Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

westtip · 16-03-2011 4:41pm

wild handlin wrote: »

Tuam-Galway on the other hand I can see it being viable; .

Ok so how many people actually commute into Galway city centre from Tuam
How many work shift patterns, in retail, or in the hospital do these people have which will require an extensive timetable to be suitable for commuting. How many Galway Tuam commuters work in out of town retail parks or industrial IT parks that will not be served by the train service. Tuam is a small town of 3,000 people plus another 4000 in the nearby environs. Compare this for example to Ennis to compare the potential ot Tuam/Galway versus Ennis/Limerick, Ennis has a population of nearly 25,000.

The demographics just don't add up.

It is not a national nor regional priority if it happens in the current fiscal climate or if IE can invent a real business case in todays scenario I will be baffled. A good bus service, bus lanes and high level frequency will provide an excellent commuter service for Tuam/Galway - the railway re-opening is pure fantasy.

If I am wrong give me the numbers to show it is justified, because at the moment I just can't see them.

wild handlin · 16-03-2011 4:58pm

DowlingM; I agree about the bewildering slow speed of the Nenagh branch, despite the recent track up-grade. Similarly the Limerick Junction-Waterford (despite it's renewals) is only a reletivly slow line speed compared to the 50's/60's.
What is needed is a radical shake-up of priorities within IE, where they are constantly trying to better services, journey times etc, rather than what appears to be a lack of interest on "lesser used lines".

Westtip; Have you travelled between Tuam and Galway between 07.00 and 09.00? It's nose to tail all the way to Claregalway anytime Ive been down that neck of the woods. Surely there is a market waiting to be tapped into for commuter rail? With the escalating price of fuel now over €1.50 a litre it will only be a matter of time before fuel will become so expensive that public transport will appeal to more and more of us.

corktina · 16-03-2011 5:02pm

most motorists would curl up and die before they would submit themselves to public transport.

westtip · 16-03-2011 5:08pm

wild handlin wrote: »

Westtip; Have you travelled between Tuam and Galway between 07.00 and 09.00? It's nose to tail all the way to Claregalway anytime Ive been down that neck of the woods. Surely there is a market waiting to be tapped into for commuter rail? With the escalating price of fuel now over €1.50 a litre it will only be a matter of time before fuel will become so expensive that public transport will appeal to more and more of us.

Only when trying to get to Shannon and been held up in the log jam - yes it is busy - but a heavy rail commuting service? are the numbers really there? and to make the point again how many of the people in this logjam are going into the city centre which is where the commuting service will serve. How much is through traffic to south, The Labour manifesto was busess to alleviate this kind of commuter logjam and FG said the WRC would have to have a cost Benefit analysis. The case for phase 2 - in todays climate will have to be overwhelming, otherwise it simply won't happen. Is the case OVERWHELMING? Was the case for Ennis/Athenry OVERWHELMING, the failure of phase one is going to be a weight around the neck of phase 2 which is why I now think it won't happen, certainly not in the lifetime of this Dail.

Just editing here to add the quote from Noel Dempsey - yesterdays man - but who do you think writes his speeches - senior civil servants in the DOT just in case you are wondering: And words in political speeches are written very carefully - Anyway this is what he said in May 2009 at the WOT conference - I can assure you these speeches will be put in front of the new Minister.

Iarnród Éireann is planning to conduct further studies in 2009 to ascertain more reliable costings for Phases 2 and 3. I understand that they will also be looking at usage of Phase 1 after its opening and at its effect on overall patronage of public transport in the area. , The timescales
for the delivery of Phases 2 and 3 are under review in the light of the capital allocation
available to the Department of Transport. I, like you, am looking forward to seeing the impact of Phase 1 of the corridor when it
opens. One of the top priorities of my Department is to encourage people to switch from
private cars to public transport.

The point is this - after one year of operations (at the end of this month), the figures are just not going to stack up - the failure of phase one = the end of phase 2 and 3. Leo V just won't wear it, the cabinet won't accept it, Brendan Howlin (Labour - who are focussed on buses) and the spending king will ask is it necessary? The cards are now so stacked up against phase 2 and phase 3 I wonder why WOT don't just wind up the operation.

Plus there is Corky's point - if people have a car pay tax, insurance maintenance and capital repayments on it - why would they give up the convenience, to get them out the car the service will have to be absolutely first class with a frequency to match any major city commuting service, early morning right through to late night services - this won't happen (quite rightly as the demand does not exist) - ergo the service won't be successful. This circle is not going to be broken which is why demanding the WRC north is such a forlorn hope, so why not spend the money (oh by the way we have none of that left) on improving existing rail services and providing a first class bus service from Tuam to Galway (which can serve for example Balybrit).

westtip · 22-03-2011 2:18pm

Attachment not found.

The attached file is one of the releases from the FOI request recently published in the Irish Times, I will put up the other document in another post as having some technical issues.

Open the document and scroll down to the first table which shows passenger numbers for Irish Rail Period 4 last year (this was basically April) the first four weeks of operation of the line - it shows 7,000 passenger journies. which dropped to less than 5,000 for period 5 and 6 and has remained less than 5,000 since.

Then re-read this press release from West on Track: News Release Friday April 30th 2010

Iarnród Éireann has announced that an estimated 16,000 extra journeys have been made in the first month of the new Limerick-Galway rail service.
full link here: http://www.westontrack.com/news232.htm

read the figure slowly - 16,000 in month one all extra journies.

This is why it is difficult to take on West on Track seriously as a credible organisation. The document I have attached is an internal memo dated July 21st 2010 from Irish Rail to the DOT stating in period 4 (April 2010 first month of operation) 7,000 passengers used the line. Yet a few weeks before apparently according to WOT 16,000 journies were made in the first month.

Now and this is the fly in the ointment so so speak. Apparently the figure in the Irish Rail memo does not include social welfare passengers - can we therefore conclude that over 55% of passengers in the remarkable month 1 of 16,000 passengers - 9,000 were social welfare passengers? What a remarkable success this line was from day one!

West on Track have denounced the figures issued by the FOI request as false - but they come from the train operator - is this all a conspiracy theory? West on Track seem to think so.

goingnowhere · 22-03-2011 2:58pm

Well done, you have done the country a great service by publishing this as now there is hard evidence

The numbers clearly have sought by the state as well and clearly the numbers are correct and DO include some of the free travel passes, see page 2.

WoT clearly actively misled the media and are now exposed

westtip · 22-03-2011 3:50pm

Indeed I had not noticed that, they get less and less credible - here is the other document released under the FOI

Also makes for interesting reading.

As said just thought those interested woudl like to actually see the internal memos referred to in the Irish Times Article.

WOT have been jumping up and down trying to discredit them. As they come from the DOT I think the Minister is more likely to believe his senior civil servants and the operating company - don't you?

I think WOT jumped the gun with the 16,000 users in month one - if scroll down to the end of the first document I posted up a memo of April 21st (three weeks into the line opening) does state the line is being used by 800/900per day in the first two week and then 450/500 per day in week 3- they may have been given this information and factored it up to get to the 16,000, but to try and claim after one month this was now the established pattern of behaviour was reallly very very stupid beyond belief. The figures that have now been counted and will continue to be counted by IE and reported to the Minister are clearly the ones he will take credence of.

OurLadyofKnock · 22-03-2011 3:57pm

corktina wrote: »

most motorists would curl up and die before they would submit themselves to public transport.

CORRECTION: most IRISH motorists would curl up and die before they would submit themselves to CIE public transport.

Their dislike of public transport is not entirely irrational or always a matter of personal choice.

DWCommuter · 22-03-2011 4:02pm

WRC FIGURES.jpg

Link above takes you straight to the figures.

Cookie_Monster · 22-03-2011 4:33pm

Funny how the table on page 2 does include an estimate of DSFA but the one on page 4 specifically excludes them, yet the numbers are exactly the same...

Sounds to me like Irish rail are just making it up.
I wonder did Ann get an email back querying her obvious error?

westtip · 22-03-2011 4:40pm

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Funny how the table on page 2 does include an estimate of DSFA but the one on page 4 specifically excludes them, yet the numbers are exactly the same...

Sounds to me like Irish rail are just making it up.
I wonder did Ann get an email back querying her obvious error?

CM don't think it makes much difference do you? I think the question to ask the DOT and IE is where did the figure of 16,000 come from in the WOT claim in April 2010? This was pure hallucination.

dowlingm · 22-03-2011 7:26pm

A couple of observations:

1. The figure of 16,000 on the WOT site is not a WOT figure. It is an IE Corp Communications release - i.e. the Information Minister. A longer version of that release was published here, for example.

2. The FOI shows that this information was in part requested by both Dept of Finance but also by "the Minister" - presumably Dempsey. Did Dempsey make any public statements on the WRC after opening?

3. The figure for Glounthaune-Midleton is enraging given how long this service had to wait for a go ahead. While I regard any figure coming out of IE as bogus until proven otherwise, a figure of 109K vs 31K is a staggering differential, and over a much shorter track distance so operating margin must be significantly higher.

EDIT: One document says
"59K journeys period 4-5, compared to 87K Glounthaune-Midleton"
The other says
"31K journeys period 4-9, compared to 109K Glounthaune-Midleton"

See what I mean? WTF???????

DWCommuter · 23-03-2011 1:19am

SPOOFERS?

Either way the WRC is a donkey cart.

westtip · 23-03-2011 11:00am

dowlingm wrote: »

A couple of observations:

1. The figure of 16,000 on the WOT site is not a WOT figure. It is an IE Corp Communications release - i.e. the Information Minister. A longer version of that release was published here, for example.

2. The FOI shows that this information was in part requested by both Dept of Finance but also by "the Minister" - presumably Dempsey. Did Dempsey make any public statements on the WRC after opening?

3. The figure for Glounthaune-Midleton is enraging given how long this service had to wait for a go ahead. While I regard any figure coming out of IE as bogus until proven otherwise, a figure of 109K vs 31K is a staggering differential, and over a much shorter track distance so operating margin must be significantly higher.

EDIT: One document says
"59K journeys period 4-5, compared to 87K Glounthaune-Midleton"
The other says
"31K journeys period 4-9, compared to 109K Glounthaune-Midleton"

See what I mean? WTF???????

I agree they (IE) are totally inefficient, the 16,000 is I agree not a WOT figure and they undoubtedly siezed on what they saw as very positive immediate news from IE published so soon after the line was open - but recall the skeptics amongst as said this looks suspect - my guess is the 16,000 additional journies in month one - was just that - a guess. And it was not until they actually got ticket sales figures (or tickets issued figures) coming in through the system a couple of months into operations that they realised they had to put more sobering real figures in the memo to the minister on July 21st.

There are undoubtedly confusing figures in the documents released.

Dempsey did not make any statements on the WRC after the opening - at the opening he said something along the lines that it will have to be used, just as he did at the opening of the Middleton line, and he did say on a number of occasions that use of phase 1 will have a bearing on phase 2 and 3

The simple truth is the line is not fulfilling any level of claimed latent demand, and adding two more trains a day is not going to change much. The project is so burden laden with doubt and suspicion now - it is going to be a massive uphill struggle to get phase 2 and 3 approved now the evidence of lack of use for phase 1 is in the public domain. The Corridor does not exist - why? because people are not using it in sufficient numbers, to argue the two branch lines at either end of the new line are reason to justify the corridor are totally false and the oveall rearguard action now being playe out by WOT will not stop the floodgates that have now been opened. There press release last week got no coverage in the press that mattered - the national press (I don't think so anyway) it did get coverage in the Western People but they publish what WOT tell them too, and the Western People has no influence over Leo V. Straws clutching at, are the three words that now come to mind for West on Track. Teh valiantly bought the project this far - it now has no worthy support nor any worthy argument to persuade the powers that be that it should happen - the so called business case has imploded on these numbers. West on Track can clearly deliver thousands of signatures saying the community wants this and must have it - what they can't deliver is the thousands of regular passengers the service needs to justify itself.

serfboard · 23-03-2011 8:02pm

westtip wrote: »

West on Track can clearly deliver thousands of signatures saying the community wants this and must have it - what they can't deliver is the thousands of regular passengers the service needs to justify itself.

Indeed. Thousands of people will sign a petition to say they want the service - and then not use it when it is provided.

Proves what Garret Fitzgerald said - Politics is a balance between doing what is right and what is popular. What is right is not always popular, and what is popular is not always right.

westtip · 23-03-2011 10:21pm

+1 really like that GF quote when did he say it can you post up a source I want to use it and attribute it properly. thanks

30-03-2011 3:47pm

I took Bus Eireann from Galway to Shannon Airport recently. (it continues to Limerick and Cork)

On the 10.05 bus there were about 25 passengers on board and most got off at Ennis and more at the airport.

I saw the express Limerick bus (10.00) leave and that had a similar amount of people on it.

I didn't see the train leave but it passed us at Kiltartan (before Gort) and I could only see a few people on it.

Not much to report but I did also see Eamon Ó Cuiv leaving the station while I was waiting.

DWCommuter · 05-04-2011 10:43pm

HELLO! We're back and all I have to say is that Im cautiously certain that I'm absolutely wrong in my prediction that Athenry - Tuam will happen.:D

Judgement Day · 05-04-2011 10:55pm

DWCommuter wrote: »

HELLO! We're back and all I have to say is that Im cautiously certain that I'm absolutely wrong in my prediction that Athenry - Tuam will happen.:D

As long as Claremorris/Collooney happens I'll be happy.

DWCommuter · 05-04-2011 11:23pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

As long as Claremorris/Collooney happens I'll be happy.

As a Greenway.:D

westtip · 06-04-2011 3:51pm

http://www.sustrans.org.uk/assets/files/connect2/guidelines%206.pdf

posted up before but worth a flick through to see a) What could be done with the right mindset. b) what will happen to the WRC regardless

Derek you are right at last - Athenry Tuam will not happen.

did you know it takes just over 11 and half days for a million seconds to pass - and just over 31 years for a billion seconds to pass. The bank bailout has cost 70 billion. I wonder how much are paying back every second - at 70 euro a second and not including interest it will take 31 years. This is why the Western Rail Corridor will not happen. And to think all that development and housing estates on edge of towns like tuam, claremorris was the reason why the WRC was seen as such a vital piece of infrastucture - when in fact the very reason that was claimed it was needed is the reason it won't be built. do you follow my logic....

westtip · 18-04-2011 11:18pm

Did anyone see that programme no BBC2 tonight julia bradbury great railway walks...now what did it spring to mind

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00dwflf/Railway_Walks_Discovering_Snowdonia/

unfortunately bbc i player is not available in the ROI but well worth watching this series to see what will happen to the WRC.

I drove through Tubercurry today - any idea why the old railway gates have been removed and high security fences have been put up at the crossing on the way into town at the old station - it seems they (IE) don't want peopel to enjoy walking down the track anymore - anyone in Tubber got any pics they could post up did not have my camera with me.

westtip · 20-04-2011 4:09pm

Recommendation 40: The Review Group recommends that CIE’s tours business, Rosslare port, Expressway and other bus businesses competing directly with private operators should be disposed of. Policy should seek to limit the level of public subsidy through greater efficiency and the amount of capital to be invested in further transport projects should be severely constrained. The Review Group recommends that the privatisation of all or part of Dublin Bus should be considered in due course, but only after
government has decided on a model for competition in the Dublin bus market.

Will also start this as a separate thread but re the WRC the bell tolls: see emboldenment

Judgement Day · 20-04-2011 6:25pm

westtip wrote: »

Will also start this as a separate thread but re the WRC the bell tolls: see emboldenment

I wonder how much McCarthy got for producing this load of rubbish report - one that any Leaving Cert student could have come up with. Sell everything, but no hurry and what the sell-off will fetch is only a pittance - so what's the point? :rolleyes:

foggy_lad · 20-04-2011 7:19pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

I wonder how much McCarthy got for producing this load of rubbish report - one that any Leaving Cert student could have come up with. Sell everything, but no hurry and what the sell-off will fetch is only a pittance - so what's the point? :rolleyes:

the point is that if/when they are sold off the state will not have the noose of supporting them tightening around its neck.

dowlingm · 21-04-2011 4:26am

The time to sell was at the height of the boom when anything was worth silly money, but politicians have no concept of sell high buy low because they always think the good times will never end on their watch.

westtip · 21-04-2011 9:37am

dowlingm wrote: »

The time to sell was at the height of the boom when anything was worth silly money, but politicians have no concept of sell high buy low because they always think the good times will never end on their watch.

Absolutely - Selling public assets in a garage sale because you can't pay the mortgage and have become the trailer trash of Europe is rather sad.

Selling public assest shouldn't be a kneejerk reaction - it should as it was in Thatchers time be driven by political dogma - Thatcher sold utilities because that is what she believed in - I am not defending her actions BTW but it was done out of conviction not reaction. The Trailer Trash of Europe plan to sell assets, because we are being chased by the debt collector.

Re this thread, the comments by Colm McC on the future investment in Railway infrastructure are to be expected, its all about softening the blow, Brendan howlin on morning ireland was asked does this mean the end of Metro North - he faffed around in his answer saying every project will be scrutinised and a decision will be made on is this "absolutely necessary" and the decision - if it is one of cancelling a project will be explained to people on this basis and we are sure they will understand in the current circumstances - words to that effect I paraphrase.

Anyway - The branch line from Athenry to Tuam was not mentioned, but I think gentlemen the writing is now well and truly on the wall - don't you?

dowlingm · 21-04-2011 3:52pm

You know how the developers were handing off assets to their wives? The Government should have shifted most of the semi-States into the NPRF - especially stuff like ports, airports and Eirgrid, not so much Aer Lingus or Bus Eireann.

As for McCarthy - it's as much his fault as the fella holding the jackhammer digging up the road outside your house when you're trying to shake a hangover. He was given a remit - blame the guys who wrote it out for him.

Judgement Day · 25-04-2011 8:09pm

westtip - you better watch out or this lot http://www.linkingeuropeanddonegal.org/ will spoil you plans for a Euro-Cycleway from Tralee to Derry. They seem to be making great progress - domain name purchased 12/1/11 and website live on 15/4/11 - surely the first through express can't be far behind.

corktina · 25-04-2011 8:16pm

"Please contact Rev David Crooks "

Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

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