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Gambling is for cool people

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    #32
    CiaranC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,300 ✭✭✭CiaranC


    jive wrote: »
    If I give him odds and he takes them then great. If he wins then tough shít, I had the choice.
    Very good youve got it. Anyone who runs a book has a choice who and what they lay, beit a high street bookie, oncourse bookie, spread bettor, pool or exchange layer. Their only responsibility is to balance the book, not to your bizarre and naive ideas of "fairness". This is the essense of bookmaking, without it there would be no point in doing it.


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    #33
    jive
    Registered Users Posts: 5,762 ✭✭✭jive


    CiaranC wrote: »
    Very good youve got it. Anyone who runs a book has a choice who and what they lay, beit a high street bookie, oncourse bookie, spread bettor, pool or exchange layer. Their only responsibility is to balance the book, not to your bizarre and naive ideas of "fairness". This is the essense of bookmaking, without it there would be no point in doing it.

    Yes but there has to some liquidation. Betting on big events which obviously have large market depths and I am restrict to single digit stakes. What the bookies do is restrict those who they think have the potential to be a winning account in the long run, even when betting on events where it is obvious that there will be no fixing or any valuable insider information. This is, in my opinion, why it is 'unfair'.


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    #34
    Derek!
    Registered Users Posts: 2,103 ✭✭✭Derek!


    Personally I dont see how people winnin money from a bookies is so bad.
    Think about it they will always be in profit anyway cause the vast majority of people lose.


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    #35
    youcrazyjesus!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,146 ✭✭✭youcrazyjesus!


    OP stop boring me. I know several people making a good full time living off betting.


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    #36
    heavyballs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,683 ✭✭✭heavyballs


    youcrazyjesus! wrote: »
    OP stop boring me. I know several people making a good full time living off betting.

    I don't believe you,or your mates


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    #37
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 23,339 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    youcrazyjesus! wrote: »
    OP stop boring me. I know several people making a good full time living off betting.

    I know a couple who trade on the exchanges for a living, I don't know any pro punters though. I don't class trading as gambling, rightly or wrongly :)


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    #38
    Dailynaps
    Closed Accounts Posts: 184 ✭✭Dailynaps


    jive wrote: »
    Yes but there has to some liquidation. Betting on big events which obviously have large market depths and I am restrict to single digit stakes. What the bookies do is restrict those who they think have the potential to be a winning account in the long run, even when betting on events where it is obvious that there will be no fixing or any valuable insider information. This is, in my opinion, why it is 'unfair'.
    If winning accounts weren't restricted, there would be no betting industry and all the bookmakers would go bankrupt, probably within days.

    Assuming you're a winning punter, if you back a horse on an exchange you only do so because you know it's value in the long-run. So you are only taking money off losing punters and limiting winning punters by not backing poor value horses.


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    #39
    jive
    Registered Users Posts: 5,762 ✭✭✭jive


    Dailynaps wrote: »
    If winning accounts weren't restricted, there would be no betting industry and all the bookmakers would go bankrupt, probably within days.

    I'd hazard a guess that <2% of accounts are winning accounts. I know the industry wouldn't work if they took any and every bet (especially if there is the suspicion that a person has inside info on events). But to limit accounts where not much money is being staked to begin with (€10-100) and not much money is being won (if any) to 5s and 10s is ridiculous, IMO. Just because you don't back United at 1/6 every weekend shouldn't be reason to limit an account. I know it's how the industry works/prospers(not even going to use the word survives with regards to bookies) but it's not exactly fair.

    If you asked me a year ago I'd have said it was possible to make money from gambling but the reality of the industry is that it's not unless you have insider information and use an exchange. You might win money but for the research/time you'd have to put in to win it it wouldn't be worth it. Unless of course you can be arsed opening up new accounts with bookmakers with different cards every couple of months when you get limited. I just use gambling as a hobby now, I enjoy it and don't use it as a means to make proper money any more (although I like to win and get some money for my efforts just like anyone else!). It's enjoyable for me and makes things more exciting especially as a neutral. It's also nice to win a bet due to some sound reasoning prior to an event taking place and get one over on the bookies :P

    The best way to win money gambling is to open a bookmakers!! Some people put on some crazy bets :D It's probably possible for some people to make a living trading on betfair but I'd die young with the stress that'd come with it if I was even capable of doing that for a living :pac:


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    #40
    AstonMartin
    Registered Users Posts: 1,313 ✭✭✭AstonMartin


    Why did you choose that title for your thread?


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    #41
    johnmcdnl
    Registered Users Posts: 3,739 ✭✭✭johnmcdnl


    AstonMartin wrote: »
    Why did you choose that title for your thread?

    I think one of the mods editted it ;) if I'm not mistaken it was originally "gamblings if for fools" or something to that degree :pac:


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    #42
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 23,339 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    johnmcdnl wrote: »
    I think one of the mods editted it ;) ...................


    :cool:


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    #43
    GEM_13
    Registered Users Posts: 297 ✭✭GEM_13


    ft9 wrote: »
    Those of you who worked in the industry, what did ye do? On the counter or traders or????

    I'd love to work on the counter of a bookies, couldn't think of a better job actually, all that stops me is the hours. I would want all of Cheltenham off, all of Galway off, all weekends off, ha couldn't see that going down too well!

    Would be a cool job though.
    FT9,i have worked in betting shops,pubs and in a major supermarket-trust me,the betting shop was the worst of the lot.I think the reason for this is the fact that most of the time,the customer is getting nothing for the money when they hand it over.It ends up as a piece of rubbish in the bin.Don't get me wrong-there are some really nice punters out there but for every 1 of those,there are 4 a55holes.

    Betting shops are just like banks-they hold ur money and if they get to keep more than they pay out,thats a result.I have noticed guys proud as punch coming up to collect a winner(after 5 or 6 previous losers)and they burning the ear of some guy alongside them telling him about the bet.It's the whole"i beat the bookie buzz".The next time you are tempted to do this,keep this in mind....

    IT'S PROBABLY HIS MONEY YOU'RE TAKING AND HE DOESN'T CARE WHAT YOU WON-BECAUSE IF HE LOST YOU ARE POCKETING HIS MONEY.

    It is a win-win situation for the bookies.They will always make money and that's because there will always be guys trying to "Beat the bookie".For 99% of guys,this just isn't possible.If you want to make money you can't be emotional about losing money which most average punters are...


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    #44
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 23,339 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    GEM_13 wrote: »
    ..............They will always make money and that's because there will always be guys trying to "Beat the bookie".For 99% of guys,this just isn't possible.If you want to make money you can't be emotional about losing money which most average punters are...

    Excellent point, conceptually if you can persuade yourself that losers are part of the game and without them you can't have any winners you are on the road to being some way emotion free about them. The old staking plan in conjunction with that are essential tools to making a few quid. A betting office buddy of mine had a €300 treble on at the weekend, Celtic at 2/11 lost and his docket was dead. Why anyone would throw a 2/11 shot into a docket to make the overall odds 1/1 is beyond my comprehension (thankfully) but how people repeatedly do this chasing lark over and over again does play right into the bookies hands.


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    #45
    pakalasa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,552 ✭✭✭pakalasa


    I've just read through this thread. One thing I'm baffled by, why are people talking about gambling at the bookies when they can get higher odds on Betfair and the like.
    Surely, one of the golden rules of gambling is to get the highest odds, you possible can.:rolleyes:


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    #46
    mixed up
    Registered Users Posts: 493 ✭✭mixed up


    pakalasa wrote: »
    I've just read through this thread. One thing I'm baffled by, why are people talking about gambling at the bookies when they can get higher odds on Betfair and the like.
    Surely, one of the golden rules of gambling is to get the highest odds, you possible can.:rolleyes:

    I only usually use betfair to lay a horse i rather back horse wit (BOG) incase the horse drifts and if they reverse the decision i'll still get paid in the bookies.I just think im better off with (BOG) as i don't think the price is much better than the bookies unless i'm backing a real outsider :confused:


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    #47
    CiaranC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,300 ✭✭✭CiaranC


    pakalasa wrote: »
    I've just read through this thread. One thing I'm baffled by, why are people talking about gambling at the bookies when they can get higher odds on Betfair and the like.
    This isnt really true any more.

    BF arent even close to best price on any fav at kempton tonight for example. Thats before you take out the 5% commission.


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    #48
    premierstone
    Registered Users Posts: 7,706 ✭✭✭premierstone


    pakalasa wrote: »
    I've just read through this thread. One thing I'm baffled by, why are people talking about gambling at the bookies when they can get higher odds on Betfair and the like.
    Surely, one of the golden rules of gambling is to get the highest odds, you possible can.:rolleyes:
    mixed up wrote: »
    I only usually use betfair to lay a horse i rather back horse wit (BOG) incase the horse drifts and if they reverse the decision i'll still get paid in the bookies.I just think im better off with (BOG) as i don't think the price is much better than the bookies unless i'm backing a real outsider :confused:
    CiaranC wrote: »
    This isnt really true any more.

    BF arent even close to best price on any fav at kempton tonight for example. Thats before you take out the 5% commission.

    Depends what your betting on really, for many sports there is absolutely no liquidity in the market and alot of the time the as Ciaran says the % difference in price is offset by the commission (5% is a little off as it drops based on your activity).

    All that said I would never have a golf bet with a high street bookies the prices on BF for golf are soooo much better its crazy.


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    #49
    J-Fit
    Registered Users Posts: 472 ✭✭J-Fit


    Betfair are gradually morphing into a bookmaker and are rumoured to be closing some accounts now due to premium charge avoidance. What people don't realise is that if you start to make really good money on Betfair, you will be asked to pay 22% commission (on average). If you begin to make really, really good money, that will rise to 40-60% of your overall profits. Still, short of Betdaq ever waking up, it's still the best way of making money via gambling (trading IS gambling!), and I suppose the premium charges are no different to income tax if you are in at that level of profitability.


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    #50
    digme
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,584 ✭✭✭digme


    J-Fit wrote: »
    Betfair are gradually morphing into a bookmaker and are rumoured to be closing some accounts now due to premium charge avoidance. What people don't realise is that if you start to make really good money on Betfair, you will be asked to pay 22% commission (on average). If you begin to make really, really good money, that will rise to 40-60% of your overall profits. Still, short of Betdaq ever waking up, it's still the best way of making money via gambling (trading IS gambling!), and I suppose the premium charges are no different to income tax if you are in at that level of profitability.
    Have you any articles? I've not heard anything about this.


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    #51
    J-Fit
    Registered Users Posts: 472 ✭✭J-Fit


    digme wrote: »
    Have you any articles? I've not heard anything about this.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/jun/29/betfair-premium-charge-increase

    No prob, here you go.

    It never ceases to amaze me how little people actually know about these charges and the reason is simple: Betfair said barely anything about it when they announced it. They only posted it on their website in the announcement section and only in English. The 22% charge has been in since 2008. The 60% one was introduced around 6 weeks ago and affect a hell of a lot more people than Betfair are letting on.


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    #52
    SteelyDanJalapeno
    Registered Users Posts: 14,237 ✭✭✭✭SteelyDanJalapeno


    60% :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:


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    #53
    SteelyDanJalapeno
    Registered Users Posts: 14,237 ✭✭✭✭SteelyDanJalapeno


    J-Fit wrote: »
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/jun/29/betfair-premium-charge-increase

    No prob, here you go.

    It never ceases to amaze me how little people actually know about these charges and the reason is simple: Betfair said barely anything about it when they announced it. They only posted it on their website in the announcement section and only in English. The 22% charge has been in since 2008. The 60% one was introduced around 6 weeks ago and affect a hell of a lot more people than Betfair are letting on.

    Interesting article.......

    Never really thought about punters at live events while online having an edge.


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    #54
    pakalasa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,552 ✭✭✭pakalasa


    J-Fit wrote: »
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/jun/29/betfair-premium-charge-increase

    Very clever marketing, don't you think?
    That's all it is.


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    #55
    J-Fit
    Registered Users Posts: 472 ✭✭J-Fit


    pakalasa wrote: »
    Very clever marketing, don't you think?
    That's all it is.

    What?:eek: How? There's people that make their living of sports trading. Do you think they see it merely as marketing?


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    #56
    pakalasa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,552 ✭✭✭pakalasa


    TiltedBrain wrote: »
    Never really thought about punters at live events while online having an edge.

    They're the guys you see on the roofs looking at games with a labtop in their hands.


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    #57
    J-Fit
    Registered Users Posts: 472 ✭✭J-Fit


    pakalasa wrote: »
    They're the guys you see on the roofs looking at games with a labtop in their hands.

    Not sure what exactly you mean by that but it's untrue either way.


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    #58
    pakalasa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,552 ✭✭✭pakalasa


    Have a read of this. Where does it say that you pay a 60% tax.

    Max of 60% DISCOUNT RATE on the comision rate alright.

    http://www.betfair.com/aboutUs/Betfair.Charges/


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    #59
    pakalasa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,552 ✭✭✭pakalasa


    J-Fit wrote: »
    Not sure what exactly you mean by that but it's untrue either way.
    I've seen them at big GAA matches. If a goal is scored for example, they try and get a bet in before anyone else has time to react on-line. Say if a goal is scored in the last few mins of a very tight game. Makes sense to me.


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    #60
    pakalasa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,552 ✭✭✭pakalasa


    J-Fit wrote: »
    What?:eek: How? There's people that make their living of sports trading. Do you think they see it merely as marketing?
    Marketing on the part of Betfair - as in you too can earn over €250k from just trading. Why would Betfair charge a levy of 60% on winnings. A sure way to kill teeh golden goose. They make money on turnover. They don't care if ait all goes to a very select few.


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    #61
    J-Fit
    Registered Users Posts: 472 ✭✭J-Fit


    pakalasa wrote: »
    Have a read of this. Where does it say that you pay a 60% tax.

    Max of 60% DISCOUNT RATE on the comision rate alright.

    http://www.betfair.com/aboutUs/Betfair.Charges/

    My God, your ignorance is palpable. I'll tell you where it says it. Scroll down almost to the end where it says the following:
    †Premium Charges at higher rates

    Higher rates of Premium Charge will apply to the very small number of customers (less than 0.1%) that satisfy the following conditions over the lifetime of their account:

    Lifetime net profits*** exceed £250,000
    Commission generated less than 40% of lifetime gross profits
    Bet in more than 1,000 markets
    The Premium Charge rate applied to each customer that satisfies these conditions is dependent on their lifetime commission generated to gross profits ratio. The exact rate will be determined by the following table:

    Lifetime commission generated to gross profits ratio Applicable Premium Charge Rate
    < 5% 60%
    5% - 10% 50%
    10%+ 40%

    For your convenience, I've attached the link which you kindly attached for me. Go ahead it's right there at the end! Some traders do in fact pay 60%!

    Do you think I made up the article from The Guardian?

    http://www.betfair.com/aboutUs/Betfair.Charges/


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