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TV set with DVB-T2 and DVB-S2

13

Comments

  • #62
    daithi7
    Registered Users Posts: 1,292 ✭✭✭daithi7


    Stb, Champion and all those disaffected by Panasonic non-saorview compliant Sets,

    I have corresponded with Simon Parkinson the Panasonic head of service in the UK (for Europe) detailing the issue(s) as well as I could manage. In fairness to Simon, he says he is escalating the issue to their factory and that he will revert to me when they have done a 'fairly exhaustive' check to see if anything can be done. He did say that this could take some time also.

    I will await Simon's reply and will revert to the board here when and if there is any progress on my end. If anyone is dealing with Panasonic sales for anything else in the meantime it would be no harm to mention this issue and the fact that analogue is being switched off and the horrendous implications for the Panasonic brand in Ireland and NI.

    Hope this gets the desired response and action from Panasonic!!

    Daithi


  • #63
    daithi7
    Registered Users Posts: 1,292 ✭✭✭daithi7


    PLEASE FIND EMAIL I SENT TO PANASONIC BELOW WHICH CAN BE EDITED BY ANYONE WHO WISHES TO CONTACT THEM TO HIGHLIGHT THE ISSUE


    Dear ,

    Following our call today, Dominic from your support team called me, but with an unsatisfactory response :

    Just to clarify , I purchased two Panasonic LCD screens in 2009 (Model No: TX-37 LZD81) . I bought these tvs as they have a MPeg4 tuner, DVB-T and Freesat HD. The TVs actually worked on the trial Digital Terrestial 'Saorview' service for about a year. They then stopped working and they cannot scan the channels now. If they are already tuned in to the channel they do actually receive the channels so it should be not be a big issue to issue a firmware upgrade for them to work fully with the Irish Soarview broadcasts. (i.e. to be able to tune in on a channel scan and have MHegs working also)

    The reason it doesn't decode MPEG4 now is because it would seem that the LZD81 is not FULLY DVB compliant as per RTENL's broadcast changes. It appears that the reason that the TV no longer works is because it does not recognise the service type which has been changed from 0x01 to 0x16 ,22(0x16) which does not appear to be defined in the firmware. This means that the TV is NOT COMPLIANT with the DVB standard.

    Can you kindly let me know if and when you intend to release a firmware upgrade to enable these tvs to tune into Irish broadcast channels?

    If you do not intend to release a firmware upgrade can you kindly explain how Panasonic can be seen as a premium brand in Ireland when it no longer supports its customers?

    Other manufacturers such as Sony have been superb in supporting the transition to Saorview.

    The Panasonic TVs were openly on sale through Argos in the Republic of Ireland and should be supported when there is an obvious problem .

    From your website, you obviously have a presence here in Dublin, and I would expect you to be able to support issues like this :

    "Based in Dublin, Panasonic Ireland provide a sales, marketing and service for Panasonic's range of both consumer electronics and business systems. The company employs about 20 people."

    As I pointed out to Dominic , I am not the only disgruntled person to buy a Panasonic product (there are 4 in the range effected) to find that it doesn't comply with the DVB standard. If you have a look at

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055542668&page=3
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056079528,
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=76745994
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056096032


    You will see that there is quite a bit of discussion on this issue here and this does not look good for the excellent reputation that the Panasonic brand has had in Ireland to date.

    If I were the service or marketing manager for the brand in Ireland I would want to resolve these issues ASAP, as it could avert a potentially shocking negative PR event series for Panasonic perhaps undoing years of marketing and service spend. When analogue signals are turned off in Ireland later this year, negative Panasonic weblinks appearing because of lack of support could have devastating impacts for the brand in Ireland for many years to come. What consumer would you honestly expect to ever buy a Panasonic TV set or related again?

    I appreciate you taking the time to help resolve this problem and I am eagerly awaiting your response, as I know many other Panasonic customers and potential customers are also.

    Yours sincerely,


  • #64
    championc
    Registered Users Posts: 6,053 ✭✭✭championc


    First off, congrats on your efforts and you've certainly got further than anyone else has ever managed to do. However, I feel you may have over complicated things which will be enough to send him running for cover
    daithi7 wrote: »
    They then stopped working and they cannot scan the channels now. If they are already tuned in to the channel they do actually receive the channels so it should be not be a big issue to issue a firmware upgrade for them to work fully with the Irish Soarview broadcasts. (i.e. to be able to tune in on a channel scan and have MHegs working also)

    The reason it doesn't decode MPEG4 now is because it would seem that the LZD81 is not FULLY DVB compliant as per RTENL's broadcast changes. It appears that the reason that the TV no longer works is because it does not recognise the service type which has been changed from 0x01 to 0x16 ,22(0x16) which does not appear to be defined in the firmware. This means that the TV is NOT COMPLIANT with the DVB standard.

    I think you should re-write this section because you are mis-representing things - against yourself. I think it's very important to point out that the TV's WILL fully decode the MPEG4 broadcasts and the only reason you lost your channels was simply because you did a re-scan of stations. If you got a copy of the scanned channels (hotel file) and restored them into your TV, you'd have the channels back again (albeit with newer ones missing)

    The error is PURELY in Scanning and Storing of channels. The TV is looking for channels with the Codec Flag set to 0x01 whereas the Irish Channels are set to 0x16.


    So for Panasonic, the solution is very simple. They simply should allow the Scanning to see Codec Flags of 0x01 OR 0x16 (and 0x19 too ??). It really is that simple and you should push this point whereas you have made out that there is possibly a combination of issues.

    It is also very important to point out to Panasonic that allowing the other Flags to be Scanned will have no effect whatsoever of the functionality of the sets and so, will not affect any UK consumers.

    Hope this helps


  • #65
    STB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    championc wrote: »
    So for Panasonic, the solution is very simple. They simply should allow the Scanning to see Codec Flags of 0x01 OR 0x16 (and 0x19 too ??). It really is that simple and you should push this point whereas you have made out that there is possibly a combination of issues.

    It is also very important to point out to Panasonic that allowing the other Flags to be Scanned will have no effect whatsoever of the functionality of the sets and so, will not affect any UK consumers.

    Hope this helps

    Unless the Service types are defined in the firmware of the television, it will not pick it up in a scan. The only that they reason the television should have this response is if it is outside the capabilities of the television, which is not the case. MPEG2 receivers would therefore not show the MPEG4 results in a scan as it outside their technical capability.

    In this case the television has an MPEG4 processor on board that handles dvb-t broadcasts, both SD and HD MPEG4. These TVs have the H264 processor on board in order to decipher the MPEG4 brioadcasts for Freesat HD which broadcast using the MPEG4 H264 codec in DVB-S2.

    What was defined in the DVB service types for the panasonic was

    MPEG-2 profiles for SD type video uses service_type 1 (0x01),

    But the TV should also allow for the scanning of:

    H.264/AVC profiles for SD type video uses service type 22 (0x16),

    H.264/AVC profiles for HD type video uses service type 25 (0x19).

    If they are defined in the software then they will clear fine.


  • #66
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,324 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Even if the TV cannot decode the signals, all that will happen is that the screen will be blank. That is what happens with MPEG 2 sets, like my Sony.

    There is no problem for anyone by decoding the signals that cannot be processed.


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  • #67
    daithi7
    Registered Users Posts: 1,292 ✭✭✭daithi7


    championc wrote: »
    First off, congrats on your efforts and you've certainly got further than anyone else has ever managed to do. However, I feel you may have over complicated things which will be enough to send him running for cover
    daithi7 wrote: »
    They then stopped working and they cannot scan the channels now. If they are already tuned in to the channel they do actually receive the channels so it should be not be a big issue to issue a firmware upgrade for them to work fully with the Irish Soarview broadcasts. (i.e. to be able to tune in on a channel scan and have MHegs working also)

    The reason it doesn't decode MPEG4 now is because it would seem that the LZD81 is not FULLY DVB compliant as per RTENL's broadcast changes. It appears that the reason that the TV no longer works is because it does not recognise the service type which has been changed from 0x01 to 0x16 ,22(0x16) which does not appear to be defined in the firmware. This means that the TV is NOT COMPLIANT with the DVB standard.

    I think you should re-write this section because you are mis-representing things - against yourself. I think it's very important to point out that the TV's WILL fully decode the MPEG4 broadcasts and the only reason you lost your channels was simply because you did a re-scan of stations. If you got a copy of the scanned channels (hotel file) and restored them into your TV, you'd have the channels back again (albeit with newer ones missing)

    The error is PURELY in Scanning and Storing of channels. The TV is looking for channels with the Codec Flag set to 0x01 whereas the Irish Channels are set to 0x16.


    So for Panasonic, the solution is very simple. They simply should allow the Scanning to see Codec Flags of 0x01 OR 0x16 (and 0x19 too ??). It really is that simple and you should push this point whereas you have made out that there is possibly a combination of issues.

    It is also very important to point out to Panasonic that allowing the other Flags to be Scanned will have no effect whatsoever of the functionality of the sets and so, will not affect any UK consumers.

    Hope this helps

    Champion and Stb & Others,

    Thanks for your replies which are very helpful. Unfortunately I'm at the limit of my knowledge of the issue and its solution now, so if either of ye or both, would redraft my email to Panasonic (posted above), and post the redraft back here, I will forward this as an addendum to the head of service in Panasonic.

    I think this could be useful as you point out:
    1. It will define the issue more clearly for them
    2. It will show that there is a working network of disgruntled Panasonic customers working on this.
    3. It will act as a useful template for others who may wish to write to them or email them
    Look forward to your post(s)
    Daithi


  • #68
    championc
    Registered Users Posts: 6,053 ✭✭✭championc


    Hi all, what do you think of this ??

    Hi Simon,

    Further to my last email, I'd like to clarify the situation relating to the compatibility of the Panasonic LZD81 TV's (and maybe some others) in the Irish marketplace. My technical knowledge is somewhat limited, especially when it comes to detailed technical details. However, with the assistance of some colleagues, I wish to reconfirm the problem and hopefully confirm the simplicity of the effort required to resolve the issue.

    Contrary to my previous email, I'm delighted to confirm that all of the Panasonic TV's in question are perfectly able to Fully decode the Irish MPEG4 transmissions. The problem appears simply to be with Scanning of channels.

    It would appear that these Panasonic models are programmed to look for MPEG-2 profiles for SD type video using service_type 1 (0x01) as per the D-Book standard. The Irish Saorview trial used this too and proud Panasonic owners tuned in, in their hundreds, until about 03 Nov 2010 when Ireland then adopted the full DVB-T specs of H.264/AVC profiles for SD type video using service type 22 (0x16) and H.264/AVC profiles for HD type video using service type 25 (0x19).

    The Panasonics continued working for another while until an additional station was added to the EPG. The TV's sensed the new channel and offerred to re-scan the channels but then, the TV's, looking only for the 0x01 service_type, have now simply ignored the Irish Channels.

    So the solution is simple. The only change required is to change the part of the Firmware which controls the channel scanning and to modify it to allow it to see channels with service_types of 0x01, 0x16 and 0x19.

    There are many Panasonic owners who had copies of their channels on Hotel Files and so, were able to re-instate the channels back to before the re-scan. These people just now have to live without the newer channel(s).


    Kindest Regards etc.......


  • #69
    Jtdeenihan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7 ✭Jtdeenihan


    Hey I'm new to boards so excuse my initial incompetence. I am looking to purchase the Panasonic Tx-p42gt30b it has great features and gets good reviews.

    http://www.panasonic.co.uk/html/en_GB/Products/VIERA+Flat+Screen+TV/2011+Plasma+TV/TX-P42GT30B/Overview/7037486/index.html

    However I can get the upgraded VT model Tx-p42vt30e on pixmania for the same price

    http://www.pixmania.ie/ie/uk/11199797/art/panasonic/tx-p42vt30e-3d-plasma-scr.html

    so I am encouraged to go for that. However it is the e model instead of the b model I can purchase in store. It is my understanding b is for British and e for European. I also don't get the 5 year warranty which I would get in store. My main query is what is the difference between the b and e model. I read these Panasonic tvs don't have mheg 5 tuners anyway so are not fully saorview compatible and the tech spec is exactly the same between them as far as my eyes can tell.

    Am I better off purchasing the VT model on pixmania even though it's a European model?

    Thanks

    JT


  • #70
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Unless it's on this list don't buy it for use in Ireland:
    http://www.saorview.ie/products-retailers/saorview-approved-product-listings/

    Manufacturer's warranty may sound good, but your contract is with the retailer who is liable for damages up to 6 years and repair or replacement entirely at their cost for any defects or mis-selling for over 2 years.


  • #71
    Jtdeenihan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7 ✭Jtdeenihan


    watty wrote: »
    Unless it's on this list don't buy it for use in Ireland:
    http://www.saorview.ie/products-retailers/saorview-approved-product-listings/

    Manufacturer's warranty may sound good, but your contract is with the retailer who is liable for damages up to 6 years and repair or replacement entirely at their cost for any defects or mis-selling for over 2 years.


    Thanks for your reply watty. I had checked out that list alright and seen neither tv. I know they get the saorview channels but unsure about mheg 5.

    My main query though is there a risk in purchasing the 'e' European model over the 'b' british model which is sold in most stores in Ireland. Like I said it is much better value for money and if even the 'b' model isn't saorview approved surely there wouldn't be much difference no??


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  • #72
    championc
    Registered Users Posts: 6,053 ✭✭✭championc


    My understanding is that this TV has BOTH a DVB-T2 and a DVB-S2 tuner. On a British Model, you will have full access to the "Freesat" system which will include Red Button access. A European model will just have the generic "Satellite" receiver.

    In addition, a UK model with decode MHEG5 whereas the European model will be doing MHP. So definitely go the UK model route 100%.

    And as for certification, you'll get many people on here telling you that it's OK to go with DVB-T2 products but don't mention the war when it comes to Panasonic. However, there are no shortage of G20B (the GT30 predecessor) owners who are deleriously happy with their Panny's. The 30B's will always be 90% compatible but will never be able to do stuff like an RTE iPlayer but hey, get yourself a UK Proxy and you can enjoy BBC iPlayer on these babies !!!

    Cue the abuse from Watty & Co.


  • #73
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    If the European version has CI+ then it has MHEG5

    If you buy it for Saorview (i.e. Irish DTT) and it's not Saorview certified and it's clearly for another market then your Warranty is almost worthless if you have a problem.


  • #74
    Jtdeenihan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7 ✭Jtdeenihan


    championc wrote: »
    My understanding is that this TV has BOTH a DVB-T2 and a DVB-S2 tuner. On a British Model, you will have full access to the "Freesat" system which will include Red Button access. A European model will just have the generic "Satellite" receiver.

    In addition, a UK model with decode MHEG5 whereas the European model will be doing MHP. So definitely go the UK model route 100%.

    And as for certification, you'll get many people on here telling you that it's OK to go with DVB-T2 products but don't mention the war when it comes to Panasonic. However, there are no shortage of G20B (the GT30 predecessor) owners who are deleriously happy with their Panny's. The 30B's will always be 90% compatible but will never be able to do stuff like an RTE iPlayer but hey, get yourself a UK Proxy and you can enjoy BBC iPlayer on these babies !!!

    Cue the abuse from Watty & Co.

    Thanks I don't think I would be too fussed about the red button features on the British freesat system. I would be prepared to lose that to gain the addition features on the VT model.

    However I am confused about what you say the European model will be doing MHP what does this mean/ do. Additionally I emailed a store in dublin which said these tvs don't have MHEG5 tuners. Is there any way to find out for sure. MHEG 5 never appears in the tech spec (is this because they don't have it or just didn't bother mentioning).

    Thanks for the tip on the bbc iplayer must look into that when I purchase!!

    JT


  • #75
    Jtdeenihan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7 ✭Jtdeenihan


    watty wrote: »
    If the European version has CI+ then it has MHEG5

    If you buy it for Saorview (i.e. Irish DTT) and it's not Saorview certified and it's clearly for another market then your Warranty is almost worthless if you have a problem.


    CI+? I ahev never head of this. This is different to Common Interface yeah! How would I check if the european model has this.

    Thanks again for your opinions!

    JT


  • #76
    championc
    Registered Users Posts: 6,053 ✭✭✭championc


    Jtdeenihan wrote: »
    Thanks I don't think I would be too fussed about the red button features on the British freesat system

    Are you sure ? And I'm not sure if you can get BBC HD or BBC One HD via the Satellite tuner simply - the Freesat tuner gives you a full 24 x 7 EPG. It's also brilliant if you connect a USB Hard Disk to the TV for recording onto. You can pick a program right off the EPG and add it to the Timer for recording while you are out.

    As for the MHEG5, I rarely use Teletext. But if the UK model is the same price as a Euro one, get the B model. In fact, as far as I know, there were models in the past where the B had dual tuners whereas the E had just one.


    C


  • #77
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,324 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Are you sure the **VT30E model has a sat tuner. It is not mentioned on the Pixmania site and the G30B model had a sat tuner but the **G30E did not.

    So be careful. Get confirmation of the exact spec.


  • #78
    STB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    championc wrote: »
    Are you sure ? And I'm not sure if you can get BBC HD or BBC One HD via the Satellite tuner simply - the Freesat tuner gives you a full 24 x 7 EPG. It's also brilliant if you connect a USB Hard Disk to the TV for recording onto. You can pick a program right off the EPG and add it to the Timer for recording while you are out.

    As for the MHEG5, I rarely use Teletext. But if the UK model is the same price as a Euro one, get the B model. In fact, as far as I know, there were models in the past where the B had dual tuners whereas the E had just one.


    C

    Em you do realise what the mheg5 freesat functionality does. It is doing retuning in the background and hyperlinking to the streams that are openly broadcast. The Freesat software API also ensures 7 day epg on satellite.

    Of course BBC HD and BBC 1 HD/ red button services etc are tunable without freesat software.

    @JTdeenihan - you need to read this thread


  • #79
    championc
    Registered Users Posts: 6,053 ✭✭✭championc


    OK, so if a TV has Freesat, this means it has MHEG5 - yes ?


  • #80
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    yes, but it doesn't mean it's Saorview or Saorsat compatible at all.

    Freeview, Freesat (in native modes), Saorview and CI+ all must have MHEG5 engine to be certified.


  • #81
    Jtdeenihan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7 ✭Jtdeenihan


    Thanks for the replies, I ended up going with the 42g30, richersounds.ie were able to match a really appealing price on pixmania plus I got the 'b' model. Still unsure about the MHEG5 capabilities, TV arrives on Tuesday so I'll check it out. I'm looking to buy the new triax combo box when it becomes available soon so that will have full saorview anyway and will also solve my freesat requirement.


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  • #82
    zg3409
    Registered Users Posts: 6,546 ✭✭✭zg3409


    Off topic but the new triax unit may not be all that great. It's another thread but there should be 2 or three combo boxes before october.

    Best to wait until as late as possible, but at least wait a few weeks for proper reviews and comparison to the different options


  • #83
    championc
    Registered Users Posts: 6,053 ✭✭✭championc


    daithi7 wrote: »
    Champion and Stb & Others,

    Thanks for your replies which are very helpful. Unfortunately I'm at the limit of my knowledge of the issue and its solution now, so if either of ye or both, would redraft my email to Panasonic (posted above), and post the redraft back here, I will forward this as an addendum to the head of service in Panasonic.

    I think this could be useful as you point out:
    1. It will define the issue more clearly for them
    2. It will show that there is a working network of disgruntled Panasonic customers working on this.
    3. It will act as a useful template for others who may wish to write to them or email them
    Look forward to your post(s)
    Daithi

    Hey Daithi

    How did you get on ?


    C


  • #84
    daithi7
    Registered Users Posts: 1,292 ✭✭✭daithi7


    championc wrote: »
    daithi7 wrote: »
    Champion and Stb & Others,

    Thanks for your replies which are very helpful. Unfortunately I'm at the limit of my knowledge of the issue and its solution now, so if either of ye or both, would redraft my email to Panasonic (posted above), and post the redraft back here, I will forward this as an addendum to the head of service in Panasonic.

    I think this could be useful as you point out:
    1. It will define the issue more clearly for them
    2. It will show that there is a working network of disgruntled Panasonic customers working on this.
    3. It will act as a useful template for others who may wish to write to them or email them
    Look forward to your post(s)
    Daithi

    Hey Daithi

    How did you get on ?


    C

    Hi,

    I sent a further email to Simon Parkinson at Panasonic, cc to a colleague also, and I am holding off until next week to follow up on this, as he did say a query 'with the factory' would take some time.

    Apologies, I thought I had updated the board w progress, but maybe my link dropped during upload.

    I'll let ye know in next week on progress.

    all the best,
    Daithi


  • #85
    daithi7
    Registered Users Posts: 1,292 ✭✭✭daithi7


    daithi7 wrote: »
    championc wrote: »
    daithi7 wrote: »
    Champion and Stb & Others,

    Thanks for your replies which are very helpful. Unfortunately I'm at the limit of my knowledge of the issue and its solution now, so if either of ye or both, would redraft my email to Panasonic (posted above), and post the redraft back here, I will forward this as an addendum to the head of service in Panasonic.

    I think this could be useful as you point out:
    1. It will define the issue more clearly for them
    2. It will show that there is a working network of disgruntled Panasonic customers working on this.
    3. It will act as a useful template for others who may wish to write to them or email them
    Look forward to your post(s)
    Daithi

    Hey Daithi

    How did you get on ?


    C

    Hi,

    I sent a further email to Simon Parkinson at Panasonic, cc to a colleague also, and I am holding of until next week to follow up as he did say query 'with the factory' would take some time.

    Apologies, I thought I had updated the board w progress, but maybe my link dropped during upload.

    I'll let ye know in next week on progress.

    all the best,
    Daithi

    This is the text of the 2nd email to Simon Parkinson, head of Service Western Europe at Panasonic.

    Hi Simon,

    Further to my previous emails, I have consulted with many other Panasonic TV customers who are having the same issues with their sets. This relates to the inability of the Panasonic LZD81 TV's (and maybe other sets) to be able to tune into Irish Digital Terrestial TV ('Saorview'). I am emailing you to better define the problem and hopefully better outline what is required to resolve the issue.

    The Problem: the Panasonic TV's in question are able to Fully decode the Irish MPEG4 transmissions. The problemappears simply to be with Scanning of Channels.  It would appear that these Panasonic models are programmed to look for MPEG-2 profiles for SD type video using service_type 1 (0x01) as per the D-Book standard. The Irish 'Saorview' trial initially used this too and all Panasonic Mpeg4 TVs in Ireland tuned in.   Then in early November 2010, Ireland then adopted the full DVB-T specs of H.264/AVC profiles for SD type video using service type 22 (0x16) and H.264/AVC profiles for HD type video using service type 25 (0x19). The Panasonic sets continued viewing the existing DTT channels for another while, until an additional station was added to the EPG. The TV's sensed the new channel and offerred to re-scan the channels but then, the TV's, looking only for the 0x01 service_type, simply ignored the Irish TV Channels.

    So the solution is simple. The only change required is to change the part of the Firmware which controls the channel scanning and to modify it to allow it to see channels with service_types of 0x01, 0x16 and 0x19.

    There are some Panasonic owners who have copies of their channels on Hotel Files and so are able to re-instate some channels back to before the re-scan. This involves a lot of bother and they must do without any new channel(s) or services in perpetuity as they cannot rescan without losing all the channel settings. Others are so frustrated that they are attempting hacks on the Panasonic firmware themselves. None of this looks good for Panasonic in Ireland & NI, as you can imagine. Irish analogue TV broadcasting is due to be switched off in Ireland in September 2012. If Panasonic can reissue a firmware upgrade that would allow for proper scanning of the DTT 'Saorview' channels before this, it would avert a major own goal for Panasonic, and may even encourage greater brand loyalty for new TVs, HDRs & Av kit, etc going forward and into the years ahead. Failing to do so may tarnish the brand for a long time hence.

      As ever I look forward to seeing progress on this issue and look forward to hearing from you in due course.

      Best regards,


  • #86
    daithi7
    Registered Users Posts: 1,292 ✭✭✭daithi7


    championc wrote: »
    daithi7 wrote: »
    Champion and Stb & Others,

    Thanks for your replies which are very helpful. Unfortunately I'm at the limit of my knowledge of the issue and its solution now, so if either of ye or both, would redraft my email to Panasonic (posted above), and post the redraft back here, I will forward this as an addendum to the head of service in Panasonic.

    I think this could be useful as you point out:
    1. It will define the issue more clearly for them
    2. It will show that there is a working network of disgruntled Panasonic customers working on this.
    3. It will act as a useful template for others who may wish to write to them or email them
    Look forward to your post(s)
    Daithi

    Hey Daithi

    How did you get on ?


    C

    Latest email from Simon Parkinson, looks like we'll get a yay or nay in the next few days. As he says, their on-line team may post directly here.

    David,  I asked for an update this morning actually as I have been in Japan for a while  We have had an update from the factory into our AV team, they are going to give me their feedback tomorrow   When I have it I will mail you, but our online engagement team will likely post straight to the forum  Regards  Simon 


  • #87
    daithi7
    Registered Users Posts: 1,292 ✭✭✭daithi7


    daithi7 wrote: »
    Latest email from Simon Parkinson, looks like we'll get a yay or nay in the next few days. As he says, their on-line team may post directly here.

    David,  I asked for an update this morning actually as I have been in Japan for a while  We have had an update from the factory into our AV team, they are going to give me their feedback tomorrow   When I have it I will mail you, but our online engagement team will likely post straight to the forum  Regards  Simon 

    Hi Folks,

    As you will see from this thread I tried to get a positive response from Panasonic on the channel scanning issue (scanning of saroview channels on Mp4 enabled tvs). This is the latest (& last) response from them on this, which is a pfo unfortunately:

    'Dear Mr X,

    Thank you for your emails relating to this query. Your email has been passed to the undersigned for a response on behalf of Simon Parkinson - Head of Service - North West Europe. Simon has asked me to conduct a full investigation into your enquiry.

    Having investigated with all relevant departments, please note the following in addition to the statement released by Panasonic in 2009

    Some customers have purchased the LZD81B even though it is not designed for the Republic of Ireland market, based on the information that it was able to receive the test transmission. At no point has Panasonic UK advertised or marketed these sets as Saorview approved, or stated that the sets will work in the Republic of Ireland.

    The service types that Saorview are using were not part of the TV’s original design specification, as they were not required to be compliant with the UK DVB market.

    There is no intention to provide firmware updates to enable functionality that was never intended for these models. We have however launched our 2012 models which have Saorview approval.

    For those customers who wish to view saorview on a Panasonic unit that is not compatible, we would advise purchasing a Saorview approved set-top box.

    I understand that our conclusions may not be met with your approval, but trust that it clarifies Panasonic's position regarding this matter.

    Whilst I am aware that you may post this information on the Boards.IE forum, of which I have no problem with. Out of respect for privacy and in accordance to the forums policy please refrain from posting either names or internal email addresses on a public forum.

    I have included a copy of the statement that we released in June 2009.


    Statement released 06/2009:-

    Panasonic has received a number of communications from customers residing in the Republic of Ireland concerning the functionality of Freesat and Freeview compliant products. As our customers are aware, these products are not sold in the Republic of Ireland. We do, however, market a range of products which are suitable for use in the Republic of Ireland.

    Customer queries have primarily been on the capability of these Freesat and Freeview sets to receive the RTE free to air Irish DTT test transmissions. Our Freeview products, imported from the UK and Northern Ireland, received the first MPEG2 DTT test transmissions. However, as a consequence of changes to RTE’s direction with regard to test transmissions, we have been aware since mid-April 2009 that this is no longer possible.

    Given that we are not directly involved with the testing being carried out by RTE, we cannot offer any formal information regarding testing already carried or, indeed, their future plans.

    We would stress that the question of upgrading or altering the specification of Panasonic Freeview products in order to enable them to receive the altered DTT signal is more significant than just a software or firmware change, and unfortunately we have no modification available to customers who find themselves in this position. This also applies to any future specification changes that may be requested.

    We are aware that a number of entries on various customer forums discuss modification of the firmware. We would stress that action of this nature is entirely at the risk of the customer and Panasonic would neither condone nor enable such an activity for the reasons stated above.

    To clarify, the hardware and software on any Freeview compliant products have been designed for operation in the Northern Irish, and mainland UK markets. We are regrettably therefore unable to provide additional support to our customers in the Republic of Ireland who may have purchased these products.

    If the users have purchased these units expressly for DTT functionality, and it was marketed to them by the retailer from whom they purchased the unit on this basis alone, we would suggest they contact these retailers to address their issues. We have notified the dealers in the North of Ireland about our opinion on this issue, and the fact that product cannot and should not be sold to customers in Republic of Ireland for Free to Air digital TV reception.

    We would further add that Panasonic is not authorised to market Freesat models in the Republic of Ireland, nor to support the operation of the Freesat tuner by way of software or firmware upgrade.

    Of course, Panasonic is fully committed to supporting our products marketed specifically for the Republic of Ireland to ensure continued functionality, this will be dependant upon the final RTE defined format and timing of its implementation.
    We appreciate that this response may cause some disappointment to our customers. However, our position is clear with regard to DTT compliant products in the Republic of Ireland.

    Kind Regards

    Adam Neale
    Team Leader
    Online Engagement Team
    Service Group
    Panasonic UK Ltd
    Web Site: www. panasonic.co.uk


  • #88
    daithi7
    Registered Users Posts: 1,292 ✭✭✭daithi7


    This reply is a pfo from panasonic, that in effect they sold the Tvs prior to the saorview standard being finalised and that they were for use in the UK anyway & so do not offer any support for RoI customers. (which they love terming us troublesome, demanding paddies btw).

    Anyone who would like to put up a 1 page website with something like 'Panasonic Mpeg4 Tvs do not receive Irish Digital terrestial TV properly'
    or:
    'Panasonic refuse to support Irish TVs to tune into saorview'

    with a few links to this and other threads, is likely to prompt Panasonic to take action on this issue IMHO and not before time.


  • #89
    championc
    Registered Users Posts: 6,053 ✭✭✭championc


    Hi Daithi

    I think you should go back to Simon. All that someone has done here is spouted the party line, rather than really looking at this from an Engineering perspective, or really dealing in any way with the points you specifically raised.

    You have clearly demonstrated that the set has the "ability" to cope with broadcasts and you are pleading to his good nature for someone to even write a once-off special tweak in firmware to allow channel scanning to look a little bit further than the d-book spec.

    They have now proved that they understand what needs to be scanned given their "approved" sets.


    C


  • #90
    STB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    Well since this has now been posted in a public forum, I would like to offer my observations and clear up some of the complete nonsense I have just read in the response you have received, as is my opinion.

    It would seem clear that Panasonic are not interested in our small market which is a pity as I always thought their PQ was excellent.
    daithi7 wrote: »
    The service types that Saorview are using were not part of the TV’s original design specification, as they were not required to be compliant with the UK DVB market.

    And what about ETSI spec EN 300 468

    That Panasonic chose to interpret standards one way and both Sony and LG another, must mean that Panasonic were correct ?

    It is comforting to know that the specification only applied to UK and that the products are distinguisable between the two countries and that they have a spec for each. It might have escaped Panasonic's attention but Northern Ireland resides on the Island of Ireland, but those Freesat HD customers possibly didn't matter either. Please do not insult people's intelligence.

    Quite alarming then that Panasonic could make these distinctions in correspondence but to this day don't on their website as regards UK NOT Ireland.

    IE and CO.UK website (the IE redirect to the Co.UK site!).
    199974.png

    God help the consumer.
    daithi7 wrote: »
    For those customers who wish to view saorview on a Panasonic unit that is not compatible, we would advise purchasing a Saorview approved set-top box.

    So Panasonic want their loyal customers to go to the additional expense of buying a set top box despite their hardware being capable of decoding MPEG4 H264 broadcasts defined for the satellite side od these units but not defined in a simple linux definition file on the terrestrial side through short written software that doesnt define all of the ETSI DVB Service types. Lovely.
    daithi7 wrote: »
    I have included a copy of the statement that we released in June 2009.

    Statement released 06/2009:-

    Panasonic has received a number of communications from customers residing in the Republic of Ireland concerning the functionality of Freesat and Freeview compliant products. As our customers are aware, these products are not sold in the Republic of Ireland. We do, however, market a range of products which are suitable for use in the Republic of Ireland.

    These products were sold in Ireland and specifically by the Panasonic shop in Limerick as well as other major retailers.

    Again perhaps your combined IE and UK website could clear up these issues (above).
    daithi7 wrote: »
    Customer queries have primarily been on the capability of these Freesat and Freeview sets to receive the RTE free to air Irish DTT test transmissions. Our Freeview products, imported from the UK and Northern Ireland, received the first MPEG2 DTT test transmissions. However, as a consequence of changes to RTE’s direction with regard to test transmissions, we have been aware since mid-April 2009 that this is no longer possible.

    Given that we are not directly involved with the testing being carried out by RTE, we cannot offer any formal information regarding testing already carried or, indeed, their future plans.

    Lets be clear about this. The Dept of Communications & BT & RTE operated DTT Trials prior between 2006 and July 2008. These broadcasts consisted of MPEG2 and MPEG4 Broadcasts including MPEG4 HD Broadcasts.

    On 1 August 2008, RTE commenced MPEG4 H264 ONLY broadcasts from its SIX main transmitter sites around Ireland. This gradually spread across the country as the infill transmitters were rolled out. These were not trials (it was a hardware rollout) but a gradual roll out of DTT in Ireland. At no stage was an MPEG2 CODEC used. In the 1st year MPEG4 H264 SD broadcasts were flagged with an MPEG2 DVB descriptor (totally different thing). This led Panasonic consumers into believing that the TVs had basic compliance. They did not envisage the pain of learning that their €1000 TVs where effectively redundant when the correct DVB broadcast flags (and thats all they are) were applied a few months into 2009 as they discovered that a few lines of code in software were somehow omitted in Panasonic software.
    daithi7 wrote: »
    We would stress that the question of upgrading or altering the specification of Panasonic Freeview products in order to enable them to receive the altered DTT signal is more significant than just a software or firmware change, and unfortunately we have no modification available to customers who find themselves in this position. This also applies to any future specification changes that may be requested.

    The products cleared MPEG4 H264 broadcasts in 2008/9. The still do now for those fortunate enough not to retune. If the full DVB descriptors were defined it would allow for the stations to be tuned in. The hardware obviously displays the stations. The same applies to Panasonic's G10/15 range through changing the model on a HEX edit and tuning in and then reverting back to G10). Everything is possible!
    daithi7 wrote: »
    To clarify, the hardware and software on any Freeview compliant products have been designed for operation in the Northern Irish, and mainland UK markets. We are regrettably therefore unable to provide additional support to our customers in the Republic of Ireland who may have purchased these products.

    What about Northern Ireland then ? They receive overspill from Ireland, it being the one island ?
    daithi7 wrote: »
    If the users have purchased these units expressly for DTT functionality, and it was marketed to them by the retailer from whom they purchased the unit on this basis alone, we would suggest they contact these retailers to address their issues. We have notified the dealers in the North of Ireland about our opinion on this issue, and the fact that product cannot and should not be sold to customers in Republic of Ireland for Free to Air digital TV reception.

    Too late, we have already seen 2 Panasonic ranges the LZD81/PZ81s and the G10/15 ranges with the same short written firmware. The products have been bought in Ireland and the UK (I suggest you just google Panasonic on this site!). The money has been spent. The DVB-T tuners, redundant. Thanks from the Irish consumers for your interpretation of what should and shouldn't be decoded. Sony and LG Freesat Combo products didn't seem to have had the same narrow interpretation.
    daithi7 wrote: »
    We would further add that Panasonic is not authorised to market Freesat models in the Republic of Ireland, nor to support the operation of the Freesat tuner by way of software or firmware upgrade.
    This is not about the support of a Freesat tuner which BTW works fine in Ireland. Its the DVB-T that doesnt. Same MPEG4 level chip doing both, yeah ?
    daithi7 wrote: »
    Of course, Panasonic is fully committed to supporting our products marketed specifically for the Republic of Ireland to ensure continued functionality, this will be dependant upon the final RTE defined format and timing of its implementation.
    We appreciate that this response may cause some disappointment to our customers. However, our position is clear with regard to DTT compliant products in the Republic of Ireland.

    RTE published its BASIC spec for DTT in February 2008. It is finalised and has been for some time, but Panasonic would have know this given they have a representative sitting on the Electrical Distributors Group (CEDA) group in Ireland for a number of years and certainly since 2008.

    Great to see some compliant Panasonic products in 2012 finally though. Welcome to little old Ireland, home of the loyal consumers with long memories.


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  • #91
    championc
    Registered Users Posts: 6,053 ✭✭✭championc


    Hey Adam Neale, are you reading this thread ?

    Looking at STB's reply, you can see
    "These products were sold in Ireland and specifically by the Panasonic shop in Limerick"

    Did you even read the emails which David wrote to Simon ?

    To prove the point that you never even read a single word of the email and that you're only interested in stating the party line, stating "However, as a consequence of changes to RTE’s direction with regard to test transmissions, we have been aware since mid-April 2009 that this is no longer possible." is 100% INCORRECT. We know there are many many sets out there who either never re-scanned or else who re-imported their channel list and can continue to view channels TODAY without issue.

    And then the final bit of nonsense "We would further add that Panasonic is not authorised to market Freesat models in the Republic of Ireland, nor to support the operation of the Freesat tuner by way of software or firmware upgrade", the issue here is with DVB-T which has NOTHING to do with Freesat (which is DVB-S).

    Daithi, please feel free to forward this email to Adam


    Regards
    Cormac


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