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ETB Unwilling to pay for work done

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    #32
    smallgarden
    Registered Users Posts: 1,605 ✭✭✭smallgarden


    I'd agree with crafty Sue and try to get something in writing from the department. My understanding is that the money is coming from the department and the etb should be getting the money to cover the maternity leave cover from them. If in this situation the department would be willing to pay you then really the etb should too. Otherwise where is the money they're getting for the maternity cover going? Also employment law should come into play. The person in the etb payroll is probably reading section 31 which does say they can't pay you so is only enforcing that information. I'd say if you got a letter from the department explaining that you should be untitled to the unqualified rate the etb should pay you

    If payroll can't help you try contacting the contact for section30 section30_queries@education.gov.ie and section30@teachingcouncil.ie Id exhaust these before going down solicitor and union route


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    #33
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,394 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    superdude268 wrote: »
    If I were in any sort of position at all to challenge this I would. But the debt I incurred for doing a masters, and living expenses for the last 2 months have myself and my parents completely wiped out. You can imagine the team of solicitors either the ETB or the Teaching Council would have in place also.

    This is where the union should come in. However I believe the initial concept of a teaching council was favoured by the unions. I really cant believd however that members allowed the council go ahead as a annual cash cow.


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    #34
    superdude268
    Registered Users Posts: 25 ✭superdude268


    smallgarden wrote: »
    I'd agree with crafty Sue and try to get something in writing from the department. My understanding is that the money is coming from the department and the etb should be getting the money to cover the maternity leave cover from them. If in this situation the department would be willing to pay you then really the etb should too. Otherwise where is the money they're getting for the maternity cover going? Also employment law should come into play. The person in the etb payroll is probably reading section 31 which does say they can't pay you so is only enforcing that information. I'd say if you got a letter from the department explaining that you should be untitled to the unqualified rate the etb should pay you

    Very good point made there. My only concern here is that the girl I was talking to on the phone may not be in a position to put that in writing. If however she did, it would certainly hold substantial weight.


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    #35
    happywithlife
    Registered Users Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭happywithlife


    You did the work and I cannot believe you should go completely unpaid for it. Yes you should have been registered but then somebody from their HR should have called a halt BEFORE you started teaching. Errors on both sides here. I can't believe you wouldn't get the unqualified rate. Don't normal employment laws still apply? You completed the work with a reasonable expectation of payment


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    #36
    smallgarden
    Registered Users Posts: 1,605 ✭✭✭smallgarden


    If she's not able Id ask her to put you in contact with someone who can, added in emails of people who deal with section 30 in above post. They're at end of circular I posted before. Emails are handy as they're in writing as well


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    #37
    superdude268
    Registered Users Posts: 25 ✭superdude268


    Just e-mailing those addresses now thank you.


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    #38
    superdude268
    Registered Users Posts: 25 ✭superdude268


    I rang the Teaching Council earlier also but they said there was absolutely nothing they could do as they are completely separate from pay and hr related issues.


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    #39
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,111 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Unlike the Teaching Council, the ETBs occasionally live in the real world. I wouldn't worry about any 'teams of solicitors' on the ETB's part.

    You should at least be able to get the unqualified rate, though if it were me, I'd be pushing for the qualified rate. The TC cried wolf for years about not paying people who were not registered. There are plenty of cases for precedent of people who were not registered and were paid.

    Get a name of someone sensible in payroll (ask older teachers, there is always one sensible head in any payroll department) and speak directly to them. Meanwhile get the union to bring your case up as a personal case at Stage 3 (their regular monthly meeting with the officers of the ETB) - there is no need for any nonsense about this.


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    #40
    TheDriver
    Registered Users Posts: 12,393 ✭✭✭✭TheDriver


    You should not have been employed until proof of at least pending registration was produced in writing. In my ETB, we don't even interview people unless current registration is produced or receipt of pending application. Hence you should have some leeway with the etb


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    #41
    NapoleonInRags
    Registered Users Posts: 1,264 ✭✭✭NapoleonInRags


    Surely the position here is that the ETB are not entitled to claim funding for an unregistered teacher, rather than you not being entitled to be paid for work you carried out in good faith.

    In other words the ETB should be out of pocket on this, not you.


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    #42
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,132 ✭✭✭✭km79


    superdude268 wrote: »
    I rang the Teaching Council earlier also but they said there was absolutely nothing they could do as they are completely separate from pay and hr related issues.

    They are absolutely USELESS
    Apart from taking money from TEACHERS what do the TEACHING council do for us?
    Best of luck anyway OP
    At worst you should be getting the unqualified rate. Do not be afraid to push for the money. You did the work. You must get paid


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    #43
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,394 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    km79 wrote: »
    They are absolutely USELESS
    Apart from taking money from TEACHERS what do the TEACHING council do for us?
    Best of luck anyway OP
    At worst you should be getting the unqualified rate. Do not be afraid to push for the money. You did the work. You must get paid
    The things they are supposed to do:
    1. Verify your educational credentials and assure whoever employs you that you those credentials allow you to work in "whatever" area.
    2. Verify your Garda vetting status.
    At a cost of €90 initially and I believe €90 a year after that.
    The theory is a good thing as it centralises that work however why you pay 90 quid a year after they first "verify" you, is one of the biggest cons going.


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    #44
    bearhugs
    Registered Users Posts: 269 ✭✭bearhugs


    I think it's gone down to €65 a year now, if I remember correctly. Best of luck OP, awful situation to be in.


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    #45
    aunt aggie
    Registered Users Posts: 454 ✭✭aunt aggie


    kippy wrote: »
    The things they are supposed to do:
    1. Verify your educational credentials and assure whoever employs you that you those credentials allow you to work in "whatever" area.
    2. Verify your Garda vetting status.
    At a cost of €90 initially and I believe €90 a year after that.
    The theory is a good thing as it centralises that work however why you pay 90 quid a year after they first "verify" you, is one of the biggest cons going.

    i refuse to accept the teaching council have anything to do with the vetting process. I send my form to a policeman in Athlone who then forwards the garda vetting cert to me and/or my employer. Absolutely nothing to do with the TC. I've been registered with TC for over four years and they only garda vetted me once!! All other vetting has been through my employers.

    I do know that the TC are responsible for writing the Professional Guidelines for teaching and could soon have the power to remove teachers from the register if a complaint is brought against them and upheld by the TC.

    Its all ahead of us lads!


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    #46
    mtoutlemonde
    Registered Users Posts: 2,120 ✭✭✭mtoutlemonde


    aunt aggie wrote: »
    i refuse to accept the teaching council have anything to do with the vetting process.

    Amazing how this happened to be in the news today :)
    http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/1022/653979-teachers-garda-vetting/
    Only new teachers and those moving schools are currently required to obtain garda clearance, which is administered by the Teaching Council.
    I suppose they have to say they do it to justify the fees we pay them!
    aunt aggie wrote: »
    I've been registered with TC for over four years and they only garda vetted me once!!

    +1 I have only been vetted once and have been in a lot of schools.
    aunt aggie wrote: »
    I send my form to a policeman in Athlone who then forwards the garda vetting cert to me and/or my employer. Absolutely nothing to do with the TC.

    Have you got a vetting certificate from the Teaching Council?


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    #47
    f3232
    Registered Users Posts: 155 ✭✭f3232


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    While I accept you were broke, that's not the ETB's problem.

    I'd also agree with mirrorwall, it has been well publicised. That and many of the dip students who have posted on this board over the last year or two have spoken about it. Job applications look for Teaching Council registrations. It's been discussed on here for a number of years, the fact that teachers will have to be registered in order to be paid. On that front I don't think you have a leg to stand on.

    Senior teachers might not be aware of it, because it's not something they have to do, registration with the teaching council isn't something that affects them on a a day to day basis.

    It's also not crystal clear from the ETB side. Were you given a contract? Were there conditions written into the job offer or contract: i.e. job is offered on condition that applicant is fully registered with teaching council? Was the job offered on the basis that your registration was in process?

    Interviewing on Aug 22 and not putting in your application until October doesn't leave you in a very strong position in my opinion.

    There is the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. This person was doing I expect a fair days work during their time so far. The ETB has a moral responsibility to get this sorted for the OP.

    You cant just employ someone for 3 weeks and then tell them sorry, your not getting paid and then say sorry we really should not have even employed you you cant get paid?? I mean i know we live in a banana republic but that's having a laugh.

    Also I suggest getting the union involved


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    #48
    aunt aggie
    Registered Users Posts: 454 ✭✭aunt aggie


    mtoutlemonde wrote: »
    +1 I have only been vetted once and have been in a lot of schools.
    Have you got a vetting certificate from the Teaching Council?

    I have been vetted by new schools but that doesn't involve the TC. Schools and ETBs require garda vetting upon hiring new teachers for child protection issues. The TC have no input on this and as far as I know schools are not required to forward this information to the TC.

    The garda vetting form is universal to all professions, whether you're a teacher, coaching GAA or involved in voluntary work with children.


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    #49
    smallgarden
    Registered Users Posts: 1,605 ✭✭✭smallgarden


    aunt aggie wrote: »
    I have been vetted by new schools but that doesn't involve the TC. Schools and ETBs require garda vetting upon hiring new teachers for child protection issues. The TC have no input on this and as far as I know schools are not required to forward this information to the TC.

    The garda vetting form is universal to all professions, whether you're a teacher, coaching GAA or involved in voluntary work with children.

    You have to get vetting done through the teaching council now on their form and you send it to them rather than the gardai.


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    #50
    seavill
    Registered Users Posts: 1,620 ✭✭✭seavill


    aunt aggie wrote: »
    I have been vetted by new schools but that doesn't involve the TC. Schools and ETBs require garda vetting upon hiring new teachers for child protection issues. The TC have no input on this and as far as I know schools are not required to forward this information to the TC.

    The garda vetting form is universal to all professions, whether you're a teacher, coaching GAA or involved in voluntary work with children.

    The vetting form is universal but you have to get separate vetting done for each organisation eg one for teaching one for FAI one for gaa etc


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    #51
    TheBody
    Registered Users Posts: 5,619 ✭✭✭TheBody


    The whole system stinks. There are a few people subbing in my wife's ETB school. None of them with teaching qualifications and all getting paid.


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    #52
    superdude268
    Registered Users Posts: 25 ✭superdude268


    TheBody wrote: »
    The whole system stinks. There are a few people subbing in my wife's ETB school. None of them with teaching qualifications and all getting paid.

    I didn't think this was allowed anymore? Similar to my mistake not being registered on time, I could question the consistency of them implementing the rules in some cases but not all?


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    #53
    TheBody
    Registered Users Posts: 5,619 ✭✭✭TheBody


    superdude268 wrote: »
    I didn't think this was allowed anymore? Similar to my mistake not being registered on time, I could question the consistency of them implementing the rules in some cases but not all?

    It's not allowed but clearly the rules are bent when it suits.


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    #54
    Mardy Bum
    Registered Users Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Mardy Bum


    Certain people have used a loop hole to get a teaching registration number despite not being suitably qualified.


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    #55
    MathsManiac
    Registered Users Posts: 1,595 ✭✭✭MathsManiac


    I'm not a solicitor but in my view there is no conflict between the laws concerned and more general employment law. I suspect that the legal position would be found to be that the ETB are obliged to pay the person for the work done but that they are not legally allowed to use public funds to do so. How they square that one would be their problem.


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    #56
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,111 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    MathsManiac wrote: »
    I'm not a solicitor but in my view there is no conflict between the laws concerned and more general employment law. I suspect that the legal position would be found to be that the ETB are obliged to pay the person for the work done but that they are not legally allowed to use public funds to do so. How they square that one would be their problem.

    Call it 'consulting' and triple the rate.


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