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I have two gay friends voting no

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2

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    #32
    Optimalprimerib
    Registered Users Posts: 1,885 ✭✭✭Optimalprimerib


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I know a gay man voting no. He's against marriage in general which is fine but it's incredibly selfish to deny something to the general population just because he doesn't fancy it for himself. He's also of the opinion it's the role of gay people to be unconventional and non conformist so marriage doesn't suit that. I find his attitude quite depressing.

    With this referendum is there a vibe of alot of straight people jumping on the yes band wagon just so they can be seen as liberal and modern when really they don't give a ****?


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    #33
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Optimalprimerib wrote: »
    With this referendum is there a vibe of alot of straight people jumping on the yes band wagon just so they can be seen as liberal and modern when really they don't give a ****?

    Or maybe we just believe in equality ?


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    #34
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    Sheep Lover wrote: »
    I'm voting no as I want to protect children's rights to a loving mother and father. Your friend is dead right to voice his opinion on this and vote accordingly.

    What kids will be denied rights to a loving mother and father specifically because 2 men or 2 women have a marriage licence?


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    #35
    NJto.IE
    Registered Users Posts: 55 ✭✭NJto.IE


    That's odd. There's no reason to vote to harm other gay people's ability to be married if he isn't interested in it.


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    #36
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    Optimalprimerib wrote: »
    With this referendum is there a vibe of alot of straight people jumping on the yes band wagon just so they can be seen as liberal and modern when really they don't give a ****?

    Ill readily admit to not really giving a **** about marriage (in general) . I'm with my girlfriend about 15 years now and we have 2 kids. Getting married is down the list of priorities for us for many reasons.

    I'm fully prepared to spend 10 minutes of my time to let other people make the same choice for themselves though.

    Outside of boards I've spoken very little to people about the referendum or my voting intentions. So my being seen as liberal and modern is a bit pointless as its anonymous.


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    #37
    catbear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,092 ✭✭✭catbear


    I knew paddy manning long before this issue and in nearly all matters he was always a ham fisted contrayian git!


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    #38
    J_E
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,734 ✭✭✭J_E


    catbear wrote: »
    I knew paddy manning long before this issue and in nearly all matters he was always a ham fisted contrayian git!

    He lives off attention and the back patting of people who sneer behind his back.


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    #39
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    Optimalprimerib wrote: »
    With this referendum is there a vibe of alot of straight people jumping on the yes band wagon just so they can be seen as liberal and modern when really they don't give a ****?

    Not true for everyone, but for quite many people I think it is the case. They love themselves fighting for what they are told is a good cause. Doesn't matter what the cause is really, as long as it is trendy, makes them feel like a good person and is widely recognised within their social circle.

    Think ice bucket challenge: everybody took part so that they could share a video on their Facebook wall and get comments from their friends, but a few months down the line who cares or even remembers about ALS?
    To me in many cases the "yes equality" buttons people are wearing are the offline equivalent of the ice bucket videos on Facebook.

    Of course I am not talking about the large number of people who are voting yes and are not making a big deal about it, or people who have long been gay rights activists and are obviously very involved in this. The group I am on about are the ones who have never been involved in gay rights campaigns until recently and are now very vocal about their yes vote and like to display it publicly.


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    #40
    Jjiipp79
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 374 ✭✭Jjiipp79


    This might help a little..

    http://www.downsyndrome.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/RefCom_Indepedent-Guide_DSI_FINAL.pdf


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    #41
    J_E
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,734 ✭✭✭J_E


    Bob24 wrote: »
    Not true for everyone, but for quite many people I think it is the case. They love themselves fighting for what they are told is a good cause. Doesn't matter what the cause is really, as long as it is trendy, makes them feel like a good person and is widely recognised within their social circle.

    Think ice bucket challenge: everybody took part so that they could share a video on their Facebook wall and get comments from their friends, but a few months down the line who cares or even remembers about ALS?
    To me in many cases the "yes equality" buttons people are wearing are the offline equivalent of the ice bucket videos on Facebook.

    Of course I am not talking about the large number of people who are voting yes and are not making a big deal about it, or people who have long been gay rights activists and are obviously very involved in this. The group I am on about are the ones who have never been involved in gay rights campaigns until recently and are now very vocal about their yes vote and like to display it publicly.

    Think that discredits them - it takes a bit more bravery to wear a Yes badge out.


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    #42
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    J_E wrote: »
    Think that discredits them - it takes a bit more bravery to wear a Yes badge out.

    I would definitely agree it is more of a commitment than a Facebook post as it is done in real life and displayed publicly.

    But I am not sure about the bravery aspect of it, as in my opinion it is actually something a number of people are wearing to get social recognition.

    I know saying this is not popular and will sound cynical - but I really think a large number of these people will have completely forgotten about same sex marriage a month for now, and will be waiting for the next fashionable cause to fight for (preferably after their summer holiday).

    No saying it means these causes are worthless, more than people should reflect on their own motives.


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    #43
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Bob24 wrote: »
    I would definitely agree it is more of a commitment than a Facebook post as it is done in real life and displayed publicly.

    But I am not sure about the bravery aspect of it, as in my opinion it is actually something a number of people are wearing to get social recognition.

    I know saying this is not popular and will sound cynical - but I really think a large number of these people will have completely forgotten about same sex marriage a month for now, and will be waiting for the next for the next fashionable cause to fight for (preferably after their summer holiday).

    No saying it means these causes are worthless, more than people should reflect on their own motives.

    I would like to give people the benefit of the doubt and hope they are doing it because they believe its important. Its an easy cause to get behind because most people know a gay person so it has that personal resonance that may not be the case with other issues. Its much harder to be against it when its something that directly affects your family member or friend.


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    #44
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,795 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    gravehold wrote: »
    Please thank your friends to me, they got so many people to vote no with their tantrum of remove posters showing the yes side don't care about the democratic process

    Thats very odd. A few weeks ago you claimed you supported a yes that you were flying off to Amsterdam.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #45
    Grab All Association
    Registered Users Posts: 3,918 ✭✭✭Grab All Association


    Optimalprimerib wrote: »
    With this referendum is there a vibe of alot of straight people jumping on the yes band wagon just so they can be seen as liberal and modern when really they don't give a ****?

    In 2011 a former best friend of mine was dumped by her boyfriend for being a bitch (and I was too much in love with her to notice).

    He was bisexual and started seeing a guy a couple of months later.

    Bitter and jealous she sent them a lot of homophobic abuse over Facebook and through text messages.

    Last week I seen her Facebook profile pic has Yes to equality written in the bottom left corner :D


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    #46
    gk5000
    Registered Users Posts: 847 ✭✭✭gk5000


    L1011 wrote: »
    You are aware the referendum has absolutely nothing to do with parenting or children, right?
    Yep, married people never have children. How can we all be so stupid to think that constitution protection of the family includes children, and that changing the family section of the constitution shall also affect children?


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    #47
    gk5000
    Registered Users Posts: 847 ✭✭✭gk5000


    Fleawuss wrote: »
    If this amendment is lost then the assault on what has been won will begin in earnest.
    So win at any costs - right?

    Do any of the LGBT community realise the damage you are doing with the nature of this campaign, tactics etc. and the potential backlash later.

    Have you ever heard of a pyrrhic victory?


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    #48
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,795 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    bjork wrote: »
    Every one has equal rights to marry a person of the opposite sex.
    If you don't wish to access that right, that is your option.
    I'm not sure that it's unequal

    lol just lol

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #49
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,618 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    gk5000 wrote: »
    Yep, married people never have children. How can we all be so stupid to think that constitution protection of the family includes children, and that changing the family section of the constitution shall also affect children?

    There is no requirement, assumption or "right" to children for a married couple in the constitution. Throwing it in as a whataboutery argument shows a level of deviousness that really shouldn't be in play here.

    The referendum has nothing to do with children and you've done nothing to even try refute that there.


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    #50
    Mickeroo
    Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,135 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    gk5000 wrote: »
    Yep, married people never have children. How can we all be so stupid to think that constitution protection of the family includes children, and that changing the family section of the constitution shall also affect children?

    All the people who can have children before the referendum will still be able to have them afterwards regardless of the outcome. It's really that simple.


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    #51
    gk5000
    Registered Users Posts: 847 ✭✭✭gk5000


    L1011 wrote: »
    There is no requirement, assumption or "right" to children for a married couple in the constitution. Throwing it in as a whataboutery argument shows a level of deviousness that really shouldn't be in play here.

    The referendum has nothing to do with children and you've done nothing to even try refute that there.
    Its not about the right to have children.
    Is about that many or most married people have children so to ignore them is ridiculous and is doing your cause no favours.


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    #52
    NewCorkLad
    Registered Users Posts: 957 ✭✭✭NewCorkLad


    gk5000 wrote: »
    Its not about the right to have children.
    Is about that many or most married people have children so to ignore them is ridiculous and is doing your cause no favours.

    And how will they be affected by this?


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    #53
    Mickeroo
    Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,135 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    gk5000 wrote: »
    Its not about the right to have children.
    Is about that many or most married people have children so to ignore them is ridiculous and is doing your cause no favours.

    What will happen to these children if the referendum passes exactly that you're so worried about?


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    #54
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,618 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    gk5000 wrote: »
    Its not about the right to have children.
    Is about that many or most married people have children so to ignore them is ridiculous and is doing your cause no favours.

    What is their relevance to the debate?

    No rights, responsibilities, expectations or legal protections relating to children are being changed.

    Dragging irrelevant but emotive things in to a debate doesn't help your argument at all.


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    #55
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    gk5000 wrote: »
    Its not about the right to have children.
    Is about that many or most married people have children so to ignore them is ridiculous and is doing your cause no favours.

    And many same sex couples are able to have children through adoption or surrogacy as was put to the people in the Children's Referendum in 2012. If the yes vote passes on Friday it will allow these couples to be recognised as a family. A No Vote will allow same sex couples to adopt and have children but they will not have constitutional protection. Explain to me how that is in any way beneficial to the child.


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    #56
    SILVAMAN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 730 ✭✭✭SILVAMAN


    Has it occurred to anyone the actual planning that gay couples have to do to actually have a child? Compared to the number of heterosexual couples who's kid is conceived after a drunken tryst, without any thought for the future.
    ANd then there's the sisue of a gay kid being raised by its heterosexual parents...where's the role model?


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    #57
    J_E
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,734 ✭✭✭J_E


    gk5000 wrote: »
    Its not about the right to have children.
    Is about that many or most married people have children so to ignore them is ridiculous and is doing your cause no favours.

    The core of the No argument is presumptive that all gay couples want kids. I would wager that significantly less of them do. In the case they do - and in the case where the No argument speaks about children; couples can and will be able to continue to parent kids regardless of a Yes or No vote, because this is something covered by a different bill. This is asking if people are allowed to share the legal and social institution of civil marriage, why is this such a struggle to ask for? At least 3 gay/lesbian couples I can think of off the top of my head don't want kids, but they do want to be married, and they've been together 10-15 years+ wanting this. I find it incredulous that Ronan Mullen, a man who is so keen to mention the rights of children, was silent during child abuse scandals that he likely knew about, for the sake of his church. Absolutely fed up of hearing 'a mothers and fathers love is irreplacable', it's nothing but ignorance and deliberate fear-mongering.


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    #58
    LookingFor
    Registered Users Posts: 2,682 ✭✭✭LookingFor


    A part of me wonders if part of the psychology is that one's ego and identity has become so wrapped up in the idea of the 'marginalised other' that the idea of inclusion and others in his peer group 'moving on' to another mainstream way of living - to, gasp, marriage - kind of threatens him, and any idea he might have had that at least we were somehow all bound together in this 'otherness' forever.

    It is a very selfish viewpoint, but I think it's one that could be explained from an emotional level.


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    #59
    LookingFor
    Registered Users Posts: 2,682 ✭✭✭LookingFor


    gk5000 wrote: »
    Its not about the right to have children.
    Is about that many or most married people have children so to ignore them is ridiculous and is doing your cause no favours.

    It's not ignoring people who have children. It's simply saying that not having children, or not being able to have children, is not a bar on heterosexual couples marrying, therefore using it as a barrier for gay people is unfair.


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    #60
    wonderfulname
    Registered Users Posts: 3,943 ✭✭✭wonderfulname


    Celly Smunt wrote: »
    As a person who has a lot of gay friends though is a bit community shy im just wondering whether anybody here has come accross this sort of leaning among the gay community?

    Above is the question posed in the OP, please stick to the topic. There are plenty of debate threads elsewhere if you want to get into it, and numerous other threads on various facets of the referendum here.


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    #61
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    gk5000 wrote: »
    Its not about the right to have children.
    Is about that many or most married people have children so to ignore them is ridiculous and is doing your cause no favours.

    I'm one of those straight people who is married with children. You don't speak for me. I had my kid before marriage and faced awful comments from people who are the very ones talking about the "natural family"..they make me sick, they were the very ones who rained abuse on me for having a baby outside wedlock, they have some nerve trying to turn that around now.


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