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'90% of Americans' would approve waterboarding

  • 19-10-2007 2:28pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,707 ✭✭✭✭


    found this from a link on in the sambo thread

    MSNBC host Joe Scarborough says that the controversial interrogation tactic known as waterboarding -- a method of simulated drowning used by interrogators to extract information from subjects -- is a potentially effective practice likely to be overwhelmingly supported by Americans when conducted under the right conditions.

    ie not on americians

    "A lot of people say torture doesn't work, torture doesn't work. And I'm not here saying that we need to torture. I'm just saying, for the record it is a matter of historical record, that when we water boarded Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, he started talking, and he kept talking."

    although all he said was stop drowning me

    Asked later if he thought waterboarding qualified as torture, Scarborough wasn't so sure

    ahem <cough>
    "You know, that's the debate. Is waterboarding torture?"


    so is it ??
    and is it acceptable

    quote taken from

    http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Scarborough_90_of_Americans_would_approve_1019.html

    is waterboarding torture and is it acceptable 90 votes

    yes it's torture but its acceptable
    0% 0 votes
    not torture so why not use it to get the truth
    14% 13 votes
    its torture how could you you beast
    2% 2 votes
    not torture but not acceptable
    81% 73 votes
    some sorta atari jaguar reference that i don't understand
    2% 2 votes


«13

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    There using KSM as an example of torture working? Well that pretty much says it all right there.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭humbert


    Well then I think the only fair thing to do is waterboard 90% of Americans.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,707 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    humbert wrote: »
    Well then I think the only fair thing to do is waterboard 90% of Americans.


    i agree
    now explain the atari jaguar thing or i'll make you surf
    #


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,483 ✭✭✭✭daveirl


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,478 ✭✭✭magick


    so what? they should go even further. Scumbag terrorists cut peoples heads off and make videos about it !


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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    magick wrote: »
    so what? they should go even further. Scumbag terrorists cut peoples heads off and make videos about it !

    I am sure everyone the US kidnaps is a terrorist. There intel is just that good, kinda like there intel about WMD's in Iraq. Which I am sure they will find any day now.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 336 ✭✭geuro


    so what? they should go even further. Scumbag terrorists cut peoples heads off and make videos about it !

    Yeah thats a great suggestion magick - lets copy the terrorists, the more extreme they become the more extreme we will behave. Good work. You're a tactical visionary.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 88,978 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    I bet most americans think its something else, involving Hawaii and hoola hoops.

    Mike.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,950 ✭✭✭✭Kintarō Hattori


    Wow- things really have gone downhill since George took over. I really do fear for the direction that America is taking. I'd have thought that in the new Millennia we'd be maturing and improving as human beings but that doesn't seem to be the case. We just seem to be heading more and more down a rocky slope.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,790 ✭✭✭cornbb


    rbd wrote: »
    i agree
    now explain the atari jaguar thing or i'll make you surf
    #

    Here's the explanation: http://wiki.boards.ie/wiki/Atari_Jaguar


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,707 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    cornbb wrote: »

    thank you very many

    i likes the gathering cards are they used or is it confined to some rpg areas


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,284 ✭✭✭pwd


    I believe the argument that torture doesn't work because the subject will just say whatever the torturer wants to get them to stop, rather than the actual truth.

    Psychological domination is more likely to be effective - ie: traditional techniques used by lawyers and interrogators.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    pwd wrote: »
    I believe the argument that torture doesn't work because the subject will just say whatever the torturer wants to get them to stop, rather than the actual truth.

    Psychological domination is more likely to be effective - ie: traditional techniques used by lawyers and interrogators.

    Honestly I think people who support torture and who should know that it doesn't work most of the time, just want there pound of flesh and to make an example out of those being tortured. A sort of don't F*** with us kinda thing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 81,129 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    I honestly think Jack Nicholson put it best:
    Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Whose gonna do it? You? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for [the dead], and you curse the marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That [their] death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.

    the Opposing Force in the present case is a far worse evil. They have the conviction to do these unspeakable things; if we maintain the notion of asking them nicely we will get nowhere and more people will die.

    If you had the technique to extract critical information that related to another attack, would you really sit and offer them a cigarette and ASK them?

    Get into the shoes of an interrogator: a good interrogator uses these methods for the extraction of information for what he feels is right.
    a BAD interrogator destroys the suspect, pisses on his qu'ran (spelling?) and makes him eat his own feces - such methods do nothing for the extraction of information: they are for kicks and giggles and the satisfaction of the captor.


    Im for the technique if they can maintain their impartiality.

    To put it into an (admittably ignorant) context: imagine its 30 years ago or so, and you have a captured IRA terrorist and he potentially has information about a planned attack where this is a high potential for civilian death. The captive gloats that the attack will be happening by tomorrow morning and theres nothing you can do to stop it. How would you go about extracting the information?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,707 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    Overheal wrote: »
    I honestly think Jack Nicholson put it best:



    the Opposing Force in the present case is a far worse evil. They have the conviction to do these unspeakable things; if we maintain the notion of asking them nicely we will get nowhere and more people will die.

    If you had the technique to extract critical information that related to another attack, would you really sit and offer them a cigarette and ASK them?

    Get into the shoes of an interrogator: a good interrogator uses these methods for the extraction of information for what he feels is right.
    a BAD interrogator destroys the suspect, pisses on his qu'ran (spelling?) and makes him eat his own feces - such methods do nothing for the extraction of information: they are for kicks and giggles and the satisfaction of the captor.


    Im for the technique if they can maintain their impartiality.

    how about at tribunals
    who's for waterboarding bertie


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭humbert


    rbd wrote: »
    how about at tribunals
    who's for waterboarding bertie

    /Hammers big nail into plank of wood and shoves way to top of line :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,057 ✭✭✭Wacker


    I honestly believe that the only way to get a lasting result in the Middle East is for the lines between the 'good guys' and the 'bad guys' being clearly drawn, Unless the US are prepared to carpet-bomb their enemies out of existence (which they are not), then they'll have to be able to rely on the co-operation of the public in places suc as Iraq. Waterboarding and similair practices erode this, and will be detrimental in the long term.

    My 2 cents. But what do I know? I've never served in a hostile environment.


  • Registered Users Posts: 81,129 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Wacker wrote: »
    I honestly believe that the only way to get a lasting result in the Middle East is for the lines between the 'good guys' and the 'bad guys' being clearly drawn, Unless the US are prepared to carpet-bomb their enemies out of existence (which they are not), then they'll have to be able to rely on the co-operation of the public in places suc as Iraq. Waterboarding and similair practices erode this, and will be detrimental in the long term.

    My 2 cents. But what do I know? I've never served in a hostile environment.

    serves little good :( because 'they' (oh yes, I used THAT word) see themselves as the Good as much as 'we' see ourselves as good. The conflict is pure philosophical - it will not end in our lifetime.

    Also: I encourage you to look up "Farfur" on google/wiki and see what you discover.

    But yea, it happens on both sides - shows like Farfur teach Muslim children how to operate AK-47s, to kill heretics (americans, etc) and the purity of allah.

    Then in the USA camp you have some really sickening **** going on too: Christian camps pretty much doing the same thing. I **** you not - take a dig on youtube; you'll find it - kids being taught that anybody that doesnt beleive in Jesus is evil, etc.

    And people wonder why I'm Agnostic :mad:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,707 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    Wacker wrote: »
    I honestly believe that the only way to get a lasting result in the Middle East is for the lines between the 'good guys' and the 'bad guys' being clearly drawn,

    by americian spindoctors#




    Unless the US are prepared to carpet-bomb their enemies out of existence (which they are not), then they'll have to be able to rely on the co-operation of the public in places suc as Iraq. Waterboarding and similair practices erode this, and will be detrimental in the long term.

    so you think waterboarding is a bad idea cos its hard to spin and will affect the propaganda machine
    My 2 cents. But what do I know? I've never served in a hostile environment.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5 rubie


    Definition of Terrorism according to wikipedia - Terrorism is violence or other harmful acts committed (or threatened) against civilians for political or other ideological goals.

    It depends where you draw the line.

    Bush and his government could be said to be terrorists since they commit violence and other harmful acts against civilians (like when their bombs drop in the wrong place, or when they interrogate/torture people they assume (wrongly) to be terrorists).


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  • Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    magick wrote: »
    so what? they should go even further. Scumbag terrorists cut peoples heads off and make videos about it !

    that's the difference between terrorists and law enforement. law enforcement obeys the law, otherwise they're no longer law enforcement, they're terrorists, in that they get their way by causing terror in others


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,398 ✭✭✭✭r3nu4l


    I seem to recall torture being used and working perfectly to get confessions from the Guildford 4 and Birmingham 6!

    That worked a treat didn't it! :rolleyes:

    When most people are in fear for their lives and really believe they are about to die they will say almost anything to save their lives, whether that be true or not.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Oh and the US doesn't just do water boarding. When they need to do more extreme stuff they outsource there torture to place like Egypt/Syria, where the security forces there torture with impunity and in the most repugnant manner possible.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,264 ✭✭✭✭Hobbes


    I clicked "not torture but not acceptable" by accident. meant the one above it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,264 ✭✭✭✭Hobbes


    magick wrote: »
    Scumbag terrorists cut peoples heads off and make videos about it !

    So your willing to be tortured then?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭Poccington


    It's all down to the situation IMO. Throughout the whole topic nobody has acknowledged the comment below.
    Overheal wrote: »

    To put it into an (admittably ignorant) context: imagine its 30 years ago or so, and you have a captured IRA terrorist and he potentially has information about a planned attack where this is a high potential for civilian death. The captive gloats that the attack will be happening by tomorrow morning and theres nothing you can do to stop it. How would you go about extracting the information?

    You can all sit there and say "Oh it's very wrong" all you like, but what happens when you're put in a situation like the one above? Do you just sit there for the day and ask him nicely to tell you........ Or do you try every possible means you have to try get the information? It may not get you the info, but at least you tried every possible avenue to get the information. Instead of just sitting there and asking him a few times then once the bomb goes off saying "Oh well, I asked him but he wouldn't tell me"


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭Poccington


    rubie wrote: »

    Bush and his government could be said to be terrorists since they commit violence and other harmful acts against civilians (like when their bombs drop in the wrong place, or when they interrogate/torture people they assume (wrongly) to be terrorists).

    Well if that's the case...... The Allied Forces in WW2 can be easily classed as terrorists.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,165 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    daveirl wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    A point which applies to both sides of the argument. We know that waterboarding is torture, unacceptable, inhuman and so on... because we read it.

    On the other hand, it seems to be not entirely ineffective... at least, that's what we read.

    Chances are that the only people qualified to answer the question are psychologists and interrogators.

    NTM


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭humbert


    A point which applies to both sides of the argument. We know that waterboarding is torture, unacceptable, inhuman and so on... because we read it.

    On the other hand, it seems to be not entirely ineffective... at least, that's what we read.

    Chances are that the only people qualified to answer the question are psychologists and interrogators.

    NTM

    Em, NO. It is our opinion that waterboarding is torture because the idea of holding someone's head under water until they believe they are going to die is unethical and inhumane.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭Poccington


    humbert wrote: »
    Em, NO. It is our opinion that waterboarding is torture because the idea of holding someone's head under water until they believe they are going to die is unethical and inhumane.

    Em, NO. It is your opinion that waterboarding is torture.


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