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Interesting Public Sector comparison with NI

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    n97 mini wrote: »
    In RoI you can minimise motor-tax liability, or avoid it altogether. It's not practical for people in NI to move house or to do without a house altogether to achieve the same.

    I'm always amused by public servants bemoaning the tax burden, when PS pay and pensions are the second biggest head of expenditure after social welfare. I would have thought PS employees would be happier with a bigger tax burden as it supports their tenure in the PS. I think if I was still in the PS I would.

    Not when we have to pay all these things too. Maybe you should have said taking money of social welfare would suit us.

    Also 2/3 of the population live outside cities. Many couldn't function without a car.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    woodoo wrote: »
    Not when we have to pay all these things too.
    I'm not assuming you work in the PS, but for every wurker in the PS there are 4 or 5 aren't. All that tax goes back into the exchequer, and will directly benefit those who are paid out of the exchequer, namely SW and PS.
    woodoo wrote: »
    Also 2/3 of the population live outside cities. Many couldn't function without a car.
    Hmm. I've seen complaints in the last few posts about taxing 3-litre BMWs, and 1.9 litre standard family cars. If you feel that your job is secure enough, a BMW 520D can be taxed for €160.


  • Registered Users Posts: 43,274 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    woodoo wrote: »
    Politicians have begin quoting that Northern Ireland has Housing rates so why not us. They never mention that our road tax is much higher than theirs

    It doesn't have to be, if it is such an issue, buy a car with a cheap rate of motor tax.
    and they don't have to pay for bin collection or Medical care.

    Nope, they do pay rates of over a grand a year and 11% NIC.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    It's also important to remember that NI runs on massive subsidies from Britain. Last figure mentioned was 66% of all NI exchequer expenditure is not raised locally, but that is a little skewed by the fact that NI has a bigger than typical Civil Service.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    n97 mini wrote: »
    Hmm. I've seen complaints in the last few posts about taxing 3-litre BMWs, and 1.9 litre standard family cars. If you feel that your job is secure enough, a BMW 520D can be taxed for €160.

    you seem to leave out the fact that you have to buy a new (2008) on car to avail of the lower motor tax? Surely the cost of theis new car has to be considered?

    Also i dont think the people that are lucky enough to run 3.0 litre cars are complaining as such, but in a thread where comparissons are being made, then why not compare the differences in both countries?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    K-9 wrote: »
    It doesn't have to be, if it is such an issue, buy a car with a cheap rate of motor tax..

    I can't afford an 08.

    Unless you propose the whole country and their families start running about in little 1.0 ltr fiesta's then on average NI has much cheaper road tax.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    You'd probably find there is some car you can afford that suits your needs perfectly with a smaller engine than a 1.9. Lots of families (like mine) survive just fine with 1.4 petrol saloons.


  • Registered Users Posts: 43,274 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    woodoo wrote: »
    I can't afford an 08.

    Unless you propose the whole country and their families start running about in little 1.0 ltr fiesta's then on average NI has much cheaper road tax.

    But you can afford to pay a higher rate of motor tax?

    I don't really get it, you can't afford an 08 up car to get cheaper motor tax but you can afford a big enough older car and the resultant higher running costs, NCT, Insurance, fuel etc.?

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    n97 mini wrote: »
    You'd probably find there is some car you can afford that suits your needs perfectly with a smaller engine than a 1.9. Lots of families (like mine) survive just fine with 1.4 petrol saloons.
    K-9 wrote: »
    But you can afford to pay a higher rate of motor tax?

    I don't really get it, you can't afford an 08 up car to get cheaper motor tax but you can afford a big enough older car and the resultant higher running costs, NCT, Insurance, fuel etc.?

    No i used to have a 1.9 car. I sold it because i couldn't stomach paying such a high rate. But for anyone that travels far a diesel is important.

    Most countries around Europe don't require you to drive a new/nearly new car or a 1 litre hen house just to achieve some level of affordable driving.

    I think you both know the point i'm making. We pay very high motor tax rates.


  • Registered Users Posts: 43,274 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    woodoo wrote: »
    No i used to have a 1.9 car. I sold it because i couldn't stomach paying such a high rate. But for anyone that travels far a diesel is important.

    Most countries around Europe don't require you to drive a new/nearly new car or a 1 litre hen house just to achieve some level of affordable driving.

    I think you both know the point i'm making. We pay very high motor tax rates.

    I do see your point, I and others are making a point that you seem totally unwilling to see.

    Without specifics it's a very vague point.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    K-9 wrote: »
    Without specifics it's a very vague point.

    Motor Tax is theft in this country, thats the point. Relative to other countries that people want to compare our services to, including salaries, energy etc, we are way above the norm!


    People cant sit there and say "our wages should be more linked to UK wages, our nearest neighbour" then on the other hand say "well you cant link out motor tax rates".

    If people want to compare one country to another, dont just go on gross salary figures, compare the direct and indirect taxes too.

    I have access to an address up in Newry and god knows why i havent made use of it before! I could easily swap my address to there, get a NI licence and buy a nice 08 car for 04 irish money and not worry about VRT or irish motor tax :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 43,274 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    kceire wrote: »
    Motor Tax is theft in this country, thats the point. Relative to other countries that people want to compare our services to, including salaries, energy etc, we are way above the norm!


    People cant sit there and say "our wages should be more linked to UK wages, our nearest neighbour" then on the other hand say "well you cant link out motor tax rates".

    If people want to compare one country to another, dont just go on gross salary figures, compare the direct and indirect taxes too.

    Well PAYE and Insurance is cheaper here for average wages so it really is a question of how much of that gets eaten into by higher indirect taxes. I don't know a lot about motor tax but it seems there is an element of choice there and the UK has upped their rate so in time that difference will erode.
    I have access to an address up in Newry and god knows why i havent made use of it before! I could easily swap my address to there, get a NI licence and buy a nice 08 car for 04 irish money and not worry about VRT or irish motor tax :D

    Even then they can still get you!

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    woodoo wrote: »
    Most countries around Europe don't require you to drive a new/nearly new car or a 1 litre hen house just to achieve some level of affordable driving.

    I think you both know the point i'm making. We pay very high motor tax rates.
    I do see you point, and to an extent I agree. But from 2008 it has been possible to big a large car that incurs small tax, and I don't consider 4 years old that particularly new. I would have preferred if we copied the UK and just put the bulk of tax on fuel, but that would never have been popular with the large number of people who were forced to live long distances from their work place because of property prices, which I can also understand.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 318 ✭✭audidiesel


    n97 mini wrote: »
    I do see you point, and to an extent I agree. But from 2008 it has been possible to big a large car that incurs small tax, and I don't consider 4 years old that particularly new. I would have preferred if we copied the UK and just put the bulk of tax on fuel, but that would never have been popular with the large number of people who were forced to live long distances from their work place because of property prices, which I can also understand.

    we already pay very high rates of tax on our fuel though. while we dont pay as much as the uk in this we are still pretty close and comfortably above the eu average. then we also get screwed with the motor tax costs

    from march 30th 2012 average prices (the purchase price of 1L of crude oil is € 0.277 at the moment - refining costs unavailable though)




    Ireland

    Petrol price at retail €1.650
    Petrol price without VAT €1.341

    Diesel price at retail €1.575
    Diesel price without VAT €1.280


    United Kingdom

    Petrol price at retail €1.689
    Petrol price without VAT €1.408

    Diesel price at retail €1.761
    Diesel price without VAT €1.468


    EU AVERAGE


    Petrol price at retail €1.580
    Petrol price without VAT €1.306

    Diesel price at retail €1.489
    Diesel price without VAT €1.231



    http://www.energy.eu/


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    The cost per capita of running this country is greater than the UK.

    For example, we have the most roads per capita in Europe (due to daft housing policies). Those roads are maintained out of the public purse.

    The UK has 6km of road per person. We have 24km of road per person.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    The cost per capita of running this country is greater than the UK.

    It may well be. Does it have to be?
    For example, we have the most roads per capita in Europe (due to daft housing policies).

    The number of roads has nothing to do with modern housing policies. These roads came into place in the 18th and 19th centuries when the British were here. Britain is an uncommonly densely populated place.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    ardmacha wrote: »
    The number of roads has nothing to do with modern housing policies.
    Not true. Roads that have housing built along them need to be kept maintained, but local authorities do not use the fact that in some cases there is no existing housing to refuse planning permission.
    ardmacha wrote: »
    These roads came into place in the 18th and 19th centuries when the British were here. Britain is an uncommonly densely populated place.
    That's not true either. A sizeable number of country roads were animal tracks.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    n97 mini wrote: »
    The cost per capita of running this country is greater than the UK.

    For example, we have the most roads per capita in Europe (due to daft housing policies). Those roads are maintained out of the public purse.

    The UK has 6km of road per person. We have 24km of road per person.

    Do you have any evidence to back up this bit in bold? Other than anecdotal.

    If you do have such evidence, have you taken into account the following:

    - the relative services provided in both states
    - the relative % of children in education
    - the relative expenditure on defence
    - the relative age of the population (very young and very old need more health care)
    - the relative % size of the welfare dependent population
    - the relative social welfare rates
    - the relative direct grants provided by central government
    -the relative savings in terms of scale

    Once you have either allowed for the differences in service requirements caused by the above, only then can you say that the costs per capita of running this country is greater than the UK. It would be quite a comprehensive study and I would be interested in reading it so maybe you could provide a link.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    2011 UK gross govt expenditure was £638bn (approx €760bn) for a population of 62m, or about €12,300 per person.

    Irish gross expenditure was €69bn for a population of about 4.3m, or €16,000 per person.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    2011 UK gross govt expenditure was £638bn (approx €760bn) for a population of 62m, or about €12,300 per person.

    Irish gross expenditure was €69bn for a population of about 4.3m, or €16,000 per person.

    Totals such as this are not very informative. The devil is in the detail.
    The problem is that there has been very very little proper analysis done. n97 mini's mention of roads per person is going in the right direction, but as Godge days you need to look at things like relative % of children in education and not just total expenditures.

    Likewise the cost of things needs analysis and not just headline figures.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    Regardless of what the heads of expenditure are, a country that spends €16k per person vs a country that spends €12k per person, costs more per capita. It's a statement of fact.

    The reasons why Ireland costs around a third more than the UK to run are worth exploring, but it's likely that we spend more per head on everything, roads, health, salaries, etc. Certainly any comparison I have made (possibly with the exception of military expenditure) we spend more.


  • Posts: 0 Chase Late Viking


    n97 mini wrote: »
    2011 UK gross govt expenditure was £638bn (approx €760bn) for a population of 62m, or about €12,300 per person.

    Irish gross expenditure was €69bn for a population of about 4.3m, or €16,000 per person.

    UK budgeted Government spending for the year from 1 April 2012 to 31 March 2013 is £683 billion, or €819.6 billion at current exchange rates, for a population of 63 million (2010 estimate plus a little for population growth), or about €12,900 per person.

    Irish budgeted Government spending for the nearest equivalent period, i.e. calendar year 2012, is €61.5 billion for a population of 4.59 million (2011 Census figure), or about €13,400 per person.

    If you exclude Defence spending, which is only reasonable given that the UK has major global military commitments by comparison to Ireland, the UK figure for Government spending per capita is about €12,200 per person, while the Irish figure is about €13,200. So the difference is about 8.5%.

    UK source:

    http://cdn.hm-treasury.gov.uk/budget2012_complete.pdf

    Ireland sources:

    http://budget.gov.ie/Budgets/2012/Documents/Estimates%20of%20Receipts%20and%20Expenditure%20for%20the%20Year%20ending%2031%20December%202012.pdf

    http://www.budget.gov.ie/budgets/2012/Documents/CER%20-%20Estimates%20Final.pdf


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,683 ✭✭✭barneystinson


    n97 mini wrote: »
    The cost per capita of running this country is greater than the UK.

    For example, we have the most roads per capita in Europe (due to daft housing policies). Those roads are maintained out of the public purse.

    The UK has 6km of road per person. We have 24km of road per person.

    The population density of the UK is 255/sq. km.
    The population density of Ireland is 65/sq. km.
    That's a factor of 4, the same as 24km:6km.

    It's hard to decipher what your vision for Ireland's infrastructure is, in your ideal world - plenty of roads in / around urban centres, intercity motorways, and vast swathes of inaccessible countryside, where this is the norm... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8bqQ-C1PSE...?!


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    It's hard to decipher what your vision for Ireland's infrastructure is,
    I'm not an infrastructure planner so I don't have a vision. I'm in favour of sustainability through good planning.

    David McWilliams first wrote about the issue in 2005.


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