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Why are Sinn Fein "bad"?

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13567…29

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    #62
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    marienbad wrote: »
    We have prospered- enormously . This country is unrecognisable from even 40 years ago never mind the 1920's . And that includes the current economic mess.

    Though I suppose you have to be a certain age to see that without the blinkers on.

    As I said, please refrain from the 'I'm alright Jack' methodology. There are still huge swathes of the country and many many of it's people lagging behind.
    I think you might want to take the 'blinkers' off a while.


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    #63
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    As I said, please refrain from the 'I'm alright Jack' methodology. There are still huge swathes of the country and many many of it's people lagging behind.
    I think you might want to take the 'blinkers' off a while.

    You don't get to define the terms of the discussion .

    Show me any section of society that is not substantially better off now than it was 40 years ago ?


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    #64
    comongethappy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,753 ✭✭✭comongethappy


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    There are still huge swathes of the country and many many of it's people lagging behind.

    Who are these people still lagging behind in 1970's levels of income/prosperity?


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    #65
    zoobizoo
    Registered Users Posts: 2,712 ✭✭✭zoobizoo


    I'd never vote for a candidate who posted a tribute on his FB page to a failed IRA bomber - that's what Cllr John Brady in Wicklow did last year.

    Had the bomber been successful with his 20kg of semtex, would the same candidate have been happy with the murder of innocent people residing in London?

    Not only did the bomber blow himself up but injured innocent travellers and left a bus driver deaf.

    Yet last year, SF cllr john Brady lauded this guy as a "brave volunteer" who "fought bravely".

    Two months later Mr. Brady was empathising with the people of Boston after the marathon.

    It's the negativity, the blatant hypocrisy, and well, the bully boy tactics that they use. Talk to some local politicians and ask them how they are treated by SF canvassers during elections.

    They make me feel sorry for Unionist politicians having to work with them... and that says a lot.


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    #66
    realweirdo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 974 ✭✭✭realweirdo


    Unfortunately there is still the whiff of hardline socialism to them of the type popular in the old Soviet Union and other one party states. And their economic policies are questionable. Having said that most of their politicians are decent enough although set against Fianna Fail, any party would look good these days.


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    #67
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    marienbad wrote: »
    You don't get to define the terms of the discussion .

    Show me any section of society that is not substantially better off now than it was 40 years ago ?


    Who compared anything to 40 years ago?

    Have you walked the streets of a rural town in the past while? Perhaps walk a few that have suffered from the division and you might get your eyes opened.
    I don't consider cyclical booms and busts as 'prospering' for ordinary people.


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    #68
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,660 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    Red Kev wrote: »
    My biggest issue with SF, and the reason that I won't vote for them is that they oppose cuts in the Republic of Ireland but implement the exact same cuts in Northern Ireland where they are in power. Utter populists, something I despise in politics, be it on the left or right.

    Not only is Simon Hamilton MLA not a member of Sinn Fein, London are the ones who control finance in the north. I dont think the biggest issue you have there is with Sinn Fein. The bigger issue would be actually looking at reality instead of making up stuff like "they oppose cuts in the Republic of Ireland but implement the exact same cuts in Northern Ireland". The amount of fantasy in this thread is crazy - I could swear someone even claimed SF were marxist.


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    #69
    quadrifoglio verde
    Registered Users Posts: 3,670 ✭✭✭quadrifoglio verde


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Shame is, it isn't history, the island is still divided, a core reason why we haven't prospered. But this or certainly the next generation will see a united island and a chance to build a proper republic where the people come first.
    Please demonstrate how that has been the case with your great 'economists'.
    Please refrain from using an 'I'm alright Jack' methodology.

    Economically, this country would be significantly worse off, if the north was under the republics wing. Don't for a second think, that everyone in this country wants the 6 counties and the problems that goes with it.


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    #70
    comongethappy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,753 ✭✭✭comongethappy


    Happyman42 wrote: »

    Have you walked the streets of a rural town in the past while? Perhaps walk a few that have suffered from the division and you might get your eyes opened.

    Empty rhetoric.

    Zero solutions

    (Copyright Sinn Feinn 2008-2014).


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    #71
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Who compared anything to 40 years ago?

    Have you walked the streets of a rural town in the past while? Perhaps walk a few that have suffered from the division and you might get your eyes opened.
    I don't consider cyclical booms and busts as 'prospering' for ordinary people.

    In you own words then ''a core reason why we haven't prospered''

    We have prospered enormously in every parish, town and city.


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    #72
    comongethappy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,753 ✭✭✭comongethappy


    maccored wrote: »
    I could swear someone even claimed SF were marxist.

    I'm not sure they are Marxist either.
    That would require some thought on their part.

    Populist bandwagoning is much easier.


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    #73
    quadrifoglio verde
    Registered Users Posts: 3,670 ✭✭✭quadrifoglio verde


    maccored wrote: »
    Not only is Simon Hamilton MLA not a member of Sinn Fein, London are the ones who control finance in the north. I dont think the biggest issue you have there is with Sinn Fein. The bigger issue would be actually looking at reality instead of making up stuff like "they oppose cuts in the Republic of Ireland but implement the exact same cuts in Northern Ireland". The amount of fantasy in this thread is crazy - I could swear someone even claimed SF were marxist.

    Is their council rates in the North? Yes
    Is the dole rate much lower in the north? Yes
    Who is in power in the North? Sinn fein and DUP.

    Does it not come across as hypocritical that down south, SF are promoting a policy of no water charges, no property tax, increase welfare payments etc, yet in the North, where they are in coalition supporting the opposite?

    The fact of the matter is, that if SF do come to power with their populist economic policies, water charges will remain, property tax will remain and social payments won't rise like a rocket and for a good reason. If you get rid of one tax, you either have to introduce a new tax, or cut spending. People don't like either.
    Or is SF going to tax the non-existent money tree :pac:


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    #74
    twowheelsgood
    Registered Users Posts: 759 ✭✭✭twowheelsgood


    realweirdo wrote: »
    Unfortunately there is still the whiff of hardline socialism to them of the type popular in the old Soviet Union and other one party states. And their economic policies are questionable. Having said that most of their politicians are decent enough although set against Fianna Fail, any party would look good these days.

    Hard-line socialists tend to be mocked and dismissed in Ireland. The distain for Sinn Fein is based on something more, specifically their past willingness to ignore the wishes of the Irish people and use force to try and bring a united Ireland about.

    Despite that been some time ago a sizable number of people have not forgotten or forgiven (which in one way is surprising given how quick the redemption of FF has been).
    They haven’t helped their cause by keeping old soldiers like Adams and Ferris around (though they may have had their own internal reasons for this).
    Eventually these old boys will shuffle off and probably take a lot of their baggage with them.

    Possibly then they will be then just another political party, albeit one with that is a far left socialist with a bit of fervour for nationalism. Given that the main political parties have either purged or diluted both of these urges over the years you would have to wonder if SF in 20 to 30 years time will look much like the current crew. But I guess that’s a different question / thread.


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    #75
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    marienbad wrote: »
    In you own words then ''a core reason why we haven't prospered''

    We have prospered enormously in every parish, town and city.

    Standards of living have gone up much like the rest of Europe but we still have huge numbers living below the poverty line and have not exploited our potential as we could have. i.e. we haven't prospered to our potential and if the last few years shows us anything, it is the fragility of our economy.
    It was the greedy burghers of FF and FG that showed us that.


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    #76
    endacl
    Registered Users Posts: 22,231 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Who compared anything to 40 years ago?

    Have you walked the streets of a rural town in the past while? Perhaps walk a few that have suffered from the division and you might get your eyes opened.
    I don't consider cyclical booms and busts as 'prospering' for ordinary people.
    I look at my parents' generation. Both from rural towns such as the one you ask us to imagine. Out of six uncles and five aunts combining both sides, there were two who finished secondary school. Most didn't even start this stage. All of their children are educated to at least degree level. Myself and my two sisters have five post-graduate qualifications between us. I don't say this to boast, but to shine a light on your non-point. My parents' families were fairly average for their day. Small farming, and labouring. Myself and my siblings and cousins are fairly average for today. All qualified professionals, doing OK.

    Things have improved. Incredibly.

    I know it won't suit your rhetoric, but bear in mind that you're talking to the people you're talking about.


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    #77
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Standards of living have gone up much like the rest of Europe but we still have huge numbers living below the poverty line and have not exploited our potential as we could have. i.e. we haven't prospered to our potential and if the last few years shows us anything, it is the fragility of our economy.
    It was the greedy burghers of FF and FG that showed us that.

    Now you are moving the goalposts, but no matter.

    We were way behind the rest of Europe when we gained independence and still some distance behind in the 70's .

    As for huge numbers below the poverty line , by today's standard 90% of the population in the 1920's would be below that standard and significant numbers would be below that into the 70's. Our economic progress is undeniable .

    And if the last few years has shown us anything it is not the fragility of our economy but its robustness . The biggest crash since the great depression and we are already in recovery mode.

    As for 'exploiting our potential' - what does that even mean ? How do you measure it ? It is just another sound bite and one of the reason voters shy away from SF - blasé phrases couples with luddite economics.


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    #78
    quadrifoglio verde
    Registered Users Posts: 3,670 ✭✭✭quadrifoglio verde


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Standards of living have gone up much like the rest of Europe but we still have huge numbers living below the poverty line and have not exploited our potential as we could have. i.e. we haven't prospered to our potential and if the last few years shows us anything, it is the fragility of our economy.
    It was the greedy burghers of FF and FG that showed us that.

    Can you highlight what over the last 20 years we should have done to prosper to our potential.

    Save for putting the breaks on the property market back in 2002 there was nothing really that we could have changed. This didn't happen, which resulted in property prices falling as a result of the credit drying up, thanks to external forces (retired BMW assembly workers no longer wished to loan money to the Irish banks as it was too risky to lend money anywhere).

    This resulted in the threat of a run on all of the banks, first Anglo would have been stripped, followed by mass fear, leading to mile long queues of people outside every bank as people both young and old tried to withdraw their money.
    Seeing this fear, the government guaranteed the banks. However as far as I remember, it was only Labour who voted against the guarantee, in which case you can add SF to your list of "greedy burghers".


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    #79
    comongethappy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,753 ✭✭✭comongethappy


    marienbad wrote: »
    As for 'exploiting our potential' - what does that even mean ? How do you measure it ? It is just another sound bite and one of the reason voters shy away from SF - blasé phrases couples with luddite economics.

    It sums up SF to a tee.

    Unaposable rhetoric.
    'Mom & Apple pie' stuff.

    Its also their main challenge.
    Catchphrases galore, but no solution.

    To achieve the critical mass of support they need. They must win over the sceptical voter who would prefer to see a plan rather than a sound bite.


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    #80
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    endacl wrote: »
    I look at my parents' generation. Both from rural towns such as the one you ask us to imagine. Out of six uncles and five aunts combining both sides, there were two who finished secondary school. Most didn't even start this stage. All of their children are educated to at least degree level. Myself and my two sisters have five post-graduate qualifications between us. I don't say this to boast, but to shine a light on your non-point. My parents' families were fairly average for their day. Small farming, and labouring. Myself and my siblings and cousins are fairly average for today. All qualified professionals, doing OK.

    Things have improved. Incredibly.

    I know it won't suit your rhetoric, but bear in mind that you're talking to the people your talking about.

    Great post . I love your last line , I must remember it.


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    #81
    errlloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 12,600 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    Why would I vote for them? They're economically just the socialists / people before profit but with loads of extra bigoted nationalism and without the very liberal agendas on gay marriage etc.


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    #82
    IrishProd
    Registered Users Posts: 188 ✭✭IrishProd


    It is funny how it is always the same group of boardsies here who start making these kind of threads and start ranting about SF and how evil and socio-economically illiterate they are not to mention the same old lie that they support austerity in the north and oppose it in the south.

    Civil service & public sector pay for bureaucrats, paid for by the taxpayer, you & me, should not be over 100k, it is unjustifiable

    This is thread is like a right-wing, pro-unionist, ultra-conservative love-in.

    Correct me if I am wrong but hasn't it been FF who have been at the helm of this state every single time that there has been an economic meltdown and social upheaval, when FG come in then, they tax ordinary people through the roof and cut services like FF, not so much though for people like Denis O'Brien.

    But I guess they are all economically literate and are brilliant at running a country as we have seen in the last ten years? :rolleyes:

    Wise up Marienbad, IwasFrozen, endacl & company.

    Nobody buys you're bullsh*t anymore! :)


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    #83
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    IrishProd wrote: »
    It is funny how it is always the same group of boardsies here who start making these kind of threads and start ranting about SF and how evil and socio-economically illiterate they are not to mention the same old lie that they support austerity in the north and oppose it in the south.

    Civil service & public sector pay for bureaucrats, paid for by the taxpayer, you & me, should not be over 100k, it is unjustifiable

    This is thread is like a right-wing, pro-unionist, ultra-conservative love-in.

    Correct me if I am wrong but hasn't it been FF who have been at the helm of this state every single time that there has been an economic meltdown and social upheaval, when FG come in then, they tax ordinary people through the roof and cut services like FF, not so much though for people like Denis O'Brien.

    But I guess they are all economically literate and are brilliant at running a country as we have seen in the last ten years? :rolleyes:

    Wise up Marienbad, IwasFrozen, endacl & company.

    Nobody buys you're bullsh*t anymore! :)

    No they are just less economically illiterate than SF. And I have news for you- every electorate since the foundation of the state have FF/Fg bought their bullsh*t or a variant thereof and will continue to do so.

    And I have never posted anything about SF in the north . It is only of limited interest to me as I can have no effect there as I can't vote there .


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    #84
    IrishProd
    Registered Users Posts: 188 ✭✭IrishProd


    marienbad wrote: »
    No they are just less economically illiterate than SF. And I have news for you- every electorate since the foundation of the state have FF/Fg bought their bullsh*t or a variant thereof and will continue to do so.

    Do not forget Labour, and the only reason why people bought into FF/FG for so long was that we did not have a significantly high number of highly-educated young people in Ireland like we do today.

    On that note, Sinn Féin are the mostly popular party for under 30s, and many branches in Irish universities have larger membership and are more active than the other parties for the most part. (I am a recent university graduate in political science :eek:, so I know this for a fact.)

    So much for being a party for the unemployed, dole-spongers, economic illiterates, terrorists etc eh? :rolleyes:

    As you were.


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    #85
    endacl
    Registered Users Posts: 22,231 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    Ah, sure everybody was a bit silly as a student...

    ;)


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    #86
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,444 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    I'd be interested to know how much of the apparent 18% Sinn Féin vote is the "up the ra" scummer class. They tend not to vote so that could cripple them in a general election.


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    #87
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    errlloyd wrote: »
    Why would I vote for them? They're economically just the socialists / people before profit but with loads of extra bigoted nationalism and without the very liberal agendas on gay marriage etc.

    I'd suggest trying again there
    http://www.sinnfein.ie/ga/contents/738
    http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/8549

    Is there another party that proposes an amnesty for illegals within the state?


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    #88
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    IrishProd wrote: »
    Do not forget Labour, and the only reason why people bought into FF/FG for so long was that we did not have a significantly high number of highly-educated young people in Ireland like we do today.

    On that note, Sinn Féin are the mostly popular party for under 30s, and many branches in Irish universities have larger membership and are more active than the other parties for the most part. (I am a recent university graduate in political science :eek:, so I know this for a fact.)

    So much for being a party for the unemployed, dole-spongers, economic illiterates, terrorists etc eh? :rolleyes:

    As you were.

    Lets tar everyone with the same brush as you are at it.

    If a left wing party cannot make serious headway in the greatest recession in the history of the state then no amount of university politics will make a bit of difference .

    And doing well in the coming local/European elections means little either. No cares about such elections . When it comes to the main event you will indeed see it is 'as you were'


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    #89
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Nodin wrote: »
    I'd suggest trying again there
    http://www.sinnfein.ie/ga/contents/738
    http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/8549

    Is there another party that proposes an amnesty for illegals within the state?

    These issues important as they are will make little or no difference at general election time.

    If you don't have a clue on economics then you don't have a clue.


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    #90
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    IrishProd wrote: »
    So much for being a party for the unemployed, dole-spongers, economic illiterates, terrorists etc eh? :rolleyes:

    You think university grads can't be economically illiterate? :D (I'd say terrorists too, but it's not generally held that Sinn Fein voters are terrorists, only that the party has past links with such which is rather different)


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    #91
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    marienbad wrote: »
    As for 'exploiting our potential' - what does that even mean ? How do you measure it ? It is just another sound bite and one of the reason voters shy away from SF - blasé phrases couples with luddite economics.
    If we start moaning about political parties that use vacuous soundbites we'll be here quite a while. So you don't vote for any party at all then yourself?


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