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Why would you give Labor your vote ?

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  • Options
    #152
    Eliot Rosewater
    Registered Users Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭Eliot Rosewater


    limklad wrote: »
    Not when it an Employers market and that if they can afford to hire people.

    :confused: What has that got to with anything? It still costs employers if income tax rates rise.
    limklad wrote: »
    That's your Solution!!!! It an easy Cop out. your solution is "To export our problem" and return us back to the old days of Immigration as per the depressing 80's.

    From what I originally said: "Well, it looks like Ireland's going to be pretty slow in recovering, and in a few years alternatives will re-emerge." The alternatives, in this case, are countries. Working in the US is an alternative to working in Ireland. If tax rates in Ireland rise people will increasingly take those alternatives.
    limklad wrote: »
    The Government need to address them. Manufacturing are the only method of gaining income to most low skill people. You continue to fail to read or understand my posts on this Thread on this subject.

    I think we're in agreement here, but you're claiming I don't understand you. :confused:

    But you agree with the importance of regaining competitiveness in the manufacturing sphere because, in reality, the "knowledge economy" will never provide enough jobs for everyone. But Labour are not going to help with this due to their resistance to decreases in min wage, government spending, tax, social welfare, public sector pay etc etc etc.


  • Options
    #153
    Dob74
    Registered Users Posts: 1,049 ✭✭✭Dob74


    Drumpot wrote: »
    Firstly, I genuinley thought your post was a piss take . . I wasnt being condescending, obviously I gave you more credit then you deserved.

    Secondly, the rest of my post was not directed at you. . As per above, I thought you were having a laugh and felt it did not require a reply.

    Thirdly the very fact you think I compared Hitler and Gilemore shows you just didnt get my point . . Where did I mention Hitler ? Try to read my disclaimer properly, I think it explains my point quite clearly that the point is about the masses following a leader without question, even when questions should be asked.

    I am asking fair questions on labour before we make a mistake and make them leaders without a challenge and people here seem to resent it . . They have decided that labour deserve a "free run" to power without question, simply because they are viewed as being the most palatable of what is widely regarded as sub standard party's . .

    I dont think that this stuff is rocket science . . Its a basic assessment of how people come to make decisions (in this case who they will follow) . . There is a very "you are either with or against" approach to discussions on boards.ie . . People just cant comprehend those who like to debate the merits of a topic on all sides. .


    Interesting, there have been many issue's brought by Labour supporters.
    All the FF/FG followers are just repeating the spin, put out by the usual suspects indo,times and rte, that Labour have no policies.
    It's this simple if you have enjoyed the neo-liberal policies of FF/PD, vote for FF or FG.
    If you want a centre left gov vote for Labour.


  • Options
    #154
    questionmark?
    Registered Users Posts: 3,071 ✭✭✭questionmark?


    Drumpot wrote: »
    Why would you give Labour your vote ?

    I wouldn't. They wouldn't know a Policy if it slapped them around the face.


  • Options
    #155
    limklad
    Registered Users Posts: 1,980 ✭✭✭limklad


    Eliot Rosewater wrote: »
    :confused: What has that got to with anything? It still costs employers if income tax rates rise.
    You are still confusing "Income Tax" the Tax every workers pays from their wages that is different from Taxes Business pay.

    Increases in "Income taxes" Punishes Workers not business.


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    #156
    Pride Fighter
    Registered Users Posts: 5,729 ✭✭✭Pride Fighter


    questionmark? wrote: »
    I wouldn't. They wouldn't know a Policy if it slapped them around the face.

    Labour have published 45 policy documents and 25 private members bills since the 2007 general election. So yeah, they do not know policy:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:


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    #157
    Eliot Rosewater
    Registered Users Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭Eliot Rosewater


    limklad wrote: »
    You are still confusing "Income Tax" the Tax every workers pays from their wages that is different from Taxes Business pay.

    No, once again, I am not.

    This post.
    This post.
    This post (the really simplified example).

    I just can't make it any clearer. Higher income tax = higher cost of business.


  • Options
    #158
    questionmark?
    Registered Users Posts: 3,071 ✭✭✭questionmark?


    Pride Fighter wrote: »
    So yeah, they do not know policy

    Their i got rid of the rest for ya looks better now:p

    Seriously they say things but never really back it up how any of their ideas can work in reality gilmore is just the political version of Joe Duffy just jumping on the bandwagon of the Irish nations greatest sport..... moaning. And as for their snuggling up to the unions they need to get a reality check.


  • Options
    #159
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,795 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    gandalf wrote: »
    Labour are riding a protest wave at the moment.

    Gilmore is whinging and some people are identifying with that, especially those from the Public Service who would normally vote for Fianna Fail. Whether they can actually turn the poll numbers into seats is another story.

    I am an ex Labour party member and I certainly will not be voting for them given their inability to smell the roses and realise that drastic changes have to be made to the Public Service that will involve very unpopular cuts. I am especially uncomfortable that some one of the calibre of Jack O'Connor is on the National Executive given his propensity for living in an alternative reality to the rest of us in Ireland.

    I do think they actually know this but are hoping to ride the wave into power come out with the old line "The previous Government did not make clear how bad the situation actually is" and the go ahead and make the necessary cuts.

    Jack O Connor is no longer on the Labour Executive Board by the way

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Options
    #160
    Pride Fighter
    Registered Users Posts: 5,729 ✭✭✭Pride Fighter


    questionmark? wrote: »
    Their i got rid of the rest for ya looks better now:p

    Seriously they say things but never really back it up how any of their ideas can work in reality gilmore is just the political version of Joe Duffy just jumping on the bandwagon of the Irish nations greatest sport..... moaning. And as for their snuggling up to the unions they need to get a reality check.

    You are talking baloney. As I said Labour have published 45 policy documents and 25 private members bills in the last 3 years. Why dont you get your facts straight before talking rubbish.


  • Options
    #161
    rugbyman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,783 ✭✭✭rugbyman


    Have just dropped in here without reading all of the thread.

    I voted next highest pref for Lab after FG all my life. They never received any value from it as the Fg man was elected without a surplus. It was a token gesture to prospective Coalition partners.(let down somewhat by Ruari Quinn/ff onone occasion.

    I am considering not doing so this time, which actually could be of use to Lab as they have agood,candidate in my area.
    It would be difficult to dislike any labour candidates. they all seem to be an affable lot and they are muting their historic links to organised workers.

    the issue for me,at this time is Eamonn Gilmores ear shattering silence on public sector reform. i realise that this is politics ,and he wants to cash in on disaffected ,former FF, public sector voters. I know and he knows that he will ,in coalition, have to be part of cuts.

    In the recent Uk election, no party openly stated there would need to be cuts. It was the elephant in the room.

    the party is over for the many hundreds of thousands of state employees all over Europe. Note now how the militant anti Croke Park agreement unions have been greatly outnumbered by pro agreement unions(in numbers of members). Even the Croke Park agreement now seems to offer too much security for PS in the light of European trends now emerging.


    Rugbyman


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    #162
    invinciblePRSTV
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,017 ✭✭✭invinciblePRSTV


    Eliot Rosewater wrote: »



    Richard Bruton: Masters in Economics from Oxford. :D

    A qualification achieved 40 years ago isn't as desirable as actual hands on experience in running a Finance Ministry i would argue.


  • Options
    #163
    Drumpot
    Registered Users Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    killbillvol2 wrote: »
    I should have made myself a bit clearer yesterday. If you're going to talk down to people you need to have the intellectual capacity to do it.

    And ffs the man's name is Gilmore.

    Intellectual - a person who uses intelligence (thought and reason) and critical or analytical reasoning in either a professional or a personal capacity. .

    Nothing about spelling there and pretty much sums up the metaphorical example I was trying to portray regarding the choices made by masses . .

    And I put the disclaimer in because it was not beyond the realms of possiblility of complaints being made because I used a "controversial" word, not simply to "talk down to people". .

    That aside, I was only condescending when people started arguing about a point I didnt make and tried to slag me on points they didnt understand .

    Try to keep up . .


  • Options
    #164
    Drumpot
    Registered Users Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    Ok . .

    For all the links and all the "policies" that labour have .

    What is their stance on the Croke Park agreement ?


  • Options
    #165
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users Posts: 14,329 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    invinciblePRSTV wrote: »
    A qualification achieved 40 years ago isn't as desirable as actual hands on experience in running a Finance Ministry i would argue.

    Doesn't every finance minister learn on the job? They're all apprentices unless they do a second term.


  • Options
    #166
    Pride Fighter
    Registered Users Posts: 5,729 ✭✭✭Pride Fighter


    Here is all of Labour's policies since they have had the website up. http://www.labour.ie/policy/listing.html

    Very easy to use and navigate.


  • Options
    #167
    invinciblePRSTV
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,017 ✭✭✭invinciblePRSTV


    jimmycrackcorm wrote: »
    Doesn't every finance minister learn on the job? They're all apprentices unless they do a second term.

    Couldn't have done much better in his first term, shame he didn't get a seocnd crack of the whip.

    Btw your logic is flawed anyway, Charlie McCreevy did a lot of damage in his 2nd term, even an apprentice couldn't have squandered the Celtic Tiger proceeds in a such a terrible manner as he did.


  • Options
    #168
    Essexboy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 778 ✭✭✭Essexboy


    At the last General Election, a local priest arranged a meeting to which all parties were invited.
    The purpose of the meeting was to secure support for rezoning farmland for housing (the priest's hobby horse). SF, FG, Labour candidates turned up and duly supported the rezoning although it was obvious that they knew nothing about the subject. The only reason FF were not there was that the meeting started late and the FFer had to go elsewhere.

    If the rezoning went through my quality of life would have been seriously damaged so
    • why should I vote for any of these tossers?
    • WHO can I vote for?


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    #169
    Wide Road
    Closed Accounts Posts: 412 ✭✭Wide Road


    Has anyone noticed that Labour don't have many TDs that are sent out to bat on tv. I mean that Eamon Gilmore is a very active speaker (no fault for that) but aside from Joan Burton and Pat Rabitte, the rest are only heard when they are heckling across the dail floor. This maybe unfair on the other TDs but I can't remember seeing Emmett Stagg, Brendan Howlin (except for one appearance) speaking on tv and even Ruairi Quinn is very quiet for a well known politician. Is this a plan of the Labour party? It's serving them well but during election campaigns will they have enough time to explain their formulas with a small number of trusted speakers. Time will tell.


  • Options
    #170
    duffflash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 52 ✭✭duffflash


    scr123 wrote: »
    I would vote Labour if they gave me a hint as to how they are going to cure a few problems like:

    Unemployment

    Budget deficit

    National debt

    Banks crisis

    Crime

    Health service funding

    Education funding

    Social welfare funding

    Poverty problem

    Future pension problem

    Stop recessions

    Continuous economic growth

    Reserves of 100b to meet unexpected problems in the future

    Have a few more things on my mind but if they as I said HINT at how they are going achieve the above they will have a 1/2/3 for their candidates in the coming GE

    Looking forward to the experts enlightening me on the genius of Labour

    Since you such a big fianna failer maybe you could tell us how they are going to cure a few problems as per the above?

    Apart from bailing out the banks and developers, dreaming up 100 new ways a day of taxing the ordinary working people of this country into poverty and cutting every service in this country to bare bones.

    It looks like their only real policy is to force as many people as they can to emigrate and sure why not didn’t it work so well for them in the 50s and 80s.


  • Options
    #171
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    They were the only majory political party to oppose the bank guarantee and subsequent bailouts.

    Although I hate the phrase, I feel it is appropriate to use it now:

    Simples.


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    #172
    Wide Road
    Closed Accounts Posts: 412 ✭✭Wide Road


    Again I have to remind ye. Read the name of the thread and reply if you want. It's your choice, but don't reply to a thread on Labour by mentioning FF. Ye bash them, yet think it's right to quote them. If ye think they are so bad, why are ye judging Labour on FF. Why? Fight your own battle and your own policies.


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    #173
    meditraitor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,207 ✭✭✭meditraitor


    Wide Road wrote: »
    Again I have to remind ye. Read the name of the thread and reply if you want. It's your choice, but don't reply to a thread on Labour by mentioning FF. Ye bash them, yet think it's right to quote them. If ye think they are so bad, why are ye judging Labour on FF. Why? Fight your own battle and your own policies.

    You dont get it! Only by comparison can you judge a political party..... so comparing Labour to FG or FF is perfectly valid.

    In simple terms; if you have options a,b,c,d,e then the best way to judge which one is best you have to compare to the others and decide which one is most palitable to yourself.

    So to give your vote (or not for that matter) to labour then you must be able to say that FF or FG have less appeal because........


    Ignoring this line of discussion is only beneficial to the naysayers who have used some mighty fine rhetoric with very little substance to knock labour.


  • Options
    #174
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Wide Road wrote: »
    Again I have to remind ye. Read the name of the thread and reply if you want. It's your choice, but don't reply to a thread on Labour by mentioning FF. Ye bash them, yet think it's right to quote them. If ye think they are so bad, why are ye judging Labour on FF. Why? Fight your own battle and your own policies.

    OK, instead of saying that Labour opposed FF's bailout of the banks, I will say:

    Labour advocate for an orderly wind down and restructuring of the banking systems such as to enable an efficent yet cautious banking system to emerge with due regard to moral hazard while minimising the cost to the exchequer. Further, Labour believe that politicians should not endow certain private wealthy individuals with benefits in exchange for political donations and that all dealings with the banks must be open and transparent and if any criminal offences took place then they should be prosecuted instead of being pushed under the carpet.

    See, nothing to do with FF.


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    #175
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Wide Road wrote: »
    Again I have to remind ye. Read the name of the thread and reply if you want. It's your choice, but don't reply to a thread on Labour by mentioning FF. Ye bash them, yet think it's right to quote them. If ye think they are so bad, why are ye judging Labour on FF. Why? Fight your own battle and your own policies.

    Well, because one reason for voting almost anyone is "they're not as corrupt as FF".

    Another reason why I'd at least give them a preference is because they're not as in-the-pockets of big capitalist business as "others".

    I'd be wary of giving them sole power with an overall majority, because they are on the side of the unions to a large extent, thereby more in tune with the public service, but I do think that they have a handle on the costs of real life [soon to be called "surviving", because no-one will have a "life"], which FF certainly don't have, and at the very least if they were in coalition with another ethical party maybe they'd help convince people that some pain was actually required, rather than just being a mechanism to keep Ivor Callely & Seanie Fitz in the unjustified lifestyle to which they have become accustomed.


  • Options
    #176
    Drumpot
    Registered Users Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    So the main reasons people will vote labour -
    1. They are not FF (which is a reason not to vote FF, not necessarily vote labour)
    2. They have more socialist principles - FF bought public service votes and look where that got us . This is why it is key to get an answer on the Croke Park deal that Pro-Labour camp continually ignore.
    3. They are not capitalist or big company puppets. So who do you think will fund our recovery? Not only that, how does bringing in social principle's help Ireland out of this crisis ?
    4. http://www.labour.ie/policy/listing.html - I read some (admittedly not all) and none of them are less then definitive, nor do they clearly outline how they will finance their plans. The response from Pro-Labour people is that none of the parties have clear guidelines. Right, so, if all parties have policy's that wont really be clear, how do Labour's have any more/less credibility ? Not just that it says nothing about the croke park agreement and as such their policy on the economy is out of date and potentially undeliverable as such.
    5. They wont be corrupt. And we know this how exactly ? Oh yeh, we should just assume it based on them seldom, if ever being in complete control of the country and being in a position to be corrupt.
    6. Eamon Gilemore. Good at bashing FF. Good at speaking populist rhetoric. Cant think of much else.

    On top of this, most of the labour supporters keep point fingers at FF (or referencing them) as if the only option from FF is Labour. Im sorry but not wanting to Vote for FF is not a reaosn to vote Labour. Greens, independents, Sinn Fein and even Fianna Gail are an alterntaive that could argue the same point. In fact half the reasons for supposedly voting in labour could be argued by other parties or independent T.D's.

    Not just that, as a party looking to get into power, it is up to them to show the people why they should be given the key's to power. Referring people to a website is something I would expect from a cocky FF'er in 2002 elections. If you cant be bothered actually putting down policies and points to back up your own feelings on Labour, then quit the cop out links to their website. Its just the kind of "sidestepping the main issue's" that concerns me regarding Labours agenda.

    I agree with alot of Labour's policies and would be more a socialist then a capitalist. However there are serious holes in the policies that nobody appears to want to discuss or defend (just ignore!).

    I refer to these posts :

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=66443326&postcount=101

    and

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=66440027&postcount=91


    It still appears that the Pro-Labour camp cant actually address the most important issue's that this country face. (Cue the "your just an FF supporter" etc, with no credible rebuttle to any important points that we have tried to discuss as if important issue's are not important if they are made by people who dont support Labour).

    I dont blame them, it mirrors that of the labour party who tense up and avoid any meaningful debate on the BIGGEST issues this country faces. That is what concerns me. Not their policies or agenda, not what they stand for, but how they intend on dealing with the country and how they will take us forward with the country in such a crisis. We cant afford to just ignore these questions and assume since they arent "as corrupt" as FF they will do well by us. . The world doesnt work that way and if we require the help of other countries/investors to help us finance our future infrastructural plans, we better hope that we havent voted in a party for some of the reasons that have been mentioned above. I wouldnt give Billions of money to a country who's main party's biggest quality is that they are'nt FF . . .


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    #177
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Drumpot wrote: »
    It still appears that the Pro-Labour camp cant actually address the most important issue's that this country face. (Cue the "your just an FF supporter" etc, with no credible rebuttle to any important points that we have tried to discuss as if important issue's are not important if they are made by people who dont support Labour).

    I believe that the biggest three issues in Ireland are:

    1. the bank bailouts
    2. the high level of social welfare
    3. the inefficiency in the public sector.

    1. FF/FG both support bailing out the banks whatever the cost. Labour are all about letting the banks fail. It is strange that the idea of letting unproductive businesses fail rather than giving them loads of money is considered incompatible with left wing social democracy.

    2. Labour have said that they will not directly cut the rates, but will work hard on reducing corruption in social welfare. But they have to say that to get elected. Also, I can't see the other parties cutting social welfare significantly. After the election, Labour may well argue that social welfare should be cut to below minimum wage to encourage people back to work. Certainly, they are less afraid to touch wealthy pensioners than FF are.

    3. Part of the inefficiency in the public sector is the appointment of political cronies. Both FF and FG do this whenever they are in power. It is not clear whether Labour would do this, but I can't see them doing it anywhere near as much as the other two.

    So on the big three issues, and bearing in mind that you can't pick and choose, I would say that Labour would do the least damage to the economy if in power. They have categorically stated that they will not raise the corporation tax so there is no difference as regards FDI IMO.


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    #178
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    I think you're over-simplifying it, Drumpot.
    Drumpot wrote: »
    So the main reasons people will vote labour -
    [*]They have more socialist principles - FF bought public service votes and look where that got us . This is why it is key to get an answer on the Croke Park deal that Pro-Labour camp continually ignore.

    Buying votes is not the same as having true socialist principles; even if it were, there's no guarantee that FF's approach and actions would be the right, or the only, options.

    Think "Theirry Henry" creating a goal and you'll get the idea; there are right ways and wrong ways, and just because FF have their corrupt and self-interested dodgy ways doesn't mean that everyone else will do the exact same, doing the same damage.
    Drumpot wrote: »
    [*]They are not capitalist or big company puppets. So who do you think will fund our recovery? Not only that, how does bringing in social principle's help Ireland out of this crisis ?

    Via a general acceptance, for starters, whereby people don't see TDs and bank heads and developers making off with fortunes while they themselves are on the breadline.

    The current "privatise profits / socialise losses" is wrong.
    Drumpot wrote: »
    [*]They wont be corrupt. And we know this how exactly ? Oh yeh, we should just assume it based on them seldom, if ever being in complete control of the country and being in a position to be corrupt.

    Aren't people assumed innocent until found guilty out ?
    Drumpot wrote: »
    [*]Eamon Gilemore. Good at bashing FF. Good at speaking populist rhetoric. Cant think of much else.

    Again, the prejudiced word "bashing", instead of the relevant phrase "pointing out problems and issues with"
    Drumpot wrote: »
    Im sorry but not wanting to Vote for FF is not a reaosn to vote Labour. Greens, independents, Sinn Fein and even Fianna Gail are an alterntaive that could argue the same point.

    I'm not sure who "Fianna Gail" are, but yes, people could vote for either FG or Labour.....I would reckon there's too much of a concern re a lot of the others that they might "pull a Greens" and go in with FF, thereby negating the reason for voting for them.
    Drumpot wrote: »
    I agree with alot of Labour's policies and would be more a socialist then a capitalist. However there are serious holes in the policies that nobody appears to want to discuss or defend (just ignore!).

    Unfortunately the damage has been done, and until Irish people realise they can't actually fall back on socialism in bad times while going all "mé féin" during boom times, we will never improve or make progress.
    Drumpot wrote: »
    I dont blame them, it mirrors that of the labour party who tense up and avoid any meaningful debate on the BIGGEST issues this country faces.

    It's STILL better than a deluded party who think they're unpopular "because of tough decisions", rather than "because they landed us in the almighty s**t".

    Like an AA member, if you can't recognise the problem, you can't find / be part of a solution.


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