Dangerous kickback from EU mnf drill with EC marking caused injury

mrjoneill · 21-05-2012 2:49pm #1

There is so much information out there don’t know what direction to take but here goes.
Purchased a powerful CE marked drill slightly over 1kw rating in power recently, was aware from the start it was something to be wary of it. I have being using electric drills with years for DIY without issue, my old one a Black and Decker the chuck is not latching properly so the drill needed replacing. The handbook with the new drill has no mention of the dangerous kickback of the drill.
While using it with a spade drill-bit on timber doing DIY the drill bit got jammed and the kickback caused me a nasty hand injury breaking one of my fingers badly. Would appear my hand got trapped in the handle with the kickback. Have reported it to the supermarket and the NCA. The supermarket group want me to return them the drill, this I have hesitated on doing. The drill was manufactured in Germany.

What next, should such a powerful drill without anti-kickback safety be on sale on supermarkets, what are the EU and national rules on such, there appears to be so much general information out there any ideas to what’s specific to this, what accessibility is there to the manufacturer EC compliance application. Any case law or national or international codes of practice on such powerful drills. I understand from checking major mnf of such powerful drill they have in build safety features of clutches and electronic inertia sensing to prevent kickback.

ejmaztec · 21-05-2012 3:25pm

mrjoneill wrote: »

There is so much information out there don’t know what direction to take but here goes.
Purchased a powerful CE marked drill slightly over 1kw rating in power recently, was aware from the start it was something to be wary of it. I have being using electric drills with years for DIY without issue, my old one a Black and Decker the chuck is not latching properly so the drill needed replacing. The handbook with the new drill has no mention of the dangerous kickback of the drill.
While using it with a spade drill on timber doing DIY the drill bit got jammed and the kickback caused me a nasty hand injury breaking one of my fingers badly. Would appear my hand got trapped in the handle with the kickback. Have reported it to the supermarket and the NCA. The supermarket group want me to return them the drill, this I have hesitated on doing. The drill was manufactured in Germany.

What next, should such a powerful drill without anti-kickback safety be on sale on supermarkets, what are the EU and national rules on such, there appears to be so much general information out there any ideas to what’s specific to this, what accessibility is there to the manufacturer EC compliance application. Any case law or national or international codes of practice on such powerful drills. I understand from checking major mnf of such powerful drill they have in build safety features of clutches and electronic inertia sensing to prevent kickback.

Perhaps it's a Far-east knock-off with forged EU labels?

mrjoneill · 21-05-2012 3:47pm

ejmaztec wrote: »

Perhaps it's a Far-east knock-off with forged EU labels?

There are fake EC marked goods out there this is not the case, it was sold by a well known supermarket multiple group here in Ireland and the mnf is clearly stated on it, its German and have a web page and the supermarket that sold it states this to be correct.

BrianD · 21-05-2012 4:44pm

Is there any reason why you would not return the drill? Photograph it, keep all the serial numbers and the manuals.

There seems to be poor information for consumers who want to check on CE regulations and BSI standards. Most resources seem to charge for the info. The NCA should be able to advise.

You would probably be best getting legal advice.

mrjoneill · 21-05-2012 5:59pm

BrianD wrote: »

Is there any reason why you would not return the drill? Photograph it, keep all the serial numbers and the manuals.

There seems to be poor information for consumers who want to check on CE regulations and BSI standards. Most resources seem to charge for the info. The NCA should be able to advise.

You would probably be best getting legal advice.

As for returning the drill, I don’t at this stage like to lose complete control over the product involved. I have no problem where it’s a controlled situation where I have an input and control. As a rule mnf and sellers first try to get control over what’s in dispute. This would then leave me out of the loop and could lead to problems down the line should I wish to pursue this further in the courts.

I’m looking for pointers here from anyone who has being down this road or can refer me to cases where similar occurred. From what I understand the CE and BSI are totally different in attainment. The CE standard is one which mnf declares compliance to EU abstract standards whereas the BSI which is a British standard does the actual testing and is much more comprehensive and technical in compliance to standards which the courts here have being following as benchmarking what’s an acceptable standard where there is an absence of standards. As for the NCA what I understand its fulfilling a national safety monitoring role as required by EU legislation on products sold within the EU but as such it’s not really geared up for technical issues and reporting back to the consumer or for that matter advising the consumer on technical issues.

Procrastastudy · 21-05-2012 7:15pm

If the supermarket won't give you the manufacturer then they can be held liable. The manufacturer / European importer is the one you'll go after. It highly unlikely that the markings are fake if it's being sold in a supermarket chain but it's not impossible.

Have a look at http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1991/en/act/pub/0028/index.html
for the act concerning defective and dangerous products.

Theres many solicitors out there that will assess the case for free if that'd the road you want to go down. Smart man for not giving it back!

BrianD · 21-05-2012 8:02pm

Well it is conceivable that a major retailer could sell "counterfeit goods". I recall an Aussie music retailer inadvertantly bought counterfeit stock and ended up in an embarrassing situation. Apparently it was a genuine situation.

You have a nasty injury caused by using a product. You should get legal representation so you have advice on every step you take. Looking for advice here is the wrong way to proceed. Give it to an expert to handle.

BTW you are probably right to hold on to it but they may think that you have an ulterior motive to hold on to it.. What you need to find is a mutually agreeable independent assessor to test that it meets the standard.

mrjoneill · 21-05-2012 8:59pm

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

If the supermarket won't give you the manufacturer then they can be held liable. The manufacturer / European importer is the one you'll go after. It highly unlikely that the markings are fake if it's being sold in a supermarket chain but it's not impossible.

Have a look at http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1991/en/act/pub/0028/index.html
for the act concerning defective and dangerous products.

Theres many solicitors out there that will assess the case for free if that'd the road you want to go down. Smart man for not giving it back!

I’m aware of that piece of legislation but I assumed it has being superseded by EU directives namely Directive 2006/42/EC which in turn superseding/amended Directive 2005/42/EC. I suppose there is similarity in both but the EU directive appears more comprehensive.

DIRECTIVE 2006/42/EC
(14)The essential health and safety requirements should be
satisfied in order to ensure that machinery is safe; these
requirements should be applied with discernment to take
account of the state of the art at the time of construction
and of technical and economic requirements.

(15) Where the machinery may be used by a consumer, that
is to say, a non-professional operator, the manufacturer
should take account of this in the design and construction.
The same applies where a machine is normally
used to provide a service to a consumer.

The Member States had until 29th June 2008 to adopt and publish the national laws and regulations transposing the provisions of the new Directive into national law. I’m unable to find this transposition in Irish law. From my understanding coming from the sentinel ECJ case Francovich v. Italy and of more recent Ex Parte Hedley Lomas (Ireland) which established that European Union member states could be liable to pay compensation to individuals who suffered a loss by reason of the member state's failure to transpose an EU directive into national law. Since it’s against a non state entity the Directive cannot have horizontal direct effect ie apply directly in its un-transposed form against a person or corporate entity that has no state association as per Van Colson, and Pubblico Ministero v. Ratti.
The supermarket is not in dispute with me on the mnf of the drill as it’s stamped on it. I to date failed to get a response of the technical specifications from the mnf that it gave the EU to get its CE approval. It all seems so complicated it would be nice and neat to have the supermarket the vendor to so answer since they are in Ireland and such don’t like adverse publicity.

As for returning the product in dispute as I posted earlier all so liable like to get their hands on this and I informed the supermarket it’s just the same as the other drills it has in stock. It’s a cardinal mistake of a consumer to comply with without proper advice.

I’m just teasing out the issues involved and I’m not relying on this for professional advice.

TeaServer · 21-05-2012 9:34pm

There are a number of factors to be considered before the drill manufacturer can be held liable. Are you certain the drill in question is faulty?

Was the drill-bit you used at the time of the accident provided by the drill manufacturer?
Was the drill-bit suitable for the task you were using it for?
Were you using the drill correctly?

Accidents happen all the time with power tools that are not used properly. Its probably best to get expert advice on this, where all the relevant details can be checked

brightspark · 21-05-2012 9:43pm

OP given that you purchased the drill, from what you describe is probably one of the German supermarkets known for their competive prices perhaps that is the reason why not all possible safety features have been incorporated?

(14)The essential health and safety requirements should be
satisfied in order to ensure that machinery is safe; these
requirements should be applied with discernment to take
account of the state of the art at the time of construction
and of technical and economic requirements.

I am also a little puzzled why you refered to BS standards (British) , surely you should be looking for the relevant Irish Standards (I.S.) or the European harmonised standards (EN) or even the German (DIN) standard.

I think it's surprising that we don't hear of more accidents involving cheap power tools.

Not so long ago only tradesmen could justify the expense, but now almost anyone can afford a variety of power tools.

Now I'm not saying that the OP is unskilled as he said

"I have being using electric drills with years for DIY without issue",

but many people are unaware of all the potential dangers of power tools. One of the first things I was made aware of when using a power drill for the first time was that it was possible for the bit to jam and cause the drill to twist violently in my hand, esp dangerous if it happens up a ladder!

The German supermarkets have also been know to sell air compressors. In industrial environments air receivers must be periodically inspected and checked to ensure that they will not explode, how many of the ones sold in supermarkets will ever be checked?

Perhaps it would be a good thing to have them pay a large compensation claim, it may result in them deciding not to continue selling such equipment to amateurs.

davo10 · 21-05-2012 9:44pm

Op you said the drill bit jammed in the wood while you were using it, were you using it correctly?. Is this the type of machine professional qualified tradesmen would use as opposed to the less powerful drills used by weekend DIY'ers?. To get a CE mark, is it fair to assume it has to pass safety standards which may well be related to use by a skilled/qualified operator?. An analogy would be the safety of a certain type of car but it is assumed you actually are qualified to drive it. Before going further, it might be worth asking a qualified carpenter/plumber to test the drill and give an opinion.

mrjoneill · 21-05-2012 10:13pm

TeaServer wrote: »

There are a number of factors to be considered before the drill manufacturer can be held liable. Are you certain the drill in question is faulty?

Was the drill-bit you used at the time of the accident provided by the drill manufacturer?
Was the drill-bit suitable for the task you were using it for?
Were you using the drill correctly?

Accidents happen all the time with power tools that are not used properly. Its probably best to get expert advice on this, where all the relevant details can be checked

Accidents happen all the time through incorrect usage of power tools but in my case it was not incorrect usage or a faulty device. Drill bits get jammed all the time in usage but the consequence of such should not result in a serious injury. My previous experience of drills was such a kickback force can be controlled by firmly holding the drill. Its high power drills in the 1kW range that the kickback can’t be controlled unless it has in build safety features such as mechanical clutch or electronic inertia detection to turn off the current or disengage the transmission of power. Most of the mnf of such high powered drills have now incorporated such safety features.

mrjoneill · 21-05-2012 10:19pm

davo10 wrote: »

Op you said the drill bit jammed in the wood while you were using it, were you using it correctly?. Is this the type of machine professional qualified tradesmen would use as opposed to the less powerful drills used by weekend DIY'ers?. To get a CE mark, is it fair to assume it has to pass safety standards which may well be related to use by a skilled/qualified operator?. An analogy would be the safety of a certain type of car but it is assumed you actually are qualified to drive it. Before going further, it might be worth asking a qualified carpenter/plumber to test the drill and give an opinion.

It was sold in an Irish multiple supermarket as a DIY tool and the handbook with it had no warning on the dangerous kickback effect. And it’s not possible for any human to control the kickback in this drill as the power is beyond human control whether it be professional trades person or amateur.

Pottler · 21-05-2012 10:25pm

mrjoneill wrote: »

Accidents happen all the time through incorrect usage of power tools but in my case it was not incorrect usage or a faulty device. Drill bits get jammed all the time in usage but the consequence of such should not result in a serious injury. My previous experience of drills was such a kickback force can be controlled by firmly holding the drill. Its high power drills in the 1kW range that the kickback can’t be controlled unless it has in build safety features such as mechanical clutch or electronic inertia detection to turn off the current or disengage the transmission of power. Most of the mnf of such high powered drills have now incorporated such safety features.

Were these listed as features of the drill in question? Did the safe use instructions refer to the possibility of kickback? I'm not defending the drill - I use drills during the course of my work and some are simply arm-breakers by design. I usually stop using them but some of the high powered masonry drills just do not function with a slip clutch as they then cannot drill through re-bar without slipping the clutch. They are arm breakers by their nature and so you need to be very experienced to use them. I agree that it is bad practice to sell such powerful tools to the general public and doubt if you are alone in getting injured in such a manner.

mrjoneill · 21-05-2012 10:50pm

Pottler wrote: »

Were these listed as features of the drill in question? Did the safe use instructions refer to the possibility of kickback? I'm not defending the drill - I use drills during the course of my work and some are simply arm-breakers by design. I usually stop using them but some of the high powered masonry drills just do not function with a slip clutch as they then cannot drill through re-bar without slipping the clutch. They are arm breakers by their nature and so you need to be very experienced to use them. I agree that it is bad practice to sell such powerful tools to the general public and doubt if you are alone in getting injured in such a manner.

I was not aware of this danger till I had the accident, but I was wary of the drill power and the need to be careful but not that it would cause a serious injury. There is no inbuilt safety features that I mentioned in the drill, which probably makes it so cheap, prob a form of irresponsible dumping. I was not aware of such safety features till I did some research post accident.
There is no mention of kickback dangers in the drill instruction book. I do agree it’s totally irresponsible to sell such tools to the unsuspecting public and this was my complaint to the supermarket and that such tools should be recalled. It would seem on the face of it there is no legal liability on the vendor as it’s the manf that the law rests this liability on. If this is the case it’s a serious legal defect.

Pottler · 21-05-2012 11:41pm

The difficulty also extends to chainsaws, which I do not think should be sold to anybody without proper training and experience as they can rip you open in the blink of an eye. I'd say if you google diy accidents, they keep the A&E very busy. Sorry to hear you got hurt btw.

Procrastastudy · 22-05-2012 12:14am

Possibly start a thread in the Legal Discussion forum - you're not really looking for advice if you keep it to a discussion of the EU Directives.

Pkiernan · 22-05-2012 3:00am

Another example of the nanny state in my opinion.

I suppose every chainsaw should also carry this warning sign. After all, if we're not told not to do it, then how can it be our fault.

Cuddlesworth · 22-05-2012 7:54am

mrjoneill wrote: »

It was sold in an Irish multiple supermarket as a DIY tool and the handbook with it had no warning on the dangerous kickback effect. And it’s not possible for any human to control the kickback in this drill as the power is beyond human control whether it be professional trades person or amateur.

Its entirely possible to control them when they jam. I spent a year of my life drilling through masonry on more powerful drills. You will only damage yourself when the torsion is able to transfer into the wrist through improper use. Its possible to do on the smaller 500 watt drills as well.

I think your fighting against common sense here.

ejmaztec · 22-05-2012 12:17pm

Pkiernan wrote: »

Another example of the nanny state in my opinion.

I suppose every chainsaw should also carry this warning sign. After all, if we're not told not to do it, then how can it be our fault.

I don't think it's anything to do with the nanny state, as safety features on tools and equipment have been evolving since long before that expression ever saw the light of day.

Cabaal · 22-05-2012 1:11pm

brightspark wrote: »

The German supermarkets have also been know to sell air compressors. In industrial environments air receivers must be periodically inspected and checked to ensure that they will not explode, how many of the ones sold in supermarkets will ever be checked?

Perhaps it would be a good thing to have them pay a large compensation claim, it may result in them deciding not to continue selling such equipment to amateurs.

Thats crap,
Thats like saying if somebody guys a car and doesn't get it serviced it'll break down and the car dealer is at fault. (after all most people don't know how to service a car etc)

At the end of the day the item comes with a manual and safety instructions including depending on the type of item the requirement to ensure its serviced.

If people choose to ignore these instructions then its nobody else fault but their own. Once again your post is another example of people in our society wanting to blame somebody else instead of taking responsibility for their own failings.

keithclancy · 22-05-2012 1:16pm

mrjoneill wrote: »

I was not aware of this danger till I had the accident, but I was wary of the drill power and the need to be careful but not that it would cause a serious injury. There is no inbuilt safety features that I mentioned in the drill, which probably makes it so cheap, prob a form of irresponsible dumping. I was not aware of such safety features till I did some research post accident.
There is no mention of kickback dangers in the drill instruction book. I do agree it’s totally irresponsible to sell such tools to the unsuspecting public and this was my complaint to the supermarket and that such tools should be recalled. It would seem on the face of it there is no legal liability on the vendor as it’s the manf that the law rests this liability on. If this is the case it’s a serious legal defect.

I would have thought that was a given

?

Also things such as drilling a pilot hole before making shíte of it with a large bit, or using a steel bit for steel, wood for wood, concrete for concrete ??

Are they supposed to write how to drill a hole in the manual ? How big is it supposed to be ?

M cebee · 22-05-2012 1:22pm

doubt you'll have any case
You have to hold a drill correctly to prevent injury

aujopimur · 22-05-2012 1:22pm

As the old saying goes, a bad workman blames his tools.
In my opinion and experience, which is a lot, any drill no matter how small is capable of causing injury whether used by a DIYer or an experienced operator.

mrjoneill · 22-05-2012 1:37pm

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Its entirely possible to control them when they jam. I spent a year of my life drilling through masonry on more powerful drills. You will only damage yourself when the torsion is able to transfer into the wrist through improper use. Its possible to do on the smaller 500 watt drills as well.

I think your fighting against common sense here.

It would appear there is a conflict in this statement in that
Its entirely possible to control them when they jam.
and
You will only damage yourself when the torsion is able to transfer into the wrist through improper use.

It’s the nature of the beast that drill bits get snagged especially spade-bits and hole-drill-bits whether they are for concrete or timber.

mrjoneill · 22-05-2012 1:41pm

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

Possibly start a thread in the Legal Discussion forum - you're not really looking for advice if you keep it to a discussion of the EU Directives.

Just did on the legal aspects

UDP · 22-05-2012 2:22pm

Was there any warning in the manual about not using the drill unless trained to do so or that using a power tool carries dangers?

mrjoneill · 22-05-2012 2:29pm

UDP wrote: »

Was there any warning in the manual about not using the drill unless trained to do so or that using a power tool carries dangers?

No, the only warning was of electrical shock, and the use of protection of hearing, dust and safety goggles.
There is a complete absence of warning of "kickback".

baords dyslexic · 22-05-2012 3:37pm

OP do you have the spec of the drill written down in the instructions. Most will tell you the max drill size the drill is capable of using for a particular materia. So if it says 20mm wood and you were drilling a 30mm hole in wood then that would be outside the scope of the drills use.

brightspark · 22-05-2012 6:28pm

Cabaal wrote: »

Thats crap,
Thats like saying if somebody buys a car and doesn't get it serviced it'll break down and the car dealer is at fault. (after all most people don't know how to service a car etc).

And that's one of the reasons why we have the NCT.

I never refered to who was actually at fault, just that without proper training a lot of the power tools sold in the supermarkets are dangerous if used incorrectly.

Cabaal wrote: »

At the end of the day the item comes with a manual and safety instructions including depending on the type of item the requirement to ensure its serviced..

It's been my experience that most people will do anything BUT read the manual.

Cabaal wrote: »

If people choose to ignore these instructions then its nobody else fault but their own. Once again your post is another example of people in our society wanting to blame somebody else instead of taking responsibility for their own failings.

I'm sorry that you got the opinion from my post that it is acceptable for people to blame others,

My point (though obviously not well made by me) was that if, as a result of being made to pay compensation to people, the supermarkets decided to stop selling power tools, (because of the EU directive referred to by the OP requiring higher safety standards for tools sold to DIYer's than to professionals), it might result in less people getting injured.

(I don't really care whose fault it is, I'd prefer if people didn't get injured).

Hopefully I have made my views clearer

Cuddlesworth · 23-05-2012 10:03am

mrjoneill wrote: »

It would appear there is a conflict in this statement in that
Its entirely possible to control them when they jam.
and
You will only damage yourself when the torsion is able to transfer into the wrist through improper use.

It’s the nature of the beast that drill bits get snagged especially spade-bits and hole-drill-bits whether they are for concrete or timber.

There is no conflict.

Its entirely possible to control them when they jam when held correctly, when held incorrectly there is a risk of damage to the hand and wrist.

As said above, stop blaming other people for your lack of common sense.

Dangerous kickback from EU mnf drill with EC marking caused injury

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