magic!

*said in a Paul daniels accent

It's not magic and it's not a real foreskin, simply the shaft skin grown longer enough to cover and protect the glans.

[daveirl]

Interesting Debate On K5 here - http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/1/14/184628/773

Basic agreement seems to be that you should only get it done if it is deemed necessary by a doctor.

Hysteresis,
You'll note from my previous posts that I'm against circumcision unless there is a medical need. You'll also note he says he has a medical need for this procedure. Thats why I support this guys decision to go ahead with the op....cause he obviously has a medical need! This guy isn't deciding to have a circumcision for a laugh or because it looks better etc so please dont start with that fundamentelist foreskin restoration league stuff. If you got circumcised as a baby/child and resent your parents for making that decision for you then fine. I'd say I'd feel the same way. If you feel so strongly that you are missing something and want to restore your foreskin then thats also fine. I just think thats a separate arguement. Were talking about medical circumcision in adulthood here not babies circumcised without consent.

There is steroid cream available that will loosen the foreskin in only 6 weeks.

Yeah great if you've got mild phimosis(tight foreskin) but absolutely no use if the condition is more severe. The fact that he has been referred to a urologist who has recommended the op to him suggests that the steroid treatment isn't suitable for him.

Wrong. There is no medical evidence to support this. There is also no medical proof that those who are circumcised suffer less urinary tract infections.

I'm sure what Devore meant is that its easier to clean. I'd say most uncircumcised men dont wash under the skin enough though, but no one mentioned incidents of urinary tract disease??

Again wrong. The glans' skin become harden, which greatly reduces sensitivty. Also, you loose the highly sensitive inner foreskin and the frenalum is destroyed.

A good surgeon will leave most of the frenulum intact. As for sensitivity. Well as I have already said in an earlier post, one does loose a certain amount of sensitivity but you have to remember that someone with a tight foreskin wont ever have been able to enjoy sex anywhere near fully
A. because the foreskin is painfully tight. Maybe you like pleasure with you pain or vice versa
or
B. It wont retract at all so the glans skin and the inner foreskin can be as sensitive as you like but when not exposed to external friction... a fat lot of good it does ye!
Sure post op he will be less sensitive than a normal uncircumcised man but seeing as he has no frame of reference himself then what he never new he will never miss. The sensations will still be ten times better than if he didn't have the op.

What most people don't realise is that the foreskin also acts as a "lubricant"/friction minimiser between the penis and vagina during sex. Sex with a circumcised can actually be painful for a women, which is why there's such a big lubrication market in America where approximately 65% of all men are circumcised.

I've never had any complaints on the friction front. Maybe your just not giving enough foreplay if you know what I mean.

[Enygma]

Original poster here.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------There is steroid cream available that will loosen the foreskin in only 6 weeks.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Yeah great if you've got mild phimosis(tight foreskin) but absolutely no use if the condition is more severe. The fact that he has been referred to a urologist who has recommended the op to him suggests that the steroid treatment isn't suitable for him.


Well, actually the doctor said I should get one done. I haven't been to the urologist yet (next monday). I'm defintetely going to ask him about this cream.
I don't think my phimosis is that severe, I have no problems pulling back the foreskin when flaccid and I can bring it back most of the way when erect. AFAIK there are much worse forms. We'll see on monday though, I would prefer the cream obviously.

Plus it seems there are various forms of circumcision i.e. partial so we won't have to go lopping off vast amounts of skin.

I dunno, when the doctor referred me to the urologist I thought it was the only option and didn't really mind. Now I'd much prefer the cream or some other non-destructive technique.

Thanks for the replies.

[Shinji]

From what I can gather, it's very much a case of "don't even think about it unless it's medically necessary". Anyone I know who's had the snip in later life certainly finds the desensitization to be a major factor; it's not that they can't enjoy sex or whatever, but they certainly don't get feelings as intense from their glans as non-circumcised males do.

Your foreskin isn't like your appendix, a wasted evolutionary dead end; it's there for a reason. Cutting it off unless it absolutely needs to be cut off is stupid.

And it's only cleaner if you're a filthy bastard who doesn't wash his knob often enough

[Shinji]

By the way I'd like to point out my disgust at Devore using this thread to push forward his pro-Jewish masonic loyalist imperialist capitalist agenda. The illuminati want your foreskin lopped off! It's all a plot!

[Washout]

Wasnt Circumcision introduced on religous grounds in that Sex is about procreation not about pleasure.

I know that same parents get their girls circumcised in islamic states. ie removal of the clitoris for that reason alone and its the same for baby boys.

Hygene was a factor introduced really late in the day

[Clintons Cat]

Nah hot weather + lack of water =Circumcison good idea

[DeVore]

Desensitised?? What??

Well if it's true you guys must get hard just pulling on your boxers! I've no complaints in the orgasm department thank you very much and maybe it will help in not "blowing you're load" in 2 mins...

And as for the "dont do it unless its a medical necessity" all I can say is "DUH!"

You mean to tell me someone SHOULDNT lop off their foreskin for FUN? WOW... YUO GUYS KN0W S0 MUHC!!

I highly doubt that knob-chopping is the next cRaZy pasttime... of course it should be for medical reasons.

My whole point is this:
Hey, if you have to have it done... dont listen to the people who go on about it like you are going to be disfigured and sexually stunted... thats just bollox (if you'll excuse the pun )

DeV.

ps: Hysteresis: Obviously you arent circumcised so perhaps you might listen to someone who is. Are you a doctor? Are you backing up your points with either real life experience or medical opinion/links?? You seem to be very strident on the issue.

[adnans]

Originally posted by Washout I know that same parents get their girls circumcised in islamic states. ie removal of the clitoris for that reason alone and its the same for baby boys.

when i was born (my parents were living and working in Libya at that point in time), i was circumcised at a very young age, few weeks or a month after the birth, or so i was told. it might be out of religious reasons or just a silly joke, but i can remember that i never had any problems afterwards.

oh yeah, the girls tend to call it 'automatic' for reasons i cant understand.

adnans

[Victor]

Originally posted by Washout
Wasnt Circumcision introduced on religous grounds in that Sex is about procreation not about pleasure.

Actually, in Judaeo-Christian-Muslim tradition, the Jews were the first to use circumcision and pleasuring your partner (first!) is specifically advocated by Judaism.

AFAIK with judaism its supposed to be a sacred pact with god or something. Offering part of ones body to the Lord etc etc. Obviously its one of the easiest parts of your body to lob off with the exception of your ear lobe I suppose. Islam just inherited the tradition from Judaism.

[Washout]

I was watchinhg this documentery on Nelson Mandella once and he was describing that the way a boy turns into a man in the tribe he was from is by having the overhang whacked with this thing that looked like a machete.

there might be the surgical alternative

[Synkronite]

A. nonimous, Islam did not just "inherit" this from Judaism based on sacrifice to God.

Get your facts right before posting.

Im not a religious scholar, so Im not sure. I think the first person who did this started from the time of Moses, and was first practised by a religion by Prophet Abraham. It's meant to be cleaner, and I dont see why people would be so pro or anti it.

Personally being circumsised, Ive had no problems with sex, and girls have rather enjoyed themselves (Or probably just tried to keep my hopes high

[Victor]

Originally posted by Synkronite
A. nonimous, Islam did not just "inherit" this from Judaism based on sacrifice to God. Get your facts right before posting.

So are you going to share with us what the association was? Did Islam decide to do it by itself or was there some other link?

[Drunk pirate]

I get a good laugh with my friend and his non-foreskin ways. I'd grab a shers and chase him around asking him is he getting any flashbacks. *Snip snip*.

Get out of the wrong side of the bed Synkronite ?

Originally posted by Synkronite
A. nonimous, Islam did not just "inherit" this from Judaism based on sacrifice to God.

Get your facts right before posting.

Im not a religious scholar, so Im not sure.............

If that isn't the cat calling the kettle black I don't know what is! I started my last post with AFAIK(As far as I know)Learn your Acronyms before you get snotty Synkronite. I wasn't claiming what I was saying was Gospel(pardon the pun! ) Then you go on to explain what you think you know about the religious origins of circumcision and start by saying

Im not a religious scholar, so Im not sure............. [/B]

You would be sure if you checked your facts before posting!! LMFAO(Look it up!)

[Hysteresis]

Originally posted by Enygma
Original poster here.

Well, actually the doctor said I should get one done. I haven't been to the urologist yet (next monday). I'm defintetely going to ask him about this cream.
I don't think my phimosis is that severe, I have no problems pulling back the foreskin when flaccid and I can bring it back most of the way when erect. AFAIK there are much worse forms. We'll see on monday though, I would prefer the cream obviously.

From http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Spa/4371/fraud.htm (reads a little emotionally to begin with, like most things american ):

"Treatment published in medical journal literature reports a 90% success rate with conservative treatment using a topical steroid (betamethasone valerate 0.5%2 or clobetasol propionate cream, 0.05%7). Some individuals in the 10% who are still unable to retract opt to leave their foreskin or their son’s foreskin alone. This is also a successful treatment for the restriction of the opening if urine flow is obstructed. Balloon dilation is another treatment that reported a 100% cure rate among 512 cases.8 "

More steroid cream sources:
http://www.cirp.org/library/treatment/phimosis/wright/ - medical study on the use of steroid cream for childhood phimosis
http://www.norm-uk.org/circumcision_...reatments.html - mentions a conservative surgical procedure called preputioplasty, which saves the foreskin.

Plus it seems there are various forms of circumcision i.e. partial so we won't have to go lopping off vast amounts of skin.

Definately mention the steroid cream, the preputioplasty procedure and the "balloon dilation" which I presume is similar to ballon skin expansion techniques for skin graphs (it also sounds a lot like the "packing" techniques foreskin restorers use, which involves packing sponge under the "fauxskin" while securing the shaft skin over the glans using surgical tape or an o-ring. The sponge puts pressure on the shaft skin covering the glans which causes it to grow).

If the urologist suggests a partial circumcison, it would likely be possible to restore the forskin to its proper length using non-surgical foreskin restoration techniques - you might want to mention this to the urologist also.

Hopefully, surgical methods will not be necessary and hopefully you'll get a sympathetic urologist with knowledge of the alternatives mentioned above.

[Hysteresis]

Originally posted by A. nonimous
Re: Surgical Cream...
Yeah great if you've got mild phimosis(tight foreskin) but absolutely no use if the condition is more severe. The fact that he has been referred to a urologist who has recommended the op to him suggests that the steroid treatment isn't suitable for him.

The thing is, your local GP is not an expert on foreskin anatomy - in fact, until the 1996 study conducted by Taylor, Lockwood & Taylor of the University of Manitoba, Canada (see two papers they've written here & here) a proper study on the anatomy of the foreskin had never been conducted. Today, medical students continue to be taught that the foreskin is merely a piece of skin that covers the glans, information which is based on 100 year old copys of Gray's Anatomy. Many urologists may not even be aware of these studies, unless they keep up with the various medical journals.

[Hysteresis]

Originally posted by DeVore
ps: Hysteresis: Obviously you arent circumcised so perhaps you might listen to someone who is. Are you a doctor? Are you backing up your points with either real life experience or medical opinion/links?? You seem to be very strident on the issue.

I was circumcised when I was 8 years, as my foreskin would not retract one bit. I can remember experiencing pain like I've never felt before or since, when the head urology guy in Temple St hospital forcibly retracted my foreskin, while pointing out to a group medical student and my mother what was wrong. I was circumcised a few weeks after.

To me, it was merely a colour change as I was not even aware that there was a foreskin there to retract until I was much older. Like you, it never really bothered me, until a couple years ago when I decided to do some internet research on what it was I had been removed and what it's function is. It was initially upsetting to read that I had lost the erogenously sensitive inner foreskin, which apparently has the same concentration of nerve endings as the lips.

But then I discovered non-surgical restoration (this is starting to sound like an infomercial, but I'll go on ). I personally tried this myself for an epic 6 weeks, using the T-Tape method. Before I had done this, my erections would be uncomfortable as the shaft skin was tight, presumably because I was tightly cut. After, the 6 weeks, although the skin had no noticeable visible difference, the shaft skin was now much looser, and my erections where no longer uncomfortable.

That was two years ago, and the results have remained permanent. For some reason, this gave me a great sense of acheivement and the knowledge that it's possible to restore a functional, if not anatomically correct, foreskin boosted my confidence.
I might come across a bit "strident" on the issue, because I find it disturbing that babys are having unnecessary circumcisions and that others are having circumcisions, for "medical reasons", without knowing that there are possible alternatives.

At least "strident" isn't as bad the highly emotional opinions that can be found on the foreskin restoration mailing lists, which is also the main reason why I don't read any of them anymore - far too much "I can't forgive my parents" bull****. Sadly a lot of the anti-circumcision/foreskin restoration websites come from the same emotive angle.

I have not continued with foreskin restoration to date as I can't be bothered with the awkwardness that goes with it, although I'm very pleased with the small amount of growth (and subsequent pain relief) I acheived, as it accomplished as much as I want. My main reason for trying restoring again, would be to prevent any discomfort a long term partner might experience from the friction of sexual intercourse, something the foreskin helps to prevent.

In summary, I like to know that people that people are properly informed on such a sensitve (excuse the pun ) issue and are aware of the negative effects it can have.