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Sexual assault...but sure he's a nice lad..Mod Warning Post 275

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 13,713 ✭✭✭✭Novella


    K-9 wrote: »
    Why?

    Before you answer think why you answered the way you did.

    Then think the complete reverse of what you read into it.

    But, think again why you reacted the way you did.

    I'm not gonna justify my reaction to you. What was said just there was completely offensive to any woman who has ever been sexually assaulted.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,696 Mod ✭✭✭✭Silverfish


    Final warning. We are not debating the innocence of the perpetrator here. Any more ignoring of moderator warnings will result in a ban.


  • Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Silverfish wrote: »
    No, if you are trying to make some sort of point here, I'd come out and say it.
    K9 wrote:
    Its the "there is something about that wan" defence.

    Its always the other persons fault, whether it be a speeding ticket, "its the Guards fault", drink driving, "its the Guards fault", tax evasion "its the Revenue's fault
    , Northern car, "customs fault" etc.

    There is always somebody to blame so in this case make her out to be "easy, she has a past, how many fathers to how many children" etc.

    All the while ignoring the girl was too platic drunk to consent to a icepop, never mind anything else.

    Edit. Thought my above quote was clear, obviously not. Its the way the legal system works. I'm offended anybody took it up any other way.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭asdasd


    All the while ignoring the girl was too platic drunk to consent to a icepop, never mind anything else.

    She was sexually assaulted becuase he took her to a skip and assaulted her and was found to do so by the Gardai and his story did not hold water.

    Defining sexual assault as sex, or sexual activity, with a woman who is "too drunk to consent" is a legal and moral minefield.

    The result would be the end of any deunken consensual activity, we would be back to the 19th century.


  • Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    asdasd wrote: »
    She was sexually assaulted becuase he took her to a skip and assaulted her and was found to do so by the Gardai and his story did not hold water.

    Defining sexual assault as sex, or sexual activity, with a woman who is "too drunk to consent" is a legal and moral minefield.

    The result would be the end of any deunken consensual activity, we would be back to the 19th century.

    I'd agree to an extent, but we are onto a different thread really!

    Tbh, ending drunken sexual activity could have far more benefits than disadvantages, but sure, not the point of the thread.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭asdasd


    yes, I am off topic. Will start a thread on the topic of drunken sex some other time :-)


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,756 ✭✭✭Jules


    asdasd banned for continued off topic after mod warning.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭koHd


    What is the difference between rape and sexual assault, if the sexual assault is sex without consent? Surely that's just rape? Confusing. Unless there has to be violence involved for it to be termed rape? Also, I'm confused on boards stance on this. Ok the guy is guilty. He should be locked up. But not allowing the discussion that the courts may have got it wrong? I don't like where that could go in the future. And just to stress I'm not in doubt he's guilty. I just think it's a bad direction for boards to go to take. If somebody has a reasonable argument to put forward that the judical system failed, I'd like to think they could do it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,756 ✭✭✭Jules


    But this thread was nto started to discuss the courts being wrong or right. The OP didnt say, do you think he was wrongly charged. it was started to discuss the effect on the victim and the discussion of her going through the case. If you want to discuss that aspect of the thread take it to humanities not the ladies lounge. And this is not boards stance on the subject just this particular thread in this particular forum.

    End of... and anymore on that particular topic, guilt or innocence will result in a slaps on wrists


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,713 ✭✭✭✭Novella


    K-9 wrote: »
    Edit. Thought my above quote was clear, obviously not. Its the way the legal system works. I'm offended anybody took it up any other way.

    I apologise for taking you up the wrong way. I didn't mean to offend you but from your original post, I thought you were implying that all women who are sexually assaulted are promiscuous. I am sorry though and I do see what you mean now.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,756 ✭✭✭Jules


    apologies to k-9 i completely read his post wrong and completely did not deserve any ban.

    reversed and again apologies K-9


  • Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Jules wrote: »
    apologies to k-9 i completely read his post wrong and completely did not deserve any ban.

    reversed and again apologies K-9

    Thank you and your time and patience was appreciated!

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,163 ✭✭✭✭Boston


    Silverfish wrote: »
    Final warning. We are not debating the innocence of the perpetrator here. Any more ignoring of moderator warnings will result in a ban.

    If he was found innocent no post any where on boards proclaiming him as really guilty would have been tolerated due to libel laws. Perhaps a lesson to learn from that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 716 ✭✭✭Reesy


    Just a point re comments early on in this thread:
    AntiRip wrote: »
    look if I'm going to be attacked just because I know the people and just hear whats been said around me I'll say no more. I haven't expressed any opinion only to say it's sad.
    AntiRip, sorry but on the one hand you say that you _know_ a fuller story and on the other you say (if I understand you correctly) that this knowledge comes from 'whats been said' around you. Do you really know the story or do you just know some rumours? If you do know some extra evidence, why didn't you tell the police or the defence lawyer? If you don't, please refrain from innuendo.


  • Registered Users Posts: 54,572 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    taconnol wrote: »
    In all of this, the person whose behavior I least understand is his fiancee.
    .

    Why? Did you ever hear the saying, Stand by your man?

    The world is littered with these gullible and devious women who
    will encourage, support, lie for and cover for their men.
    It doesn't surprise me one bit


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,756 ✭✭✭Jules


    But he was found guilty and sent to gaol for it. we will be keeping a close eye on this thread. please keep it on topic.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Love is blind. Some women will stand by anyone no matter what they do and churn out that stupid line "but I love him"

    I know a girl who is living with her boyfriend, a sex offender. She knows he did it but still stands by him because she is "in love" with him.

    I just don't get it...I couldn't support a man who could do this to another woman let alone stay in a relationship with him. Has she no self respect?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,410 ✭✭✭sparkling sea


    A jury convicted this guy - that is a jury of his peers - people without a vested interest who looked at the evidence and came to a unanimous verdict. Guilty

    This guy carried a semi-conscious woman to a skip and was found by gardai bending over her. The woman was naked from the waist down. She was bruised and scratched.

    There is no statutory definition of consent in Irish law. However, case-law and legislation do provide some guidance on the circumstances when consent may be deemed to be absent. In order to be valid, consent must be voluntarily and consciously given. It has, therefore, been held there are certain circumstances where a person may be incapable of giving consent and a man who has sex or sexual assualts a person under such circumstances may be found guilty.

    She was semi conscious and naked from the waist down - he pretended he found for her because he realised how it looked. It looked like he was committing a crime and that was because he was.

    Anyone who can justify what this chap did needs to re evaluate their whole way of thinking about sex and what they deem to be consensual. If they dont and they may end up in jail and rightly so in .

    Some people do stand by their man but it is not a reasonable thing to do, and if you are with this type of man voluntarily it doesn't say much about your own self esteem , maybe these type of guys make sure you have none


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,571 ✭✭✭herya


    koHd wrote: »
    What is the difference between rape and sexual assault, if the sexual assault is sex without consent? Surely that's just rape? Confusing. Unless there has to be violence involved for it to be termed rape?

    It's been explained up thread I think. It has nothing to do with violence or the lack of it, but with the nature of the sex act forced. If it's with penetration, it's rape, if the penetration didn't happen it's a sexual assault. I'm not sure if forced oral penetration is considered rape, you see "oral rape" in some articles but I don't know if it's a legal term.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    herya wrote: »
    It's been explained up thread I think. It has nothing to do with violence or the lack of it, but with the nature of the sex act forced. If it's with penetration, it's rape, if the penetration didn't happen it's a sexual assault. I'm not sure if forced oral penetration is considered rape, you see "oral rape" in some articles but I don't know if it's a legal term.
    I'm sortof thinking out loud here but while I do not challenge the mods demand for accuracy that the conviction in this case be described as sexual assault and not rape, I fail to see the distinction from the point of view of a libel risk (whatever about a distinction from a legal perspective or one of impact on the victims). Surely nobody would make any great distinction in the character of two men, with one having a conviction for rape and the other for sexual assault?


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  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 12,909 Mod ✭✭✭✭iguana


    herya wrote: »
    I'm not sure if forced oral penetration is considered rape, you see "oral rape" in some articles but I don't know if it's a legal term.

    Rape is defined as forced vaginal, anal or oral penetration by a penis or forced penetration of the vagina or anus by another bodily part or an object. Sexual assault is a molestation where no penetration occurs and aggravated sexual assault is a sexual assault where the perpetrator has used violence.

    Eta: Link; http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1990/en/act/pub/0032/index.html


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,220 ✭✭✭Ambersky


    I think it would be helpful for some people to have another look at the film
    The Accused with Jodie Foster and Kelly McGillis.
    Not that the cases are the same, but because it deals with a case where there was a public perception of rape (in the film) or sexual assault and the victims dress, behaviour etc, that lead to her not being taken seriously.

    I have already posted this link elsewhere but if I am allowed to again I think it has a lot to say to people in Ireland today.
    When people get heated over the particulars in a case sometimes it is possible to get a more rounded perspective of the issue by looking at how it has been dealt with elsewhere.
    These issues - the charachter of the victim being brought into question because of how she dresses, her relationship with men, etc - the good charachter of the accused - the reaction of local people - are not new.
    Women and Womens groups have been campaigning for an understanding of the simple statement No Means No
    whether you knew him or not, no matter what you were wearing, no matter how many men you slept with before, no matter what your relationship with him was, no matter whether you are married to him or not, no matter how aroused he was before you said No. It is all right to say no at any stage.
    The Accused

    BY ROGER EBERT / October 14, 1988

    The Accused" demonstrates that rape victims often are suspects in their own cases. Surely they must have been somehow to blame. How were they behaving at the time of the crime? How were they dressed? Had they been drinking? Is their personal life clean and tidy? Or are they sluts who were just asking for it? I am aware of the brutal impact of the previous sentence. But the words were carefully chosen, because sometimes they reflect the unspoken suspicions of officials in the largely male judicial system.

    "The Accused" is a movie about Sarah Tobias, a young woman who is not a model citizen. One night she has a fight with her live-in boyfriend, who is a drug dealer. She goes to a sleazy bar and has too much to drink, and does a provocative dance to the jukebox, and begins to flirt with a man in the bar's back room.

    And then things get out of hand. The man, also drunk, picks her up and lays her down on top of a pin-ball machine, and begins to assault her. Two other men hold her down, helpless. The music pounds. The other guys in the back room begin to cheer and chant and egg him on, and when he is finished they push another guy forward, and then another. Finally she escapes and runs weeping out onto the highway, crying for help.

    The film shows most of this sequence only later, in a flashback.

    Its opening scenes deal with the immediate aftermath of the rape, as the woman (Jodie Foster) is moved through the emergency care and legal systems, where she meets professionals who are courteous and efficient, but not overly sympathetic. Then she meets Kathryn Murphy (Kelly McGillis), the assistant district attorney who will handle her case.

    McGillis is not impressed with some of the things she discovers, such as Tobias' previous conviction on drug possession charges, or her drinking on the night of the crime. And one of the rape suspects is a young fraternity man whose parents hire a good lawyer. In conference, the assistant D. A. agrees to reduce charges to "aggravated assault." Tobias feels betrayed. She was raped, brutally, repeatedly, in front of many witnesses. It was not "aggravated assault." And the argument of the movie is that although a young woman may act improperly, even recklessly, she still should have the right to say "no" and be heard. This is something the McGillis character has difficulty understanding, at first; she is so comfortable within the informal compromises of the judicial system that she has lost some of her capacity for outrage.

    In a sense, the movie is about the relationship between these two women, one an articulate lawyer, the other an inarticulate, angry alcoholic who sometimes lacks the words for the things she feels. One of the interesting choices in the screenplay by Tom Topor was to make it so hard for the Foster character to express herself, so that when she speaks we can almost feel each word being wrung out of her emotions. During the course of the film, the woman attorney comes to identify some of her client's feelings as actual experiences, not simply legal evidence. And the rape victim begins to see herself as others see her; we feel it is possible that the relationship between the two women will lead eventually the Foster character to clean up her act, stop drinking, and start taking responsibility for herself.

    The other current in the film is equally interesting. This is the first film I can remember that considers the responsibility of bystanders in a rape case. The drunken fraternity boys and townies who climb on the furniture and chant and cheer are accessories to rape, although our society sometimes has difficulty in understanding that.

    When the McGillis character finally decides to bring some of them to trial, she gets no support at all from the chief district attorney, and many of her colleagues feel she's lost her mind. Assistant D. A.s are supposed to try cases they can win, not go looking for lost causes. But the lesson learned in the movie's second trial may be the most important message this movie has to offer.

    I wonder who will find the film more uncomfortable - men or women? Both will recoil from the brutality of the scenes of the assault. But for some men, the movie will reveal a truth that most women already know. It is that verbal sexual harassment, whether crudely in a saloon back room or subtly in an everyday situation, is a form of violence - one that leaves no visible marks but can make its victims feel unable to move freely and casually in society. It is a form of imprisonment.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,125 ✭✭✭lightening


    ash23 wrote: »
    This has actually given me huge food for thought.
    I live in a rural town but I'm not from here originally. Not many people would know me. I'm a single mum, have been with a few guys here casually enough, I'm a wee bit of a party animal as in I'm out drinking most weekends.
    I rarely drink so much that I can't remember what has happened or pass out but it has happened to me once or twice.

    I just know that if I were in this position, where I drank so much I pretty much passed out in a club, was carried out by some local bloke who proceeded to strip me and assault me out beside a skip, I would feel violated and I would want this person to be prosecuted.

    But I can also see that I would be the one portrayed as the bad guy. Sure, I'm out drinking every weekend with a child at home. I've been with him and him, what a slut I am. And sure, young Johnny down the road is well known and plays GAA for the local team, works with his daddy on the farm, is a credit to his mammy and is a good looking guy to boot. He wouldn't need to assualt someone. That I should be lucky that someone like him wants me........


    Jesus, it makes my skin crawl to think of it. But thats exactly how it would be :mad::(

    Best post of the thread. Don't change your ways ash23, I have plenty of friends just like you and I love them for it. Living their lives on their terms, not their neighbours terms, not their peers terms. The more people accept that a girl can do what she wants within the law, no matter where she lives, no matter how much fun she is having, this sort of reaction will not happen as much. The Danny Foley's of this world will think twice about what they are doing too.

    I like your style.


  • Registered Users Posts: 613 ✭✭✭carolmon


    copy of my email to Dermot Aherne Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, please copy and paste to http://www.fiannafail.ie/page/s/contact and all your local TDs

    Re Listowel Sexual Abuse case
    I have a query re the judicial system that you may be able to clarify.
    I was shocked and disgusted that 50 sympathisers of a convicted sexual criminal were allowed express such open support in an Irish court.

    My query is has this ever occured before for a crime of a different nature, ie has there ever been a case where sympathisers of armed robbers, drug dealers or other criminals were allowed show open support and disdain for the victim in an Irish Court?

    As Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform what are your thoughts on what happened in court and subsequently what has happened in Listowel, ie the shunning of the victim and the refusal of services to her?

    Thank you for your time, I await your response.
    Carol


  • Registered Users Posts: 613 ✭✭✭carolmon


    you can also contact listowel town council to protest the refusal of services to the victim
    townclerk@listoweludc.ie


    the following is copied from the facebook group "shocked by reaction in Listowel"

    http://www.facebook.com/group.php?v=wall&ref=mf&gid=204392248545

    "I am outraged at the recent snub given to the woman at
    the centre of the recent controversy in Listowel, when she was refused service
    in a local store. I must ask that all stores NOT discriminating against this
    corageo...us woman be posted on your website, so as to enable me to shop ethically
    whilst in Listowel. Failing this, I will not know where to shop and will take my
    custom else elsewhere.
    Why not show your solidarity by doing likewise? Let us know when you have. Thanks.


  • Registered Users Posts: 613 ✭✭✭carolmon


    my email to listowel town council
    townclerk@listoweltc.ie



    Dear Sir/ Madam

    I have a query re the actions of some businesses in Listowel ie the
    refusing of services to the victim of sexual assault by Danny Foley.

    I would like to know if these actions contravene any of your
    legislation and if so what action you will be taking.

    Also will this blatant discrimination and breach of Equality
    legislation be considered when businesses are applying for licence
    renewals etc.

    The below is taken from www.equality.ie

    Summary of Equal Status


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 12,909 Mod ✭✭✭✭iguana


    I've just emailed the Listowel councillor Jackie Barrett-Madigan who has complained tonight that Listowel has been subjected to unfair comment particularly when a sexual assault case such as this could have occured anywhere.
    She says it's unfair Listowel's good name is being targeted.
    Ms Barrett,

    I am writing in connection with your comments about your dismay that Listowel's image is being tarnished. First off I must correct you, it is not the sexual assault case itself which has outraged people. Unfortunately we are all too familiar with these incidents. What has outraged people, and what is showing Listowel in this terrible light, is the actions of a reasonably large group of people who are showing solidarity with a sex offender while vilifying his victim.

    Secondly, when you make comments of the sort you have made showing such scant regard for what is quite obviously outraging people you yourself are damaging the image of your town. Last weeks display in the courtroom was, quite frankly, disgusting and it is unsurprising that your town's reputation has been badly damaged. The only way to mitigate this damage is to ensure that everybody can plainly see just how disgusted most people in Listowel are by what has happened. This is one of those situations where by not standing up and being counted in your outrage you will be tarnished by association.

    This story has international coverage, it is not just Listowel, or Kerry, that looks bad because of this, but the entire country. The rest of the country is showing it's outrage, it's time for Listowel to do the same. Not just to save Listowel's image but for a far, far more important reason, showing the VICTIM some support. A town who supports it's weakest members and protects them from insult and injury will only ever been seen as a wonderful place to the outside world. One which allows them to be subjected to a traumatising hate campaign will look as poor a place as it is.

    Yours sincerely,


  • Registered Users Posts: 613 ✭✭✭carolmon


    Facebook group Show of Support

    White Balloon Action
    Write the name of your town on a white balloon and take a photo of it in front of a sign or landmark in your town. Send it to the group to show support.
    Host: Shocked by reaction in Listowel
    Network: Global
    Date: Monday, December 21, 2009
    Time: 7:00pm - 10:00pm
    Location: Your Town
    Street: Do this when you can until we have all the towns in Ireland

    DescriptionA Positive Way to Show Support.
    Thank you to Tara and Jessie for this idea.
    Everyone is urged to write the name of their town on a white balloon and take a photo of it in front of a landmark in their town, or a sign of the name of your town. I'll post the photos on the page till we have all towns in Ireland. The person who came up with it is asking people to do it tomorrow at 7pm and release the balloons but if you can't do it then, do it when you can and send me the images through the group. Spread the word. 8,000 members and growing.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,449 ✭✭✭SuperInfinity


    Oh please!

    Get real. I believe she led him on, he was drunk out of his mind and then she went and made a big incident out of it.

    She's playing to the media, parroting away lines like she will have to live with it forever, is she MAD?! It's HIS life that is ruined.

    Give me a break. :mad:


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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,658 ✭✭✭✭The Sweeper


    Welcome to the internet.

    What you believe is irrelevant unless you can back it up with facts.

    In this case, you can't. Your word on this isn't to be accepted as God's own tears and the final say.

    And by the way - 11 posts, inflammatory comment on highly emotive thread?

    Return to troll school 101 and request a refund.


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