The XCase 20 years on-what's changed for Irish women

Neyite · 07-02-2012 2:50pm

MsLaura wrote: »

Ok, one can only assume there's not much of a rape problem in Ireland by default because there does not seem to be one at all you'd have to say. If anyone can show me evidence there is, I may change my feelings on that. What are the statistics?

I think if we allow the killing of human life in any circumstance it will shape the public's opinion on murder. Soon, capital punishment might seem Ok, which is not. killing of human life is murder end of story in my opinion.

The girl in this case was 14. A minor. Therefore her rapist was a pedophile in addition to a rapist. It was the rape of a child. And you dont think there is much of that in Ireland eh? Where have you been for the last 20 years?

MsLaura · 07-02-2012 2:50pm

hattoncracker wrote: »

Rape is a massive problem in this country.. It's underreported, and a lot of that has to do with attitudes towards it.

I wish I lived in your fantasy land where everything is rosy, but reality is quite different. If a woman got pregnant accidentally and had no money, and no way of raising her child on her own except on benefits and did not want to do that on principle and she wasn't emotionally ready then thats her choice.

Wait a minute, how could you possibly know it's under reported? If it's not being reported then there's no way of telling. How could you possibly know that?

MissFlitworth · 07-02-2012 2:52pm

MsLaura wrote: »

Those statistics are likely highly exaggerated. I don't see where and how all those rapes could possibly occur. But anyway, that's not the point.

1. What the..?

2. You asked for statistics on rape, reliable statistics given to you from DRCC, that's pretty much exactly what you asked for, right on point no?

jaja321 · 07-02-2012 2:53pm

MsLaura wrote: »

Those statistics are likely highly exaggerated. I don't see where and how all those rapes could possibly occur. But anyway, that's not the point. The point is, if we put circumstance into the equation, many women will lie and many babies will needlessly die. Simple as.

How are they likely highly exaggerated?

Anyway your opinion differs drastically from the majority opinion of those who voted on 2 referendum on this matter, and the ruling of the European Court of Human Rights. This is what really matters.

hattoncracker · 07-02-2012 2:53pm

MsLaura wrote: »

Those statistics are likely highly exaggerated. I don't see where and how all those rapes could possibly occur. But anyway, that's not the point. The point is, if we put circumstance into the equation, many women will lie and many babies will needlessly die. Simple as.

I don't know why you think the DRCC would or could fake statistics like that. I don't know what country or society you have been living in for the past 20 years, but it's not the same as the rest of us. Either that or you're just trolling.

You and people with opinions like you are exactly the reason why the government should have no say whatsoever in whether women go through with their pregnancy or not.

Abortion should be legal in this country, rape or not. Simple as.

hattoncracker · 07-02-2012 2:55pm

MsLaura wrote: »

Wait a minute, how could you possibly know it's under reported? If it's not being reported then there's no way of telling. How could you possibly know that?

30% of all rapes that are reported to the Rape Crisis Centre are reported to the Garda. The rest are not. That, by definition, is under-reporting.

07-02-2012 3:00pm

hattoncracker wrote: »

Abortion should be legal in this country, rape or not. Simple as.

This isn't a thread about abortion in general (or at least it wasn't). The pros and cons of abortion on-demand is something that will be debated over and over again. It would take a constitutional referendum to make it legal.

However, this thread is about the X Case. Where there is a substantial risk to the life of the mother, she is already constitutionally entitled to an abortion. The people of Ireland have voted on it, the Supreme Court has ruled on it, and still there is no government action to legislate for it.

hattoncracker · 07-02-2012 3:02pm

28064212 wrote: »

This isn't a thread about abortion in general (or at least it wasn't). The pros and cons of abortion on-demand is something that will be debated over and over again. It would take a constitutional referendum to make it legal.

However, this thread is about the X Case. Where there is a substantial risk to the life of the mother, she is already constitutionally entitled to an abortion. The people of Ireland have voted on it, the Supreme Court has ruled on it, and still there is no government action to legislate for it.

Apologies. I'm stepping away from the keyboard for a few minutes.

Honey-ec · 07-02-2012 3:08pm

MsLaura wrote: »

Those statistics are likely highly exaggerated. I don't see where and how all those rapes could possibly occur. But anyway, that's not the point. The point is, if we put circumstance into the equation, many women will lie and many babies will needlessly die. Simple as.

Oh lord. Welcome to Ignoresville.

And it's adoption, btw.

Morag · 07-02-2012 3:12pm

There are medical conditions such as cancer and pre clampsia which mean that if the pregnancy is allowed to continue that the woman will die. Currently legally in those circumstances due to the X case ruling, legal to end the pregnancy to save the woman's life.

But the cowards we have elected over the 20 years sat on their hands and refused to pass the legislation so that the policies and proceedures could be put in place.

So women who have the legal right currently to end a pregnancy who's lifes are already at risk have the added stress and pressure of having to travel to a different country for a live saving procedure. That is why this is so important.

baby and crumble · 07-02-2012 3:14pm

MsLaura banned for trolling.

fatmammycat · 07-02-2012 3:17pm

Women with unwanted pregnancies are not incubators for the childless. I hate how quick people are to throw adoption out there as if that catch-all ought to suit every woman who finds herself with a crisis pregnancy.

IvyTheTerrible · 07-02-2012 3:18pm

fatmammycat wrote: »

Women with unwanted pregnancies are not incubators for the childless. I hate how quick people are to throw adoption out there as if that catch-all ought to suit every woman who finds herself with a crisis pregnancy.

And as Sharrow mentioned above, medical conditions that endanger the life of the mother eliminate the adoption possibility anyway.

fatmammycat · 07-02-2012 3:18pm

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

And as Sharrow mentioned above, medical conditions that endanger the life of the mother eliminate the adoption possibility anyway.

Exactly.

Honey-ec · 07-02-2012 3:24pm

Unfortunately, no Goverment wants to be the one to legislate for the X case, collectively, they've all been terrified to stick their necks out.

syklops · 07-02-2012 4:18pm

Honey-ec wrote: »

Unfortunately, no Goverment wants to be the one to legislate for the X case, collectively, they've all been terrified to stick their necks out.

You would have thought every father would want the legislation to protect his daughter. Every mother to protect hers, every woman to protect herself.

Surely thats a big enough percentage of the population. Maybe as the death grip the catholic church has on the country, loosens, things will change.

Honey-ec · 07-02-2012 4:59pm

syklops wrote: »

Maybe as the death grip the catholic church has on the country, loosens, things will change.

I certainly hope so. Unfortunately, this issue tends to bring out the zealots and while they're in the minority, they're loud enough to make it seem like there's more opposition to this legislation than there actually is and that's why successive governments have been more than happy not to go poking the wasps' nest.

It also doesn't help that a significant proportion of our elected representatives are middle-aged, centre-right, Catholic conservatives.

Morag · 10-02-2012 2:31pm

http://www.change.org/petitions/the-irish-government-legislate-for-the-x-case-before-the-end-of-2012

Why This Is Important

20 years ago on February 17th 1992 a 14 year old girl, known as X, became the subject of a High Court injunction barring her from leaving the country. She was confined to Ireland to prevent her terminating her pregnancy, the result of a rape following years of sexual abuse at the hands of a neighbour. Two weeks later following a huge outpouring of sympathy and horror from all sections of society and all corners of the nation the Supreme Court ruled that when a pregnant woman’s life is in danger, including from the risk of suicide, she has the right to an abortion here in Ireland. On that date the court directed that we must legislate to allow women exercise this right.

20 years later Irish women are still waiting for legislation to allow them access to abortion where their life is in danger.

Please sign this petition and call on the government to introduce legislation in 2012 for the verdict of the Supreme Court in 1992 to legislate for the X case.

Greermua · 14-02-2012 3:30pm

fatmammycat wrote: »

Women with unwanted pregnancies are not incubators for the childless. I hate how quick people are to throw adoption out there as if that catch-all ought to suit every woman who finds herself with a crisis pregnancy.

I registered on the board just to congratulate this post. I was quite disappointed to get this response from an intelligent and usually rational friend recently. As if the bodily trauma, physical transformation and emotional repercussions of going through an unwanted pregnancy (not to mention simply creating a human being you might not want to create) outweigh removing the unwanted problem. 'There are loads of people out there who'd kill for a baby' is just not a helpful argument in this case. I still think it's absolutely bizarre that people hold with such archaic sentiment.

coffee_cake · 14-02-2012 3:33pm

tell them to go off and start chewing food for people with no teeth

jaja321 · 17-02-2012 5:09pm

From today's Irish Times.. thought this would be of interest

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0217/breaking44.html

Legislation to provide for limited access to abortion will be introduced in the Dáil next week.

The legislation, to make abortion legal where there is a “real and substantial risk to the life” of the pregnant woman, will be introduced by Socialist Party TD Clare Daly in private members’ time and will be voted on in the House on April 19th.

Over 60 organisations and individuals - including seven TDs, two Senators, trade unions, academics and doctors - have called for “immediate legislation in line with the 'X' case.”

The "Action on X Alliance" today gave a press briefing to mark the 20th anniversary of the of the High Court injunction that barred a 14-year old girl from travelling to Britain for an abortion. Known as "X", the girl had been raped.

Two days later, amid a public outpouring of sympathy for the girl and anger at the injunction, the Supreme Court ruled abortion was legal where there was a real and substantial threat to the life of the pregnant woman or girl, including suicide.

The girl at the centre of the case miscarried the pregnancy.

Patrick Nulty, Labour TD, said it was “shameful” that 20 years after the Supreme Court gave its ruling and after two referendums on the issue, six successive Governments had “failed to act”.

“It is unprecedented and has not happened since, that the Supreme would give such a clear ruling and that it is not acted on by government.”

Orla O’Connor, acting chief executive of the National Women’s Council, described the inaction of governments on the case as a “violation of women’s rights - that they are forced to travel to Britain, over 4,000 every year, to end their pregnancies”.

She said the situation for poor women with crisis pregnancies was “all the more horrific” as “very often they simply don’t have the means to travel”.

Ailbhe Smith, academic and founder of the Feminist Open Forum, had been fighting for abortion rights since the late 1970s.

“I thought at the time, as a young woman, that my country would one day stand by my right as a citizen to access abortion if I needed it. Then later I felt I was fighting for my daughter’s rights. Now it looks that I may be fighting for it for my granddaughter, if I have a granddaughter. And if I have to fight for my great-granddaughter’s rights, I will too.”

The Action on X Alliance is planning a public meeting in the Gresham Hotel, Dublin, on Tuesday evening at 7pm.

lazygal · 17-02-2012 5:20pm

As its been introduced in Private Members' time by an opposition Deputy it has zero chance of being passed. A vote will be called and the Government amendment to it will be passed. I will, however, be extremely interested to read the Official Report and how I imagine every single Deputy will give meaningless platitudes to the right to life and how awful the case was, why can't we support women here and promote other choices than abortion, blah, blah, blah. In other words, it will be the same debate the establishment in Ireland has been having since the X case.

I STRONGLY urge ALL Irish women to lobby their TDs and ask them when they intend to introduce legislation on the X case and when they intend to pass it, regardless of whether a Government or Opposition Deputy proposes it. We have spoken, abortion is permissible in certain case, but no one has bothered their hole legislating for it.

Morag · 17-02-2012 8:01pm

Action on X - Public Meeting

Tuesday, 21 February 2012
19:00 until 21:00

Gresham Hotel, O'Connell Street, Dublin 1.

Speakers include:
Vincent Browne, Journalist and Broadcaster
Anthea McTeirnan, Journalist and Reproductive Rights Activist
Dr Fiona De Londras, UCD School of Law
Mick Wallace, Independent TD for Wexford
Ailbhe Smyth, Feminist Open Forum

As yet another expert committee convenes to consider how the Government might implement the 20-year-old Supreme Court ruling on the X Case, the Action on X Alliance says: Enough!

On February 21st, 1992, the High Court issued a permanent injunction which barred a 14-year-old girl, known only as X, from leaving the country to terminate her pregnancy, the result of rape. Two weeks later the Supreme Court ruled that when a pregnant woman’s life is in danger, including from suicide, she has the right to an abortion here in Ireland.

Yet in 2012 after all the expert committees, after two referendums in which the people vindicated a woman’s right to life-saving abortion, after several court rulings doing the same and an acknowledgment from Tánaiste Eamon Gilmore that such legislation is necessary – all we’ve got is another expert committee.

The delay is inexcusable and unacceptable. Legislation is long overdue. The courts have ruled, the people have spoken – it's time for the Government to act.

The Action on X Alliance had been formed by concerned groups and individuals to campaign on the immediate passing of this ruling into law as directed by the Supreme Court and also one year after the C case judgment in the European Court of Human Rights

Morgase · 18-02-2012 8:27pm

Here's a link to the Facebook page for the public meeting in case anybody wants it:

http://www.facebook.com/events/364224653605064/

Gilldog · 24-02-2012 12:27pm

Morgase wrote: »

Here's a link to the Facebook page for the public meeting in case anybody wants it:

http://www.facebook.com/events/364224653605064/

I wasn't able to go as im not living in Dublin at the moment, but am very interested to know what the outcome of the meeting was. Will there be further events, what was the outcome etc...

Fenian Army · 24-02-2012 6:15pm

The Action on X Alliance had been formed by concerned groups and individuals

Who are these groups?

Ickle Magoo · 24-02-2012 6:28pm

Fenian Army wrote: »

Who are these groups?

There are over 60 according to some publications - I can't find a specific list but a quick google will get you some of them...

Morag · 24-02-2012 6:48pm

Gilldog wrote: »

I wasn't able to go as im not living in Dublin at the moment, but am very interested to know what the outcome of the meeting was. Will there be further events, what was the outcome etc...

There is a march being planned for the 23rd of March.

Some coverage of the event
http://soundmigration.wordpress.com/2012/02/22/action-on-x-anthea-mcteirnans-speech/

Gilldog · 24-02-2012 7:19pm

Sharrow wrote: »

There is a march being planned for the 23rd of March.

Some coverage of the event
http://soundmigration.wordpress.com/2012/02/22/action-on-x-anthea-mcteirnans-speech/[/QUOTE]

Thanks, I am following this with interest and hope that this is the start of something great.

RDM_83 again · 25-02-2012 12:19am

Hope this is not inappropriate to post here (been following the prostitution thread and understand that this is forum for female views and my reply may be more suited to politics).

But

To my mind there is a logical reason why successive government has not legislated on this issue (logical does not imply that it is ok that they have not).

As far as I am aware (writing this post with little research) the right to abortion in the UK is theoretical based on pregnancy/child being detrimental to the women mental and or physical health, subject to the approval of a Doctor*.

I cannot see a situation where a medical professional can state with 100% certainty that there is not a risk to the pregnant womans mental health, particularly as pregnancy precludes the use of certain types of medication

In effect this results in abortion on demand (I think the figure is 200,000 a year in the UK, a number that even the most ardent pro-choice advocates may find disturbing).

Here is the text of the UK act (1976)

(1)
Subject to the provisions of this section, a person shall not be guilty of an offence under the law relating to abortion when a pregnancy is terminated by a registered medical practitioner if two registered medical practitioners are of the opinion, formed in good faith—

[F1(a)
that the pregnancy has not exceeded its twenty-fourth week and that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman or any existing children of her family; or

(b)
that the termination is necessary to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman; or

(c)
that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk to the life of the pregnant woman, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated; or

(d)
that there is a substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped.]

I understand the need for a change of legislation no matter what ones opinion of abortion, I am personally know one person that who has been impacted by it. But people campaigning for X case legislation should be aware that of the legislative and practical experience of our nearest neighbour and how legislation can be applied in ways it was probably not intended.

* this story indicates that certain MD's don't even consider the need for this "I don't ask questions. If you want a termination, you want a termination."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/feb/23/sex-selection-abortions-investigated

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9102232/Abortion-investigation-doctor-caught-falsifying-sex-selection-paperwork.html

The XCase 20 years on-what's changed for Irish women

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