Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all,
Vanilla are planning an update to the site on April 24th (next Wednesday). It is a major PHP8 update which is expected to boost performance across the site. The site will be down from 7pm and it is expected to take about an hour to complete. We appreciate your patience during the update.
Thanks all.

Are 4X4 becoming obsolete

Options
2»

Comments

  • Options
    #32
    CJhaughey
    Registered Users Posts: 14,906 ✭✭✭✭CJhaughey


    mickdw wrote: »
    No doubt landcruiser is a fantastic tool however it scares me the way people drive them on the road.
    Yes they have come on alot over the years in terms of on road behaviour but imo they should not be thrown around like a car. Given the amount of suspension travel and the way they behave, they are not a nice machine to control if they get out of shape on a bend. I've known a few people put them on their roofs.
    Yes, but this discussion is about towing not driving a big 4x4 like a sportscar.
    I am in full agreement with you on that subject btw.


  • Options
    #33
    Theanswers
    Registered Users Posts: 697 ✭✭✭Theanswers


    I do agree however, they are not sport-car. They prefer no bends if possible!!


  • Options
    #34
    K.O.Kiki
    Registered Users Posts: 18,697 ✭✭✭✭K.O.Kiki


    CJhaughey wrote: »
    You can posit all kinds of physics and say that they are true but in the real world people that tow for a living and often do so in conditions that would stop a normal car from pulling away will use a 4wd because they are better for the job.
    And in the real world, people with vans do just as well.
    Load a family saloon with a 500kg trailer and another 700kg of timber, put the same car on a 15% incline and try and pull away, now try and do it while wet and you'll find it very difficult to make any progress without slipping the clutch and wheelspinning .
    Try the same thing in a decent 4wd like a Landcruiser and you'll find the difference amazing, the low down torque that a big engine and big flywheel gives and the grip being transferred through all the big grippy tyres makes the job a lot easier.
    Torque has nothing to do with the type of vehicle; it's to do with engine and gears.
    FYI an electric car would have the most torque, and at (essentially) 0rpm.

    Your average 4x4's tyres (if they are off-road tyres) will actually have LESS grip on tarmac. Off-road tyres have less rubber touching the road, ergo, less grip.


  • Options
    #35
    Theanswers
    Registered Users Posts: 697 ✭✭✭Theanswers


    K.O.Kiki wrote: »
    And in the real world, people with vans do just as well.

    Torque has nothing to do with the type of vehicle; it's to do with engine and gears.
    FYI an electric car would have the most torque, and at (essentially) 0rpm.

    Your average 4x4's tyres (if they are off-road tyres) will actually have LESS grip on tarmac. Off-road tyres have less rubber touching the road, ergo, less grip.

    No one has yet to show me a standard 2 wheel drive saloon which can tow 3.5 tonne.

    Likewise, no one has yet to shown me a saloon car with a low range box for multiply the engine gearing ratio!

    Let's see if we can get a smart car towing a load, now that according to the K.O.Kiki above, will be just perfect! Only in Ireland are people brainwashed with this rubbish.


  • Options
    #36
    Theanswers
    Registered Users Posts: 697 ✭✭✭Theanswers


    Likewise, vans still are not as good as proper four wheel drives.

    Very few if any are rated to 3.5 tonne.

    Also a van will be more free and liable to movement, due to lighter weight than a proper 4x4.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #37
    TrailerBob
    Registered Users Posts: 1,503 ✭✭✭TrailerBob


    K.O.Kiki wrote: »

    Torque has nothing to do with the type of vehicle; it's to do with engine and gears.
    FYI an electric car would have the most torque, and at (essentially) 0rpm.

    Your average 4x4's tyres (if they are off-road tyres) will actually have LESS grip on tarmac. Off-road tyres have less rubber touching the road, ergo, less grip.

    Oh where to start...

    Put a hitch on a Nissan leaf and come back to me so I can stick the 16ft Williams on it with 2 ton of machine on top. There are realistically about 12 vehicles(excluding trucks) that should tow that, most are big 4x4s, and a few are long wheelbase, twin wheel heavy duty vans. That's it. classroom physics can't make up for real world experience..

    Tbh I've done nearly 200,000 miles in my current cruiser, and it performs well on the road when driven right, and no car you can possibly find, will out perform it, or the likes of a discovery,with a trailer.


  • Options
    #38
    CJhaughey
    Registered Users Posts: 14,906 ✭✭✭✭CJhaughey


    K.O.Kiki wrote: »
    And in the real world, people with vans do just as well.

    Torque has nothing to do with the type of vehicle; it's to do with engine and gears.
    FYI an electric car would have the most torque, and at (essentially) 0rpm.

    Your average 4x4's tyres (if they are off-road tyres) will actually have LESS grip on tarmac. Off-road tyres have less rubber touching the road, ergo, less grip.
    Correct, Torque is to do with the engine and gears, and if you read my post carefully you will see that I referenced big engine and flywheel.
    The effect of a big displacement engine (Diesel or Petrol) is to have large amounts of torque just off idle, and the big flywheel in these engines also smoothes out the engine impulses that break the grip.
    On smaller engines the torque is delivered higher in the rev range which necessitates higher revs and more clutch slip to modulate the power delivery.
    I agree that a powerful electric engine would make a great towcar, but the shíte range of the current crop of cars would make towing anything a very shortlived affair not to mention that most electric cars don't have towbars.

    Diesel electric trains are the ultimate solution but limited to travelling on tracks which makes parking inconvenient.

    Grip is not just rubber surface area, it depends on the compound of the rubber, temperature and other factors.
    Slicks on an icy road have zero grip, but huge contact area.
    So your simplistic analysis of the tyre tread vs grip is wrong.

    Just out of interest what towing experience have you got, or is it all theoretical?


  • Options
    #39
    CJhaughey
    Registered Users Posts: 14,906 ✭✭✭✭CJhaughey


    TrailerBob wrote: »

    Tbh I've done nearly 200,000 miles in my current cruiser, and it performs well on the road when driven right, and no car you can possibly find, will out perform it, or the likes of a discovery,with a trailer.
    I sold my SWB 90 LC with 275mls on it, its still running like a clock.
    You've years left in yours:)


  • Options
    #40
    TrailerBob
    Registered Users Posts: 1,503 ✭✭✭TrailerBob


    It passed 250k last month, bought it with 60k on it.. no plans to move it on anytime soon!


  • Options
    #41
    CJhaughey
    Registered Users Posts: 14,906 ✭✭✭✭CJhaughey


    TrailerBob wrote: »
    It passed 250k last month, bought it with 60k on it.. no plans to move it on anytime soon!
    1KZ-TE or the 1KD-FTV?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #42
    visual
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,268 ✭✭✭visual


    Most 4x4 are designed by manufacturer to be capable of towing 6 tons or more. So being restricted to 3.5 tons by law is well within there capability.

    Cars and vans are stretching there abilities towing heavy trailers even if they are rated for the load


  • Options
    #43
    TrailerBob
    Registered Users Posts: 1,503 ✭✭✭TrailerBob


    CJhaughey wrote: »
    1KZ-TE or the 1KD-FTV?

    It's the KD, very last of the 95's. Running sweet. Only ever had routine maintenance. Some people prefer the older engine, but the power difference is significant.


  • Options
    #44
    CJhaughey
    Registered Users Posts: 14,906 ✭✭✭✭CJhaughey


    Hmm no reply from Koo ki kid, maybe he has gone to do his E license and prove that an EV is a great tow vehicle?


  • Options
    #45
    Theanswers
    Registered Users Posts: 697 ✭✭✭Theanswers


    I was just thinking along the same lines... No reply!


  • Options
    #46
    Theanswers
    Registered Users Posts: 697 ✭✭✭Theanswers


    Now this would be a good tow car. However I don't think it's what OP had in mind!!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThfF_mH3xSo


  • Options
    #47
    Irish Steve
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,521 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve


    Had a range of vehicles over the years that were used for towing, the current vehicle is an Isuzu crew cab 4 x 4, and I'm in no hurry to change it despite spending a lot of time recently rebuilding the rear wheel arches in order to pass the DOE.

    The 4 x 4 has advantages when towing heavy loads, the braking is more effective, and the total weight of the vehicle helps to avoid problems with the trailer balance and stability, and the big fat wide tyres are a significant help on some of the less than optimum road surfaces that are all to prevalent in some parts of the country. I originally got it after major flooding issues in our area, I needed something that could pretend to be a submarine in an emergency, and it does that very well also. It was also very helpful when we needed to be able to carry a significant number of large "coffin" boxes containing flowers, and the people to work on them when we got to the venue, which for large weddings and the like was essential.

    So, 4 x 4 is actually only a minor part of the scenario. I've probably only used the 4 wheel option for 1 or 2% of the total distance it's travelled, ( it lived in 4Wd for a couple of months when the weather was dire and the roads were covered in snow a few years back) , the rest of the time, it is in 2WD high ratio, it wasn't bought for off road work.

    It's not a vehicle that would be chosen in large numbers, if for no other reason than that getting it in and out of parking spaces in car parks can be a pain, at 5m length and with a turning circle that could cross the county border, there are some places where it just won't go, and there's no point trying, but for the jobs it was built for, it's hard to beat it, and despite it being nearly 2 tonne emtpy, it still returns over 35 miles to the gallon, unless I push hard at high speeds, which is not unreasonable.

    I'd be hard pressed to find a replacement that's as capable of doing all that this does, but at some stage, I'm going to have to, and it won't be easy.

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



  • Options
    #48
    homerjay2005
    Registered Users Posts: 29,346 ✭✭✭✭homerjay2005


    thinking of buying a new car (2008/2009) and the missus wants to buy something along the lines of a Kia Sportage, Hyundai Tuscon, while weve also looked at the Fiat Sedici and Ssanyoung Actyon.

    my issue is they are exceptionally cheap, around €4,000 to €5,000. so what the catch, why are garages selling them at that price?

    if anybody has experience of owning any of the 4 model above, would greatly appreciate any advise especially in terms of reliability and running costs. our current car is fairly petrol intensive (only get about 108 miles for €20) so looking for something that isnt less fuel efficient that at worst.


  • Options
    #49
    TrailerBob
    Registered Users Posts: 1,503 ✭✭✭TrailerBob


    Certainly the latter 2 you mention would be just poor quality vehicles.
    The Tucson is not a bad car. A friend has one for a year now, and it's pretty reliable, though it's as bland as a bland thing painted magnolia. They are 2 wheel drive so not awful on fuel either. Built like a mid 90's Japanese car really.


  • Options
    #50
    316
    Closed Accounts Posts: 243 ✭✭316


    Irish Steve wrote: »
    it still returns over 35 miles to the gallon, unless I push hard at high speeds, which is not unreasonable.

    What 4x4 you driving?


  • Options
    #51
    Irish Steve
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,521 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve


    316 wrote: »
    What 4x4 you driving?


    2003 Isuzu TFS 4 x 4 lwb crew cab with 2.5 Turbo Diesel engine, has a Carryboy hard top on the back, so not completely waterproof over the load area, but close enough. Not the most comfortable of machines for long distances, especially for the back seats, but it's done me well since I've had it, pretty much from new.

    Reliability it's been very good, I've not had to spend a great deal over the years, it needs new rear spring shackle bushes every 2 or 3 years, and the back exhaust box has broken the pipe a couple of times, but they are cheap enough from Milner's in the UK.

    Had to rebuild the rear wheel arches this year for the DOE test due to rust, but the rest of it is in good shape, and it's never given me any worries on BF Goodrich tyres, which are lasting very well. The running board supports on the drivers side rusted out earlier this year as well, but they weren't too hard to replace.

    Engine is very flexible, and has the advantage of no timing belt to be replaced at regular intervals, which keeps the costs down.

    It won't set the world on fire acceleration wise, but it will cruise at between 110 and 130 Kph if I need it to.

    It's also not a bad towing machine either, I've had a long Ifor Williams trailer on the back with Fork Lift batteries on it, so well over 2 Tonne of load plus the trailer weight, and it takes that with no problems.

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



  • Advertisement
Advertisement