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What specifically about the Crimea referendum is "illegitimate" in the eyes of the in

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    #62
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Lemming wrote: »
    armoured vehicles suddenly managed to surround Ukranian military bases in the Crimea
    Jeeps and armoured personnel carriers parked outside army bases?
    I thought someone said "tanks in the streets" originally.


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    #63
    comongethappy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,753 ✭✭✭comongethappy


    recedite wrote: »
    Jeeps and armoured personnel carriers parked outside army bases?
    I thought someone said "tanks in the streets" originally.

    There was footage of a T-80 or two outside a ukranian base.

    Mostly APCs though, them tracked vehicles are hard on the roads.


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    #64
    comongethappy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,753 ✭✭✭comongethappy


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    The huge % turnout and huge % victory for the yes side stands out as very suspicious to me, particularly when large numbers of people said they're boycotting it.

    To borrow from Scofflaw in the main thread:

    15hbl2b.gif


    In late 2013 there were 385,462 citizens in Sevastopol, according to the Sevastopol Statistics Service. This number included children under 18 and other people not eligible to vote. However, Mykhailo Malyshev, Chair of the Crimea Supreme Council Referendum Commission, stated that in Sevastopol alone 474,137 voters participated in the “referendum,” making Sevastopol’s voter turnout 123 percent.


    Province is 58% Russian
    80% Turnout
    95% favouring joining Russia

    Almost North Korean levels of endorsement!


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    #65
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    First Up wrote: »
    My point on all this is that people getting on a high horse over Crimea have very short and very selective memories and even more selective principles.
    So I can’t condemn what Russia is doing in Crimea without making reference to and offering my opinion on every other instance of annexation/secession in history?


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    #66
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    recedite wrote: »
    The Irish "Armageddon" plan to seize Newry would not have been legit, even if militarily feasible, because while south County Down is Republican, North down is strongly Unionist. I would say the minimum size for a valid electorate is somewhere above county size. I would put it at "province" size.
    An entirely arbitrary definition.


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    #67
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    recedite wrote: »
    All true, but there has to be a certain minimum size of the "region" to form a valid electorate. It has to be capable of some measure of economic independence, and have some cultural background.
    An Island is something of an exception, because it can be supplied by sea and the people are physically isolated. So Gibraltar has remained culturally British, and derives income and supplies from the British navy.
    Crimean peninsula is almost an island between Russia and Ukraine, although attached to Ukraine by some marshland. like Gibraltar it also has a strong naval history.

    So by this measure, if the Isle of Man wanted to leave UK and join ROI, they should be allowed. But an equivalent sized town or county in Wales should not.

    The Irish "Armageddon" plan to seize Newry would not have been legit, even if militarily feasible, because while south County Down is Republican, North down is strongly Unionist. I would say the minimum size for a valid electorate is somewhere above county size. I would put it at "province" size.


    Gibraltar is not an island, neither is Crimea. Describing Crimea as being between Ukraine and Russia is not true either.

    Your definitions are entirely arbitrary and you seem to be arguing that if it is geographically convenient that then it should be allowed.

    Using Northern Ireland then, while you would be against South Down leaving the Republic, the reunification of Ulster through the annexation of Donegal by the North would be ok (subject to there being a majority in Donegal in favour following a British invasion and a British-run referendum which didn't allow for Donegal remaining part of the South). Have I got your views right?


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    #68
    iradzen
    Registered Users Posts: 23 ✭iradzen


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    The huge % turnout and huge % victory for the yes side stands out as very suspicious to me, particularly when large numbers of people said they're boycotting it.
    I wouldn't doubt, that this % is true, even if you'll ignore, that majority of people there are russians, and Crimea regions main income is from Russian naval base and Russian tourists, - imagine, that you have a choice- stay with a country without any real government at the moment and €0 in budget or join your powerfull neiborough, which is offering you money and stability ?

    By the way russians pensions and salaries are twice bigger, that same in Ukraine and they already are offering to increase Crimean's ...
    And while western media is creating scary stories about "poor" Crimean tatars, noone ever mentioned, that Tatarstan's president already came to Crimea and offered support to Crimean tatars...(Tatarstan - republic Federal subjectof Russia)


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    #69
    comongethappy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,753 ✭✭✭comongethappy


    No doubt, Crimean people would probably be better off part of Russia.

    Ukrainian economic performance since independence has been frankly terrible.

    So no one is disputing the will of the majority.

    However the manner of its execution looks highly dubious to say the least.


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    #70
    Lemming
    Registered Users Posts: 14,148 ✭✭✭✭Lemming


    iradzen wrote: »
    I wouldn't doubt, that this % is true, even if you'll ignore, that majority of people there are russians,

    What percentage of the total population are ethnic Russians? Whilst I have no doubt that they are the single largest ethnic group, are they actually the majority (as in 50.1+ %) in their own right?


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    #71
    comongethappy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,753 ✭✭✭comongethappy


    Lemming wrote: »
    What percentage of the total population are ethnic Russians? Whilst I have no doubt that they are the single largest ethnic group, are they actually the majority (as in 50.1+ %) in their own right?

    Read a few posts up!

    58% Russian

    'Russian as a first language' is 80%+


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    #72
    iradzen
    Registered Users Posts: 23 ✭iradzen


    Lemming wrote: »
    What percentage of the total population are ethnic Russians? Whilst I have no doubt that they are the single largest ethnic group, are they actually the majority (as in 50.1+ %) in their own right?
    yep, Russians are definite majority in Crimea! :)
    I actually was surprised to find out out, that there are only 60 %, I always thought - 90% ( I personally been in Crimea several times and have a friends and relatives there...so have quite a lot info from people, not from media - Crimea is now the quietest and happiest part of Ukraine)
    don't forget , that loads of people over there can not even name their nationality, as then have Russian and Ukranian ancestors...
    main language over there is Russian without any doubts...
    to make army conflict even more complicated - there is a huge probability, that Russian and Ukranian big rank officers had been studying at the same army colleges... ;)


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    #73
    Lemming
    Registered Users Posts: 14,148 ✭✭✭✭Lemming


    comongethappy wrote: »
    Read a few posts up!

    58% Russian

    'Russian as a first language' is 80%+

    Ah, missed that little bit tucked in underneath the attached datagraph


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    #74
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    comongethappy wrote: »
    No doubt, Crimean people would probably be better off part of Russia.

    Ukrainian economic performance since independence has been frankly terrible.

    So no one is disputing the will of the majority.

    However the manner of its execution looks highly dubious to say the least.
    This is pretty much it.

    I don't think anyone disputes that if an autonomous region of any country decides to leave and become part of another, then they should be permitted to do so.

    The problem is how this was executed.

    - Moving Russian troops within a foreign jurisdiction under the false pretence of protecting civilians who were never in any kind of danger.
    - Barricading and threatening the local (and legal) defence forces as well as blocking ports, borders and other points of entry.
    - Appointing political leaders behind closed doors and outside of legal procedures (making the leaders illegitimate)
    - That same leadership holding a referendum in an exceptionally short period of time, without any neutral oversight and without any option on the ballot to reject the referendum.

    So not only is the referendum itself illegitimate, the entire thing is based on a series of illegal actions, any of which individually would render the ballot invalid.

    There is no doubt that Putin has decided the time has come to start asserting Russian military might. The next step is his permanent installation as leader of the Russian federation under the false pretence of some global political emergency. As Russia is led by an oligarchy which effectively allows any leader to remain in power indefinitely, this is really just a solidified form of what's already the reality in Russia.


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    #75
    iradzen
    Registered Users Posts: 23 ✭iradzen


    seamus wrote: »
    - Moving Russian troops within a foreign jurisdiction under the false pretence of protecting civilians who were never in any kind of danger.
    - Barricading and threatening the local (and legal) defence forces as well as blocking ports, borders and other points of entry.

    1. Russian military base had been in Crimea since 19** , and Putin had all the rights to protect Russian assets and citizens.

    2. local defence forces had been actually pro-russian- they did not want to recognise new so-called "govermenent"...

    I an pretty sure , that if Obama would be on Putin's place, he would be already bombing the Kiev...


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    #76
    comongethappy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,753 ✭✭✭comongethappy


    Where are you from Iradzen?


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    #77
    iradzen
    Registered Users Posts: 23 ✭iradzen


    comongethappy wrote: »
    Where are you from Iradzen?

    born in Belarus, living in Ireland at the moment.
    My father is Ukranian.


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    #78
    Lemming
    Registered Users Posts: 14,148 ✭✭✭✭Lemming


    iradzen wrote: »
    2. local defence forces had been actually pro-russian

    That's one way of selling it. What strikes me as odd is that in the weeks running up to the refendum, all these local defence forces were
    • Remarkably well equipped. Uniformly so.
    • Had vehicles with Russian number plates
    • had Russian armoured vehicles with Russian number plates
    • And most interesting of all; not a single patch, emblem, or local insignia was to be spotted on any of these "local defence forces" up until this weekend just past. Which says something rather interesting indeed; namely that they were all ordered to take off their identifying insignia. Which would prompt the question rather rethorical question of "why"?


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    #79
    comongethappy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,753 ✭✭✭comongethappy


    "Those weren't russian troops.

    They are locals who purchased APC's & Hind helicoptors from local shops."

    Says Perma-President Putin.


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    #80
    iradzen
    Registered Users Posts: 23 ✭iradzen


    Lemming wrote: »
    That's one way of selling it. What strikes me as odd is that in the weeks running up to the refendum, all these local defence forces were
    • Remarkably well equipped. Uniformly so.
    • Had vehicles with Russian number plates
    • had Russian armoured vehicles with Russian number plates
    • And most interesting of all; not a single patch, emblem, or local insignia was to be spotted on any of these "local defence forces". Which says something rather interesting indeed; namely that they were all ordered to take off their identifying insignia. Which would prompt the question rather rethorical question of "why"?
    AH, sorry, I did not realise, that you meant actual "polite people in green" ;)
    Noone at any side of border has any doubts, who these people were ;)
    It does not make any difference- the main thing is- these forces had been called by Crimea's local government (Crimea had kind of autonomy) and local militia had been helping these forces and local habitans welcomed these sodiers ,and had been ( and still) very happy, because noone wanted to have problems as Kiev had (still have)...


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    #81
    Dannyboy83
    Registered Users Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    iradzen wrote: »
    born in Belarus, living in Ireland at the moment.
    My father is Ukranian.

    This might interest you

    Ordinary Russians and Ukrainians have been betrayed by their leaders by Mikhail Shishkin

    We truly are brother nations. My mother is Ukrainian, and my father is Russian. There are millions of such mixed families in both Ukraine and Russia. Where are you going to draw the line between one and the other? How are you going to cut the ties that bind?

    How are going to divide up Gogol? Is he a Russian or a Ukrainian classic? We share him. We share our pride in him.

    How are we going to divide up our shared shame and our shared grief – our appalling history? The annihilation of the peasantry in Russia and the Holodomor in Ukraine? There were Russians and Ukrainians among the victims and executioners. We have common enemies: ourselves.

    Our terrible common past has a death grip on both nations and is not letting us move into the future.

    The Maidan protests were stunning for the daring and courage of the people who came out on the square "for our freedom and yours." Most striking of all was the solidarity. I was gripped by admiration and envy. Here the Ukrainians were able to rise up and resist; they were not about to be brought to their knees.

    The Putin TV anchors used their propaganda news in every possible way to create an image of Maidan's defender as the Ukrainian bumpkin from the joke: crafty, greedy, stupid, and prepared to sell himself to the devil or the west; it didn't matter which, just so he'd have his lard. A country with state television of that calibre should die of shame.

    This kind of condescending attitude toward Ukrainians and the Ukrainian language has been accepted in Russia from time immemorial. The "younger brother" was loved for his cheerfulness, humour, and self-deprecation, but he remained the younger brother, and that meant he had to obey his older brother, learn from him, and try to be like him. The last few months have changed the course of history and revealed entirely different Ukrainians to Russians. The "younger brother" has turned out to be more mature than the older. Ukrainians were able to tell their embezzling government, "Gang, get out!" But we weren't.

    Naturally, I'm envious.
    You can fool all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time, but you can't fool all of the people, all of the time!


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    #82
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    djpbarry wrote: »
    So I can’t condemn what Russia is doing in Crimea without making reference to and offering my opinion on every other instance of annexation/secession in history?

    I wouldn't dream of telling you what you can or should comment on but if you apply different standards to different situations, I reserve the right to ignore your opinion.


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    #83
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    First Up wrote: »
    I wouldn't dream of telling you what you can or should comment on but if you apply different standards to different situations, I reserve the right to ignore your opinion.
    That's not what you said though:
    First Up wrote:
    My point on all this is that people getting on a high horse over Crimea have very short and very selective memories and even more selective principles.
    You accused everyone "on a high horse" with regard to Crimea of having double standards.


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    #84
    iradzen
    Registered Users Posts: 23 ✭iradzen


    Dannyboy83 wrote: »
    This might interest you
    one more peace of Western anti-Putin's propaganda ;)...
    I am living in Ireland for 13 years now, and learned not to beleive only one side of story - I am wathing BBC, CNN, ORT ( Russian propaganda ;)),Ukranian news and speak with actual people...

    all are lying ( or saying just part of story, which is convinient for them ) - some more, some less...
    so the true is somewhere in between...

    Ukranian propaganda is THE WORST, honestly - they do tell their people, that EU is waiting for them, and as soon as they'll join to EU- they'll be happy and reach and free etc.
    ... they also telling, that all Russia is in ruines, all russians are drunk bears, that just want to suck Ukranian blood...

    but in reality - Ukraine is independent for 23 years now, when USSR collapsed- they had all the resources - best land, best climate, coal, steel etc ...
    but its economical growth had been much poorer, then neihboring Belarus with "dictator" Lukashenko and socialist economy...
    I won't even mention Russia...
    everything had been stolen, and not by Russian, not by one Yanukovi4 ( I do not protect him - he is one of theafs as well) , but by their own people, some of them are now promising "freedom and prosperity" again...


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    #85
    Dannyboy83
    Registered Users Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    iradzen wrote: »
    one more peace of Western anti-Putin's propaganda ;)...
    I am living in Ireland for 13 years now, and learned not to beleive only one side of story - I am wathing BBC, CNN, ORT ( Russian propaganda ;)),Ukranian news and speak with actual people...

    all are lying ( or saying just part of story, which is convinient for them ) - some more, some less...
    so the true is somewhere in between...

    Ukranian propaganda is THE WORST, honestly - they do tell their people, that EU is waiting for them, and as soon as they'll join to EU- they'll be happy and reach and free etc.
    ... they also telling, that all Russia is in ruines, all russians are drunk bears, that just want to suck Ukranian blood...

    but in reality - Ukraine is independent for 23 years now, when USSR collapsed- they had all the resources - best land, best climate, coal, steel etc ...
    but its economical growth had been much poorer, then neihboring Belarus with "dictator" Lukashenko and socialist economy...
    I won't even mention Russia...
    everything had been stolen, and not by Russian, not by one Yanukovi4 ( I do not protect him - he is one of theafs as well) , but by their own people, some of them are now promising "freedom and prosperity" again...

    If you read the article fully, you'll see it's not so one sided.
    It actually reiterates a lot of what you've said above (which I largely agree with)

    Don't agree about Ukranian propaganda - Russian is much worse.
    I don't speak Ukraianian fluently but I speak Polish and Russian, so I can pretty much figure out Ukrainian.

    My family and friends who are able to watch multiple news sources such as you or I, tend to be much more balanced. (That goes for my Irish family and friends too!)

    I don't blame Russian people for being so brain washed, they have no free media, so they cannot help it. It annoys the hell out of me tho.


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    #86
    imitation
    Registered Users Posts: 1,815 ✭✭✭imitation


    I think one thing that struck me after speaking with Russian friends, they have no faith in their political system. Most don't like Putin, but think hes better than any alternative. Given the track record its hard to blame them.

    Ultimately though, he thinks the Crimea is going to be lose - lose for everybody, the ukraine will loose a chunk of its economy. Russia will have to deal with sanctions and reintegrating a small country, hard to see it not causing stability issues. Im failing to see how its going to benefit Putin long term, seems more like giving the Ukraine and eu the two fingers.


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    #87
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    djpbarry wrote: »
    That's not what you said though:
    You accused everyone "on a high horse" with regard to Crimea of having double standards.

    If you can point to someone complaining about Crimea who is also exercised by Israel's constant annexation of Palestinian land or the farce that was/is Kosovo, I'll be happy to exclude them.


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    #88
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    First Up wrote: »
    If you can point to someone complaining about Crimea who is also exercised by Israel's constant annexation of Palestinian land or the farce that was/is Kosovo, I'll be happy to exclude them.

    The fact that you can't conceive of someone like that is interesting. Let me ask you a different question.

    Can you find someone who is exercised by the Israeli annnexation, Kosovo and who also condemns Russia?


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    #89
    iradzen
    Registered Users Posts: 23 ✭iradzen


    Dannyboy83 wrote: »
    I don't blame Russian people for being so brain washed, they have no free media, so they cannot help it. It annoys the hell out of me tho.
    where did you get this info? ??
    why Russians do not have free media? ? ?
    they do have access to internet, satellites, radio and telephone,
    they do travel all over the world, all my friends in Russian and Belarus able to go on holidays or business in Europe, and when they do - they do not close they eyes and years...

    all people knows, which TV station have more censured, then other...

    and if some Western media would say you, that "poor" Russian people are "brain washed", do not have access to TV, and internet is blocked- please, please do not beleive!

    I dare to say, that Western people are more brainwashed, as they choose to watch only one side of story...


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    #90
    iradzen
    Registered Users Posts: 23 ✭iradzen


    imitation wrote: »
    I think one thing that struck me after speaking with Russian friends, they have no faith in their political system.

    Like we here adore Merkel , Ashton and Obama...;)
    and do beleive, that all these Irish politicans, linked with Bankirs, only think about peoples future...;)


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    #91
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    iradzen wrote: »
    1. Russian military base had been in Crimea since 19** , and Putin had all the rights to protect Russian assets and citizens.
    Which is why I used the word "within".

    Plenty of countries maintain armed forces in other jurisdictions. However they do not have the authority to use those armed forces without the consent of the host nation or unless at the request of the host nation.

    Moving those forces out of their barracks is effectively the exact same as invading.

    Putin of course has the right to protect Russian assets and citizens. But none of these were in danger. There was no fighting in Crimea and the local defence forces had not done anything "anti-Russian". The fact that the Ukrainian forces did not attack the Russian forces for fear of civilian casualties perfectly demonstrates that the reasons for invading were invalid and without any basis.
    2. local defence forces had been actually pro-russian- they did not want to recognise new so-called "govermenent"...
    Irrelevant. They were still Ukrainian defence forces. Whether they were of Russian origin has no bearing.


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