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Muslims asked to remove headscarves for new Garda card

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,533 ✭✭✭Jester252


    Not to sure if this had been said but on the street would a pic of muslim woman in her headscarves on the card not make it easier to match up with the real woman. I had to remove my glasses for my passport pic and everytime I'm in an airport I have to remove my glasses so they can make sure it is me.
    I do however think that when in a land you should follow their laws to a certin amount.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    When people come to this country to avail of everything this society has to offer it is only fair that they play by the rules of it and make some compromises.

    irish muslims don't exist no?


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,939 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    Jester252 wrote: »
    I do however think that when in a land you should follow their laws to a certin amount.

    I wonder has anyone been saying this to their illegal relatives in the US?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 15,914 ✭✭✭✭tbh


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Proper order. Religion is not a get out of jail free card when it comes to observing law.
    I agree with you 100%. Personal principle never trumps the law of the land, which must be observed by everyone. Like the household charge for example ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 454 ✭✭KindOfIrish


    Yakult wrote: »
    Religion is funny.
    Go to Bradford UK and say it there:eek:


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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,067 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    Go to Bradford UK and say it there:eek:

    I remember there were plans for a gay pride march in Jerusalem. Probably the fisrt time the three religious groups in the city agreed on something :)


  • Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 8,490 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fluorescence


    mishkalucy wrote: »
    Muslim women are not forced to wear Hijab, the the Quran states that there is no compulsion within the religion to wear it(2:256). They wear it to be seen as modest women. If a woman who had undergone chemotherapy or had alopecia wanted to wear a headscarf for this photo I.D would it be allowed?
    I have no problem with their religious beliefs and believe everyone has the right to their religion but on this occasion feel that the hijab should be removed for the short period of time it would take for the photo to be taken


    That's something that really bothers me too. The Quran only states women must dress modestly (which is fair enough, tbh). The hijab and niqab are cultural traditions, not religious practise. So there's no need for them to be exempt on the grounds of religion.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,299 ✭✭✭✭later12


    Pataman wrote: »
    They should be made remove it. If they are stopped at the side of the road the garda has no way of checking fingerprints.
    The GNIB card is not an ID card. Banks are not even allowed to accept it as ID. It clearly states on the card "This is not an ID card".

    You don't have to prove to random Gardai in the street that you are resident or have leave to remain in Ireland. If your identity needs to be established on the street, it can be done so by providing a passport which will also contain any relevant visas.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 237 ✭✭Old Tom


    hondasam wrote: »
    Is wearing a balaclava part of non Muslim culture ?
    If I go to Muslim countries I respect their culture. If they come to my place, I expect them to respect mine.

    As simple as that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,067 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    That's something that really bothers me too. The Quran only states women must dress modestly (which is fair enough, tbh). The hijab and niqab are cultural traditions, not religious practise. So there's no need for them to be exempt on the grounds of religion.

    I guess you'd best tell the 1.6 billion adherents of Islam that they got it wrong. ;)

    Remember, in Christianity there are many traditions which aren't mentioned it the gospels. It's the same in Islam.Many of the rules that are followed were developed afterwards. One of the biggest sources for Islam are the hadiths. These are stories about the prophet. Some are known to be true some are 4th hand stories that can't be verified. Whereas in Christianity the same can't be said and even the basics facts of Jesus life are in dispute.

    But none the less, a lot of christian tradition comes from stuff like the acts of the apostles and the works of saints and scholars later on. take xmas day and easter for example.
    They are however deeply rooted in Christian tradition and are very much a part of the religion. The same goes for the hijab. Even if it's not mentioned specifically in the Koran, there are other sources and it is now an important part of their religion.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,299 ✭✭✭✭later12


    Old Tom wrote: »
    If I go to Muslim countries I respect their culture. If they come to my place, I expect them to respect mine.

    As simple as that.
    Hijab free GNIB cards are your "culture"?


  • Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 8,490 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fluorescence


    Grayson wrote: »
    I guess you'd best tell the 1.6 billion adherents of Islam that they got it wrong. ;)

    Remember, in Christianity there are many traditions which aren't mentioned it the gospels. It's the same in Islam.Many of the rules that are followed were developed afterwards. One of the biggest sources for Islam are the hadiths. These are stories about the prophet. Some are known to be true some are 4th hand stories that can't be verified. Whereas in Christianity the same can't be said and even the basics facts of Jesus life are in dispute.

    But none the less, a lot of christian tradition comes from stuff like the acts of the apostles and the works of saints and scholars later on. take xmas day and easter for example.
    They are however deeply rooted in Christian tradition and are very much a part of the religion. The same goes for the hijab. Even if it's not mentioned specifically in the Koran, there are other sources and it is now an important part of their religion.

    Fair enough.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,866 ✭✭✭irishconvert


    mishkalucy wrote: »
    Muslim women are not forced to wear Hijab, the the Quran states that there is no compulsion within the religion to wear it(2:256).
    Incorrect, Muslim women must wear hijab, i.e. cover their hair. I think this article explains it well...
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/beliefs/hijab_1.shtml
    I have no problem respecting people and their culture/religion, be it what it is. But it's annoying that the rules would not be bent if I was in a muslim country. But it is expected that rules are broken here or else "discrimination and racism" is shouted out.
    If you go to many Muslim countries, you are allowed to drink alcohol although it is against Islam. So they are accommodating your culture.
    When people come to this country to avail of everything this society has to offer it is only fair that they play by the rules of it and make some compromises.
    Why do you assume all Muslims are not Irish? I am Irish, my daughter is Irish. What if she wants to wear hijab? Will you bend the rules for her as she is Irish?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,866 ✭✭✭irishconvert


    Old Tom wrote: »
    If I go to Muslim countries I respect their culture. If they come to my place, I expect them to respect mine.

    As simple as that.

    What Muslim countries have you been to?

    If you say you respected their culture then you must have:
    - Abstained from alcohol for the entire duration of your visit
    - Did not take off your t-shirt or wear shorts above your knee in public, this includes your hotel swimming pool
    - Did not eat any pork products

    Is this the case?

    The county you were in most likely made exceptions for you and tourists like you, you would be allowed to do any of the above. But if you respect their culture as you say you do, then you wouldn't have.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,410 ✭✭✭old_aussie


    dlofnep wrote: »
    No, we don't live in a fascist state. We also don't allow religion as an excuse to bypass laws and regulations. That has nothing to do with fascism I'm afraid. The law of the land is above all. If you don't respect the law of the land, you're not obliged to live here.

    That's exactly right, why should I have to sit a certain way in public due to some religious crap.

    Religion has no place in public, where the law prevails.

    They can do what the like in the privacy of their own homes or church/moske etc.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    old_aussie wrote: »
    That's exactly right, why should I have to sit a certain way in public due to some religious crap.

    ..............

    ...sez the man who deliberatly provokes minorities.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,080 ✭✭✭sheesh


    Heres a thought for you all

    I could spend months growing a fabulous beard are saying that i would have to shave it off for this id card?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    If you go to many Muslim countries, you are allowed to drink alcohol although it is against Islam. So they are accommodating your culture.

    Ah now come on they absolutely do not accommodate other cultures. Western women are expected to dress conservatively and cover up.

    If your a Christian you can not have a crucifix visible.

    Drinking is done in the home and not public houses.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Bullseye1 wrote: »
    Ah now come on they absolutely do not accommodate other cultures. Western women are expected to dress conservatively and cover up.

    If your a Christian you can not have a crucifix visible.

    Drinking is done in the home and not public houses.

    ...where?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,671 ✭✭✭PhoenixParker


    It's quite simple.

    There is a rule - your head should be clearly visible in the photograph and unobstructed by glasses, headbands, hats. etc.
    Leaving aside any religious beliefs, the rule is either necessary or unnecessary.

    To make a good visual ID from a photograph, what is the best system?
    I would argue that the best system is for everybody to provide a photo that clearly shows their face and head, unobstructed by any adornments.

    Since we've worked out the goal of the photo, and the requirements for it to meet that goal, religious beliefs are utterly irrelevant. You don't get to provide a substandard photo simply because you have a religious belief about head coverings. The photo needs to provide a clear unobstructed view of the face and head, and should do that without regard to religious beliefs.

    On the other hand, you might decide that photos don't need to be of such high standards. A visual ID is perfectly possible when the photographed faces and heads are masked by certain levels of adornments, e.g. glasses, hats, hoodies or hijabs.

    If that is the case then anyone who wishes to provide a photo within the requisite guidelines should be allowed to do so, whatever their reason. If the goal of providing a photo is met when you're wearing a hijab, then it's also met when I'm wearing a hoodie. There is no need to allow for a religious differentiation.

    The rule should be for everyone, or no one. Religion shouldn't be brought into it.


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  • Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,073 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    Chances are they'll be wearing the Hijab in public at all times, so it makes more sense for them to wear it in the photo.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,067 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    The rule should be for everyone, or no one. Religion shouldn't be brought into it.

    I can see you've thought that out. So by your thinking, all women in saudi should wear a burka and do exactly whatever a man tells them. Because it's the law. The rule is there for everyone. And it really doesn't even matter what religion/culture they're from.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,671 ✭✭✭PhoenixParker


    No. Saudi has a very different system for making laws to us. Their legal system is based on islamic religious law. Our legal system is based on democracy, individual freedom and individual rights.

    What they do is completely irrelevant to what we do. Tit for tat law making or comparison's are simply ridiculous.

    We make rules for our citizens based on our needs as a society. Generally speaking we try to make them as few, as unrestrictive and as equal as possible. The rules we make are to achieve a specific outcome be it big (don't kill people) or small (provide a photo that meets these guidelines so we can identify you).

    The rule either is necessary or it isn't. If it's necessary, it should apply to everyone, we're equal citizens of a democracy. If it's not then it needs to be revisited. Allowing little loopholes here and there for religion is to my mind lazy practice. Get to the heart of the rule and the problem that's arising and if it's appropriate fix that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,053 ✭✭✭BornToKill


    This is supposed to be a secular state, and personally I think anyone's religious perferences/dictates should take second place to that.

    When did that happen? I totally didn't get that memo. Ever looked through the constitution?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 237 ✭✭Old Tom


    later12 wrote: »
    Hijab free GNIB cards are your "culture"?
    Where did I say that? Does obsessive "tolerance" completely blind you?
    My culture is NOT to cover the face, as it is reserved mostly for criminals.

    End of story in this thread, first of all - it's not gonna end well. Second of all - it's pointless.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,866 ✭✭✭irishconvert


    Bullseye1 wrote: »
    If you go to many Muslim countries, you are allowed to drink alcohol although it is against Islam. So they are accommodating your culture.

    Ah now come on they absolutely do not accommodate other cultures. Western women are expected to dress conservatively and cover up.

    If your a Christian you can not have a crucifix visible.

    Drinking is done in the home and not public houses.

    You have not been to Egypt. Malaysia or Turkey then.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,336 ✭✭✭wendell borton


    Why do you assume all Muslims are not Irish? I am Irish, my daughter is Irish. What if she wants to wear hijab? Will you bend the rules for her as she is Irish?

    The law should be blind irrespective of nationality, faith or ethnicisity.


  • Registered Users Posts: 174 ✭✭DonQuay1


    hondasam wrote: »
    Is wearing a balaclava part of non Muslim culture ?


    Wearing Balaclava: In certain parts of Ireland and under certain conditions it is part of non-muslim culture.

    Wearing headscarf: In certain parts of the World and under certain conditions it is part of muslim culture.

    Is that ok? :)

    As already stated - no use taking a photo for an ID card if you can only see the eyes. (And yes - I'd be of the opinion that hair should be exposed too. It's a very distinguishing feature after all - as are the ears.) For example, say if you were a ginger (I love Gingers!) - wouldn't it be relavent?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    DonQuay1 wrote: »
    Wearing Balaclava: In certain parts of Ireland and under certain conditions it is part of non-muslim culture.

    Wearing headscarf: In certain parts of the World and under certain conditions it is part of muslim culture.

    Is that ok? :)

    As already stated - no use taking a photo for an ID card if you can only see the eyes. (And yes - I'd be of the opinion that hair should be exposed too. It's a very distinguishing feature after all - as are the ears.) For example, say if you were a ginger (I love Gingers!) - wouldn't it be relavent?

    Nobody has suggested that only the eyes be visible.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    You have not been to Egypt. Malaysia or Turkey then.

    I have actually. How about Iran, Iraq, Syari, SA, Dubai, Pakistan etc.


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