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[2011-2012] What really happened to Madeleine McCann?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 186 ✭✭Mistyeyes321


    lugha wrote: »
    Yes, this "rethinking in light of new knowledge" does happen and I think is what happened here. And my suggestion is, not that she misheard (I think she probably heard correctly alright) but that she misinterpreted what she did hear.

    But this is not the problem I have with this as a piece of evidence. The really big problem is this.


    Neither do I, nor I have anyone offer a convincing explanation. And for me, that puts a major question mark over the relevance of this testimony.

    It potentially might have been a very useful facet of information in unveiling the truth of what happened to Madeline (it offers a possible, and very good, reason why the McCanns would not want Madeleine’s body to be found). Unfortunately it throws up a difficult question, which nobody can satisfactorily answer (Why would child abusers candidly discuss their deviances?) and until someone can, the Gasper evidence is seriously undermined.

    This is not the only example in this case where a possible explanation of what might have happened is undermined by a question which needs to be answered but nobody satisfactorily can.

    For example, there was at one stage a suggestion that an intruder came in through the window. The problem with that suggestion is of course that it was widely agreed that it would be almost impossible for an intruder to so do without leaving any evidence. So the difficult question here is why would an intruder take the extraordinary trouble to ensure that they left no evidence of coming through the window?

    I don’t have a good answer. I have heard no one else offer a good (or even a bad!) answer. Therefore, like most people, I more or less dismiss this particular scenario.

    Presumably you would be less that impressed with someone who argued that they believed that an intruder DID some through the window but “didn’t have a clue” as to why they were able to (and took the trouble to) avoid leaving evidence?

    Surely, in the interests of fairness you should have the same standards for evidence that is in the McCanns favour as you do for evidence that is against them?

    I don't know as much as most on this thread regarding the files tbh, I have read some of the statement's though,!
    I don't know how someone could come through that window without leaving any evidence in anyway, Isit possible to climb through a window pick a child up in your arm's & climb back out again without leaving anything at all?:confused:
    I personally don't think that's possible, Do you? wasn't the Lichen untouched?, How would someone even be able to carry a child in their arms & climb through a window at the sametime? Doesn't make any sense at all to me!
    If anyone did abduct that child they didn't come through any window imho, They walked through the open door & back out again,!
    I don't know why Mr Mccann & Mr Payne would openly discuss their Deviance's infront of a witness.! Maybe they thought "No one will believe her anyway"? or maybe they we're so comfortable in their own little world's getting off on their little warped chat they forgot she was even sat between them?? Bit hard to belieive but who knows?!

    Davoxx, Makes a far better argument of this than I could tbh, I find myself agreeing with this poster & wonder why I never thought of it first?!

    Timeline is the answer to alot of this Mystery I believe & also this case has been overthought by many many ppl. If this ever gets solved, I think we will all find it was far simpler than is being made out by all of us... The Mccann's have had far to much control in this case imo...Why is that do you think? The crime scene was trampled by the time the PJ got a chance to lock it down...I always think thats a little starnge considering both their backgrounds being Doctors! Yes they we're probably in shock etc & we all react different in different situations, I just think having the intelligence they both have...It never crossed their minds how important that crime scene was, & whats even more strange to me is, Neither did their intelligent friends!
    Curiouser and Curiouser!
    Of course none of the above mean A jot without evidence..Which bring's me to a point that has been going around my head, If the PJ was intending on setting the Mccanns up like kippers, like some believe to be true, Then surely they would have made a far better job of nailing the mccanns than they have done!
    Sorry I can't highlight your comments into my post but I really don't know how to do that...


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    davoxx wrote: »
    to gloat. a lot of criminals will talk about what they've done (and until then gotten away with) in roundabout ways in front of people who would be against them, even to the police.
    they often feel that since they have gotten away with it, that they are far superior than the authorities.
    because they can carefully phrase comments so that while everyone may get the same subtext, they can feign innocence if challenged on it.

    the other possibility is that they are idiots, and idiots talk to much :)
    Ok but the essential point I was making was that if there is a serious implausibility with a component of an explanation, then it is not reasonably to simply say “I can‘t explain that difficulty” and just ignore it.

    If a prosecutor has a witness who says a defendant was involved in some crime then he cannot simply say “I can’t explain why several other independent witnesses can provide him with an alibi” and carryon as if the value of the testimony of his witness is unaffected.

    You at least provide some solution for the difficulty (though IMO, while possible, it is a bit of a stretch). Many who insist on presenting this as evidence simply avoid it.
    How would someone even be able to carry a child in their arms & climb through a window at the sametime? Doesn't make any sense at all to me!
    Nor to me. This is my point. There is a difficulty with this explanation, as you outline. And because no one has offered a plausible way to deal with this difficulty I don’t give much credence to this story. I don’t simply ignore the difficulty!
    The crime scene was trampled by the time the PJ got a chance to lock it down...I always think thats a little starnge considering both their backgrounds being Doctors!

    Even if you do think it is strange, why do you think such strangeness is indicative that they might be involved? How would it have been in their interests to allow the scene to be trampled upon, thus destroying evidence ….. evidence that did not nor could not exist because there was no intruder and therefore no evidence????

    IMO it would have been far more suspicious if they DID have the presence of mind to preserve a crime seen, and had they done so, I think some would be making exactly that point!

    Their failure to preserve the scene does not particularly point to them being involved. It does not point to them being not involved. The most you can say about it is that it is strange, though I don’t think it at all strange.

    What is strange is the alarmingly large number of people who think this irrelevant detail amounts to evidence against them!


  • Registered Users Posts: 186 ✭✭Mistyeyes321


    lugha wrote: »
    Ok but the essential point I was making was that if there is a serious implausibility with a component of an explanation, then it is not reasonably to simply say “I can‘t explain that difficulty” and just ignore it.

    If a prosecutor has a witness who says a defendant was involved in some crime then he cannot simply say “I can’t explain why several other independent witnesses can provide him with an alibi” and carryon as if the value of the testimony of his witness is unaffected.

    You at least provide some solution for the difficulty (though IMO, while possible, it is a bit of a stretch). Many who insist on presenting this as evidence simply avoid it.

    Nor to me. This is my point. There is a difficulty with this explanation, as you outline. And because no one has offered a plausible way to deal with this difficulty I don’t give much credence to this story. I don’t simply ignore the difficulty!



    Even if you do think it is strange, why do you think such strangeness is indicative that they might be involved? How would it have been in their interests to allow the scene to be trampled upon, thus destroying evidence ….. evidence that did not nor could not exist because there was no intruder and therefore no evidence????

    IMO it would have been far more suspicious if they DID have the presence of mind to preserve a crime seen, and had they done so, I think some would be making exactly that point!

    Their failure to preserve the scene does not particularly point to them being involved. It does not point to them being not involved. The most you can say about it is that it is strange, though I don’t think it at all strange.

    What is strange is the alarmingly large number of people who think this irrelevant detail amounts to evidence against them!

    By allowing the crime scene to be contaminated "if they we're involved with this childs disappearance" Then the police wouldn't be able to prove nor disprove whether an abduction took place or not, Because all the eveidence that was left had been contaminated, Similar situation we find ourselves in now!, There is no evidence that the Mccann's or any of their friends was or wasn't involed with this childs disappearance...Even the dog evidence proves nothing, Hence the reason the Mccann's have returned to a normal life along with their friends....That child didn't fly away into thin air someone somewhere know's what happened to this child & I hope oneday she is found, Highly unlikely but you just never know!..:)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 86 ✭✭tuom


    What happened to Madeline McCann was the fault of her parents , whether it was an abduction or something more sinister.
    I have read some of the case files from Portugal and the one thing that really surprises me is the little amount of time the McCanns actually spent with their children !.
    They were in the creche after breakfast until lunchtime, then after lunch back to the creche again, then dinner , a little play time then bedtime and they were then left alone for the night !
    Checking every half hour is totally irresponsible, as we all know a lot can happen in half an hour.

    If the child was abducted I believe that thier behaviour contributed to this if the strict routine they mentioned in their statements is to believed.

    Kate mentions that she ensured that all medicines and sharp objects were put away , just in case they woke up.

    The picture painted of the happy holiday is also something I do not believe, with three small kids , a strange place , tiredness and the heat leads to meltdowns. As a Mother of three and having been on sun holidays with small children I know what I am talking about and I have never left them alone at night. ! These resorts are child friendly and you can keep the children with you.
    I can still not comprehend that all those children were left alone and it strikes me that the McCanns acted in a selfish manner.
    If you go on holidays and you do not want to be bothered by children while you dine and drink , then do not take them with you or at least bring a babysitter along with you.
    You cannot combine a 18 to 30 holiday with a family holiday.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,293 ✭✭✭Fuzzy Clam


    As a matter of interest, has the possibility that Madeline may have left the apartment of her own accord and was abducted at a later stage elsewhere? I may have missed it but i don't recall that possibility being suggested.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 186 ✭✭Mistyeyes321


    Fuzzy Clam wrote: »
    As a matter of interest, has the possibility that Madeline may have left the apartment of her own accord and was abducted at a later stage elsewhere? I may have missed it but i don't recall that possibility being suggested.

    If I remember correctly this has been put forward by another poster & i'm not 100% on this but I seem to recall it being discussed reagarding the Iron Gates Madeline would have had to open & whether she would have been able to open them..or not, But I think any avenue is worth persuing, Because none of us know,!

    Tuom, couldn't agree more:)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 86 ✭✭tuom


    It is good news that this case is going to be reopened..... having read a lot of the case files it should never have stopped, however with fresh eyes perhaps there will be the proper outcome....


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,977 ✭✭✭✭Giblet


    What I've heard from the Portuguese investigation (from real life Portuguese people!) is the following. The dogs the smell blood between the chair and the window, and it is believed that the child, while drowsy, was there listening to the noise outside from the parents and their friends and possible fell between the gap and was fatally injured. The car they had rented was found to have DNA possibly belonging to Madeleine in the boot under the lining. There was also an accusation that the Chief of Police was let go after a meeting between PM Socrates and Gordon Brown, despite the fact that it was pinned on some transgressions involving the Chief. The case was then archived following this (which is unusual). The most crucial part here is the car, too coincidental and seems to be a lot of hand waving when it was brought up.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 86 ✭✭tuom


    There is something about this case that has from the very start given me a gut feeling , I am not a nutcase or a Mc Cann hater but I cannot pinpoint what is so wrong in this case.
    Ok they left the kids alone that is a big no no but nothing seems to fit ! how has this become so big , why is it that it is being investigated the way the McCanns want it ? I am probably giving it too much time but I would be interested in getting some more up to date opinions on this .... TY


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭jackiebaron


    tuom wrote: »
    What happened to Madeline McCann was the fault of her parents , whether it was an abduction or something more sinister.
    I have read some of the case files from Portugal and the one thing that really surprises me is the little amount of time the McCanns actually spent with their children !.
    They were in the creche after breakfast until lunchtime, then after lunch back to the creche again, then dinner , a little play time then bedtime and they were then left alone for the night !
    Checking every half hour is totally irresponsible, as we all know a lot can happen in half an hour.

    If the child was abducted I believe that thier behaviour contributed to this if the strict routine they mentioned in their statements is to believed.

    Kate mentions that she ensured that all medicines and sharp objects were put away , just in case they woke up.

    The picture painted of the happy holiday is also something I do not believe, with three small kids , a strange place , tiredness and the heat leads to meltdowns. As a Mother of three and having been on sun holidays with small children I know what I am talking about and I have never left them alone at night. ! These resorts are child friendly and you can keep the children with you.
    I can still not comprehend that all those children were left alone and it strikes me that the McCanns acted in a selfish manner.
    If you go on holidays and you do not want to be bothered by children while you dine and drink , then do not take them with you or at least bring a babysitter along with you.
    You cannot combine a 18 to 30 holiday with a family holiday.

    And you know something, if a couple went on holiday and did not bring their children and one of those kids was abducted at home or drank bleach or cut himself badly with something you'd be barfing out the same "blame the parents" claptrap accusing them of swanning off on a jolly when they should have been minding their kids or some such crap.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,876 ✭✭✭deelite


    tuom wrote: »
    There is something about this case that has from the very start given me a gut feeling , I am not a nutcase or a Mc Cann hater but I cannot pinpoint what is so wrong in this case.
    Ok they left the kids alone that is a big no no but nothing seems to fit ! how has this become so big , why is it that it is being investigated the way the McCanns want it ? I am probably giving it too much time but I would be interested in getting some more up to date opinions on this .... TY

    I distinctly remember watching GMTV and a Scottish lady (Gerrys sister) being on the phone talking about her niece who was missing - that was the first time I heard of the case. I never liked the way Gerry handled himself and Kate has my full sympathy I get this Gut feeling that Kate is under Gerry's control. I think he pulls all the strings. I just wonder is there any CCTV footage at all from their holiday.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 86 ✭✭tuom


    deelite wrote: »
    I distinctly remember watching GMTV and a Scottish lady (Gerrys sister) being on the phone talking about her niece who was missing - that was the first time I heard of the case. I never liked the way Gerry handled himself and Kate has my full sympathy I get this Gut feeling that Kate is under Gerry's control. I think he pulls all the strings. I just wonder is there any CCTV footage at all from their holiday.

    There is some footage of the MC and their friends at the Tapas bar and a lot of the information are online see MCCann Case Files , it is a lot of reading but very intersting also a lot of stuff on utube,


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,193 ✭✭✭[Jackass]


    For my money, this is a pretty open and shut case.

    A Paedophile goes to a family resort to look at kids on the beach and basically be sub-human scum, and either did or did not go with the intention of abducting a child, I think it was a tourist, and I think he (I think it was a man) saw an oppertunity and acted upon it. I don't know if it was pre-planned or not, but I think the child was taken from the home when it became clear that it had got to a certain stage, and I think the person was staying local, probably in the same village / area, and I reckon she was killed and disposed of within 24 hours of her going missing, and she's burried in the vast surrounding countryside somewhere and will be found some time in the next 20 years I reckon, probably by coincidence.

    Terribly sad, but I think it all happened and ended over the space of a few hours.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,193 ✭✭✭[Jackass]


    Also, I wouldn't rule out the parents being the killers as a completely seperate theroy to the above, but I think it is far far less likely, and there's no motive and it would have been very difficult to make her disappear and stay hidden, i.e. to hide a body so well in such a short space of time and not leave any clues linking you to it and not make any mistakes trying to cover it it. It's possible, but I think it's far more likely that it was a paedo.


  • Registered Users Posts: 186 ✭✭Mistyeyes321


    Just seen ths link, Can anyone here understand what the connection is ?!
    http://www.anorak.co.uk/320148/madeleine-mccann/madeleine-mccann-the-etan-patz-connection.html/


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 892 ✭✭✭Motorist


    I see there was a photo fit on the news of what this poor child would look like now.

    Sadly, this is probably more accurate.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,939 ✭✭✭goat2


    i am delighted for the family and just hope that who ever has her, will give her back, please god this will happen asap


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 892 ✭✭✭Motorist


    goat2 wrote: »
    i am delighted for the family and just hope that who ever has her, will give her back, please god this will happen asap

    You do realise that she is almost certainly dead.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    I think that its very likely that the parents did it.
    I read a theory a while back complete with pictures about a gypsy couple. The photos showed them performing sexual acts on a sofa when a child was in the room. The child was white and looked very similar to Madeline. There was more to the story but can't remember it now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,939 ✭✭✭goat2


    Motorist wrote: »
    You do realise that she is almost certainly dead.
    i dont think she is dead, i do think that some couple who could not have a child of their own had her taken for them, also at her age it would be easy to brainwash and forget what happened in time.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 124 ✭✭Tom Cruise


    She would be old enough to ask for her parents back though.
    And how will she go to a school.You can get a baby from certain places in the world for very little money.Why rob 1 and face jail if caught.I think we all know what happened her.
    I would never leave kids in a apartment on holidays while i get drunk.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,876 ✭✭✭deelite


    Tom Cruise wrote: »
    She would be old enough to ask for her parents back though.
    And how will she go to a school.You can get a baby from certain places in the world for very little money.Why rob 1 and face jail if caught.I think we all know what happened her.
    I would never leave kids in a apartment on holidays while i get drunk.

    That's the other thing I find strange about this case if it was a couple who wanted a child why did they not take one of the twins or both of them. On the other hand somebody could have seen a beautiful little girl on holidays with her parents, who seemed to spend more time in the creche or on her own in the apartment rather than with her mum and dad. Maybe they thought they were going to give her a more loving environment in their eyes.

    And finally do you know what really intrigues me why has no psychics solved the case the only mention I ever heard was years ago when Gerry Ryan had Derek Anacord?? on his show and when Gerry asked him about the case all he said was " there was 2 nasty people involved"


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,939 ✭✭✭goat2


    deelite wrote: »
    That's the other thing I find strange about this case if it was a couple who wanted a child why did they not take one of the twins or both of them. On the other hand somebody could have seen a beautiful little girl on holidays with her parents, who seemed to spend more time in the creche or on her own in the apartment rather than with her mum and dad. Maybe they thought they were going to give her a more loving environment in their eyes.

    And finally do you know what really intrigues me why has no psychics solved the case the only mention I ever heard was years ago when Gerry Ryan had Derek Anacord?? on his show and when Gerry asked him about the case all he said was " there was 2 nasty people involved"
    i would say there are far more accurate physics out there, i have wondered also why they did not go to a proven physic, there is a programme on sky some nights it is called physic detective, they help police to piece together evidence in cases, and the police are surprsed by how accurate the physcics are, down to the point of pinpointing on maps the whereabouts of people dead and alive, it would be brilliant if it were tried, nothing to lose trying anyway


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    I just keep coming back to the restaurant scenario. Across the holiday complex on the far side of the swimming pool, two babies & a toddler on their own in a room with an unlocked window out of view (I think)? Phew, thinking baout it makes me ask why oh why would you leave the young children in the room on their own??? So maybe everybody did that in that complex, maybe it was the norm? (I don't know) but as a father of little ones I don't think I would leave them alone in a room while on Holiday, but maybe if the room as within sight, and the safety record was 100% then we might . . . Actually No, I still can't imaging leaving them alone.

    Its a real mystery if ever there was, that's for sure.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,939 ✭✭✭goat2


    like you, i would never have left my children unattended for even five minuits in my home, there is not a hope i would leave them unsupervised (sleeping or not) in another country while i would step out even for a moment, but that does not take from the fact, that it was wrong for someone to take anothers child


  • Registered Users Posts: 988 ✭✭✭Ashbourne hoop


    I don't think the parents were involved in the disappearance. I don't see how they could have got away with it to be honest. My own opinion is that the child is dead, she has to be the most recognised child in the world at this stage so surely someone would have come forward at this stage. Also the parents were wrong to leave the kids by themselves and they are paying the worst price possible for that mistake.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    I'm going to be very anti-boards now and post this without reading other posts first.

    I predict...a massive "they shouldn't have left her alone" rant.....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    What stand's out to me is if someone took Maddie because they wanted a child so badly to love & nurture. Then why a nearly four year old child?!
    It would make far more sense if the Mccann's we're being watched for this reason to take the twin's who would likely forget about their own parent's very quickly! & they would also be far easier to teach a new Language etc etc etc!
    Other's think the Mccann's was being watched by a paedophile ring, Again why not take all three kids?! If they was prepared to take the risk then why not?. It's like being robbed & just taking the Copper's & leaving the silver & gold! It doesn't even bare thinking about really turn's my stomach the thought of people like these having this Child! I don't think we can ignore it though!
    Another way this child could have disappeared was by the Parent's being involed...I just can't believe it tbh maybe that's because as a Mother I just couldn't carry on without one of my babies! I know I couldn't just dump their little body as if they we're a piece of rubbish!
    The only other way would be if one of the Friend's we're involved & the Mccann's genuinly aren't involved & do believe Maddie was abducted!
    +1


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    I often wondered if she left the room herself looking for her parents and ended up falling into the sea or a drain or something?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,195 ✭✭✭maximoose


    Also the parents were wrong to leave the kids by themselves and they are paying the worst price possible for that mistake.

    Are they really though? They looked pretty cosy in their box at Wembley the other day watching the football when if they weren't upper class doctors they'd probably (and rightly so) be in jail for negliglence.

    Terrible thing to happen to the child, if it was an abduction (which the joint investigation by the portuguese and british police found zero evidence for) she's more than likely dead as she's far too high profile to be kept alive. There's always struck me as being much more to the case though.


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