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What have FG and Labour ever done for this country ?

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Comments

  • #32
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Labour gave us accessibility to college.


  • #33
    91011
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,383 ✭✭✭91011


    Having originally voted FG (fitgerald & Dukes era) then FF & PD's in more recent years. I've been particularly pleased to see that Michael Noonan has simlar policies to Brian Lenihan.

    Whilst there are many parts of the recession that could have been avoided, the actions currently been taken are necessary even if not palayable.

    With Noonan having, imo, a far better finance pedigree than Bruton and talking about what exactly he would be doing (rather than the "everything FF are doing is crap" attitude of bruton) I would tend to swing toward FG if there was an election soon.

    The overally "front bench" of FG seems to be made up of people with intelligence within particular fields rather than geo political lines which I suspect some current FF ministers are in the jobs for.


  • #34
    Einhard
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    Fr0g wrote: »
    The guarantee would have stopped a run on AIB and BOI without saving Anglo. Including Anglo in the guarantee was more about who had money in anglo rather than any other consideration.

    .

    I'm no fan of FF, but I find these kind of conspiracy theories preposterous. Are you really suggesting that Brian Lenihan and others, both in government and in the Dept of Finance, decided to bail out Anglo at a cost of €30 odd billion for the sole purpose of safegaurding vested interests, who lost out anyway when the bank was nationalised? When you think about that rationally, I don't think that anyone can really believe that's what happened.


  • #35
    Einhard
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Labour gave us accessibility to college.


    Some would argue that all free fees really achieved was to subside 3rd level for those families who would have been able to afford it anyway.


  • #36
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Einhard wrote: »
    Some would argue that all free fees really achieved was to subside 3rd level for those families who would have been able to afford it anyway.

    Some might.

    I would argue that it has allowed access to thousands of working class families around Ireland to go on and better themselves. I say this as a person from a working class background who's recently just finished college and is about to start a masters degree. I was the first person in my extended family to go to college, and without the abolition of fees - I wouldn't have been able to do so.


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  • #37
    scr123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 234 ✭✭scr123


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Some might.

    I would argue that it has allowed access to thousands of working class families around Ireland to go on and better themselves. I say this as a person from a working class background who's recently just finished college and is about to start a masters degree. I was the first person in my extended family to go to college, and without the abolition of fees - I wouldn't have been able to do so.

    I left primary in 1959 because the Ma and Da needed £2.10.0 to send me to secondary, thats 2 pounds 10 shillings and huge money at the time, a weeks wages for the Da and on top of that books would have to be paid. Not complaining as I went to UK and got ediucated free in later years. Not saying either that people are lucky now but more than grateful that my kids went to college and paid registration fees that were earned by part time work. It may be tough for some people now but overall its a sheer pleasure to witness so many of our young people going to third level education and aspiring to better things. Sour note for me is that during the good years so many kids got a smell of money and did not go to college, they are paying the price now

    Nearly forgetting, it was FF who introduced free education, the other showers could not get past the winning post at elections to even contemplate such wonderful progress


  • #38
    mrboswell
    Registered Users Posts: 1,188 ✭✭✭mrboswell


    scr123 wrote: »
    I left primary in 1959 because the Ma and Da needed £2.10.0 to send me to secondary, thats 2 pounds 10 shillings and huge money at the time, a weeks wages for the Da and on top of that books would have to be paid. Not complaining as I went to UK and got ediucated free in later years. Not saying either that people are lucky now but more than grateful that my kids went to college and paid registration fees that were earned by part time work. It may be tough for some people now but overall its a sheer pleasure to witness so many of our young people going to third level education and aspiring to better things. Sour note for me is that during the good years so many kids got a smell of money and did not go to college, they are paying the price now

    Nearly forgetting, it was FF who introduced free education, the other showers could not get past the winning post at elections to even contemplate such wonderful progress

    Spot on with first part.

    The economy took off in the 60's and thats what brought the change in the education system.
    Free eduction is too much of a general term. Free second level, not third level, was introduced the late 60's I think. If you had of only hung in there you might have benefited.

    No doubt FF claimed the growth in the economy in the 60's was due to them, just like they did with the most recent growth in the economy. But then washed their hands of the mess they got us into. Time to stop slapping yourselves on the back and fix it.

    Anyway it doesn't matter who introduced fees - fact is they are free and it has opened up education to people who previously couldn't have availed of it.

    Now back on topic.
    As I said previously, and its ultimately all that matters, FG and Labour provide and continue to provide an alternative when voting comes around.


  • #39
    Fr0g
    Registered Users Posts: 594 ✭✭✭Fr0g


    Einhard wrote: »
    I'm no fan of FF, but I find these kind of conspiracy theories preposterous. Are you really suggesting that Brian Lenihan and others, both in government and in the Dept of Finance, decided to bail out Anglo at a cost of €30 odd billion for the sole purpose of safegaurding vested interests, who lost out anyway when the bank was nationalised? When you think about that rationally, I don't think that anyone can really believe that's what happened.

    Three solicitors from Dermot G. O Donavan are directors of Fordmount Group who owe Anglo upwards 100 million euros.
    In other words major contributors to mess we now find ourselves in.

    they are claiming here that they believed the personal guarantees would never be enforced. Please read on bearing in mind that these people are solicitors:
    http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0630/limerick.html

    So you would expect that NAMA would hound these shysters until they got every penny? No?

    You would never believe that this same firm of solicitors would actually be given a job working FOR NAMA would you?

    Surely that wouldn't happen?

    Fordmount developers are NAMA solicitors

    This is just one example of safeguarding vested interests, but you can call it a conspiracy theory if you want to.


  • #40
    Fr0g
    Registered Users Posts: 594 ✭✭✭Fr0g


    What? NAMA are paying developers? I thought it was supposed to be the other way around?

    http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/politics/nama-to-pay-salaries-expenses-to-developers-123606.html


    This poor little dear has been liberated:

    http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/i-owe-8364200m-and-feel-like-i-have-been-liberated-2190375.html
    I feel liberated to walk away from it to be honest.

    I'll finish with this since I have brought the thread off topic:

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/nama-the-truth-its-a-bailout-for-developers-2200525.html


  • #41
    Einhard
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Some might.

    I would argue that it has allowed access to thousands of working class families around Ireland to go on and better themselves. I say this as a person from a working class background who's recently just finished college and is about to start a masters degree. I was the first person in my extended family to go to college, and without the abolition of fees - I wouldn't have been able to do so.

    I was pretty much in the same boat myself. I'm not against free fees per se, but rather have a problem with their blanket introduction. Government support, in the form of free fees, the dole, medical cards etc, should be afforded to those who really need it, and there are many who avail of free third level education who have parents wealthy enough to fund it themselves. I believe that the money that currently goes to subsidise the wealthy would be better off going to improve the grants of those who, despite te introduction of free fees, still sturggle to put themselves through college.


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  • #42
    Einhard
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    Fr0g wrote: »
    What? NAMA are paying developers? I thought it was supposed to be the other way around?

    http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/politics/nama-to-pay-salaries-expenses-to-developers-123606.html


    This poor little dear has been liberated:

    http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/i-owe-8364200m-and-feel-like-i-have-been-liberated-2190375.html



    I'll finish with this since I have brought the thread off topic:

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/nama-the-truth-its-a-bailout-for-developers-2200525.html


    This really has nothing to do with what I posted. It's not enough, when claiming that Brian lenihan orchestrated a €30 billion fraud on the tax payer in order to protect his cronies, to point out that three solicitors who owe NAMA money ae contracted by that institution.

    Also, I'm not sure I find anything wrong with paying developers a reasonable sum to finish those projects which NAMA believes can be completed and sold at a profit to the state. It seems unbelievable at first glance, but what exactly is the alternative? To let such projects crumble when there's a reasonable chance of getting a return on them?

    Seriously, I know FF have proen thwmselves to be incompetent in government, but, much as one might dislike them, one cannot use that to assert massive, overt corruption of an unprecedented scale, or to dismiss every new initiative and expect to get away with it unchallenged.


  • #43
    Fr0g
    Registered Users Posts: 594 ✭✭✭Fr0g


    Einhard wrote: »
    Seriously, I know FF have proen thwmselves to be incompetent in government, but, much as one might dislike them, one cannot use that to assert massive, overt corruption of an unprecedented scale, or to dismiss every new initiative and expect to get away with it unchallenged.

    I take it you didn't follow the tribunals then. I think you are naive if you think that FF are not going to save themselves and their cronies first. The banks were not going to fail under FFs watch no matter what the cost or the outcome. They would never live it down and it would haunt them for decades. The D4 professional class were up to their tonsils in property mania. To let them fall or let property prices crash was not an option for FF it would have finished them as a party.

    This way they can claim they have done the right thing and taken the correct course of action for recovery. We will most likely default on sovereign debt but I'm sure they will try to spin their way out of that one when it happens. Of course if they can postpone it until they are out of office then they are laughing. Believe me there will be no remorse. They will sit in opposition claiming their salaries, pensions and expenses, laughing at the incumbent government as they try to deal with the fallout and wait patiently for the inevitable backlash which will return them to office.

    What we are witnessing is the culmination of decades of corruption, nepotism, me feinism, arrogance, ignorance and incompetence.

    The thing is when you have gotten away with so much you will keep trying to get away with more until you don't.


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