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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,915 ✭✭✭✭menoscemo


    Murph_D wrote: »
    Ye run a tight ship overt there. In St Anne's there's a "volunteer next week and we might relax the 'no barcode no result rule'". :)

    Not my ship, the above happened in Tymon!


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    10kish home last night, and back in this morning.
    A bit sore at the start of yesterday's run - before the run in fact, just walking around the office - not too bad at the end.
    Fine this morning, except towards the end
    usual problem this morning, trying to do all the various things (knees higher, midfoot land, lean forward blah blah blah) makes me run faster, so my pace and heart rate are creeping up all through the run. Which is a bit tiring.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    no time today, only the 6-7am slot free for 5x600 with two minutes recovery
    I didn't know how crawling straight out of bed into a run would go, but felt okay

    Something I realised a few days back - one of the pieces of running advice you see a lot is to increase your cadence. I'd obviously gone overboard on that because my cadence is usually around 190, and over 200 when I'm running faster. I don't even think about it any more, but I'm used to hearing a certain rhythm when I run. I was trying to do all the other stuff while maintaining that cadence. So recently I've been slowing that rhythm down, to maybe give myself more time for the knee lift etc etc etc...


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,044 ✭✭✭chickey2


    Did you do anything specific to increase your cadence? I've only just started measuring mine (new watch) and it's only 162 average, going up to 170 on intervals which isn't great.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,895 ✭✭✭Sacksian


    Ray - I've been trying similar stuff to you, in terms of working on form/footstrike/technique, in an effort to avoid missing 4 months every year with injury - and particularly the calf issue I had most of this year.

    I went to gait analysis last month and it seems that (possibly because I was trying to avoid injury from heelstriking) I've been landing and pushing off almost entirely from my forefoot (and really just tip-tapping rather than actually running), which puts a lot of pressure on your calf. It's got so bad that I can't stamp my entire foot down (flat) on the ground even when I try! So, I've loads of marching drills to work on.

    With regard to cadence, I got a Forerunner 220 last year and realised that my 'natural' cadence when I'm running easy is about 162-ish (which, according to a Letsrun discussion I read previously, makes it basically a form of plyometrics!), so I've been trying to monitor that, but it generally feels like a lot of effort to keep it above 170 for an easy run.

    182-185 seems to be my default session pace (from HM to 5k, I mainly adjust stride length) when I'm not being lazy, and anything above 5k pace would be 190s with the difference between 3k/mile pace being stride length, until you get to 800/400 and then it speeds up again.

    Based on your cadence, and the speed you're travelling at, I'd make sure that you're not just spinning your wheels at that high cadence (without generating much force) and try to develop the flexibility to adjust either cadence or stride length during a race/session, rather than relying on cadence solely. I sometimes mess around with this during sessions, running at the same pace but changing up cadence or stride length during an interval - possibly easier if you're running with a group though.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,370 ✭✭✭pconn062


    I'm sure you have running form advice coming out your ears at this stage, but I had some running form assessment done during the summer by Colin Griffin in the SSC and he said the most important aspect of the cycle is getting the foot down quickly. Imagine squashing an orange with your foot, it needs to be a swift downward action with as flat a foot as you can manage (not coming down on your toes or heel). So as you pull the leg through, get it planted as quickly as possible so the foot is not landing in front of the body. Also, I was exaggerating my knee lift, to the detriment of my form. Essentially if you exaggerate the knee lift the quads are taking up the slack to lift them higher as opposed to it being part of the natural process.

    It's head wrecking stuff for sure.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,370 ✭✭✭pconn062


    And to add to what Sacksian has said, drills are important for hammering this home. Marches and skips, A skip and B skip. Practice getting that foot down quickly.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    chickey2 wrote: »
    Did you do anything specific to increase your cadence? I've only just started measuring mine (new watch) and it's only 162 average, going up to 170 on intervals which isn't great.

    The things I did then are probably the things I'm trying to undo now :pac:

    If you're trying to make a change, do it first on your easy runs and it should work through to the rest of your runs. I wouldn't monitor cadence on your watch while running, but try to take more steps, even if they are short steps.

    I would only do it once a week, and only for a few minutes each time. If you focus on this too much, you might succeed in improving your cadence but at the expense of other things going out of whack.
    Sacksian wrote: »
    Based on your cadence, and the speed you're travelling at, I'd make sure that you're not just spinning your wheels at that high cadence (without generating much force) and try to develop the flexibility to adjust either cadence or stride length during a race/session, rather than relying on cadence solely. I sometimes mess around with this during sessions, running at the same pace but changing up cadence or stride length during an interval - possibly easier if you're running with a group though.

    Ah, I can dream of the days when I will be able to do more than 'run' or 'run faster' :pac:
    pconn062 wrote: »
    I'm sure you have running form advice coming out your ears at this stage, but I had some running form assessment done during the summer by Colin Griffin in the SSC and he said the most important aspect of the cycle is getting the foot down quickly. Imagine squashing an orange with your foot, it needs to be a swift downward action with as flat a foot as you can manage (not coming down on your toes or heel). So as you pull the leg through, get it planted as quickly as possible so the foot is not landing in front of the body. Also, I was exaggerating my knee lift, to the detriment of my form. Essentially if you exaggerate the knee lift the quads are taking up the slack to lift them higher as opposed to it being part of the natural process.

    I think I've had a different problem though, a lack of knee lift. My feet were coming down too early and spending too long in contact with the ground - although this was partially compensated for by the high cadence.

    (and sure what would a walker know about running anyway ;) )


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 785 ✭✭✭Notwork Error


    From what I've read on form from Magness and others is that you should never actively lift the knees. Knee lift is in direct relation to the amount of hip extension when you push off, if you have little hip extension, you will have little hip flexion and vice versa.

    http://www.scienceofrunning.com/2010/08/how-to-run-running-with-proper.html?m=1


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    stop messing with my head!!!


    :pac:


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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    Back in for session on Wednesday evening, and the good news is things seem to be on the mend. Not a clean bill of health exactly, it will take another 6-10 weeks before things are completely right, but corner turned, light at end of tunnel, and so on. No further interventions required, and I can start easing off on the achilles-specific exercises.

    Sod's law, of course, dictates that I was fairly sore yesterday and this morning. Not too bad, but enough that both days I kept the run fairly short, and I skipped the strides I was going to include yesterday. (This morning was very lazy, stayed in bed listening to the wind and didn't do my exercise routine either) Still though, not much pain in the right leg, and the left leg stayed manageable in both runs


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    another week, another parkrun. Even less prepared this time, the warmup was the walk over from the car park :) , not a day for hanging around. Had the kid with me too and he would not have been impressed if I'd dragged him out of the warm any sooner than necessary!

    Same as last week, three guys went out in front from the start and I tagged along behind somewhere. No-one chasing me this time, not a lot to report (except this was a Dublin 6W run for some reason?). Kept the pace fairly steady, worked on my hips, kept my arms going... all went ok. 18:37 in the end, being chased is worth a good ten seconds.

    The kid was under orders to run it steady, not race it, so came in relaxed enough in just over 23. Then we were both up to the track for training, an easy session for him.

    Sunday, went for a longer run, almost 16k! Last 20/30 minutes were getting sore, as expected, but generally the run went well, I felt I was keeping my form at an easy pace. Back home for some food then out again for the kids, some hill sprinting.

    this morning - day off work so was able to get out in a bit more daylight, but still up and around Tymon, finished with some strides


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    plan today was 5x800 on the way home, but on my second 800, running through a wind tunnel in Bushy park, I decided it was crazy :pac: Effort and pace were all over the place, and I was getting worried about falling branches. Did not like quitting a session after Krusty's talking to! but today was just mad. will go again Thursday


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,621 ✭✭✭ThebitterLemon


    Good to see you seem to be getting back into the swing of things. Best of luck with the return to full fitness.

    TbL


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    the guilt kept me awake last night - who could bear to make a clown sad? :(
    So I did the 5x8 this morning on the way in to work. More rain but not half as windy, at least in the park I did them, and the sky was getting lighter with each rep.
    But I did get a full head-to-toe soaking from a car on the way in, divine retribution


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,559 ✭✭✭aero2k


    RayCun wrote: »
    plan today was 5x800 on the way home, but on my second 800, running through a wind tunnel in Bushy park, I decided it was crazy :pac: Effort and pace were all over the place, and I was getting worried about falling branches. Did not like quitting a session after Krusty's talking to! but today was just mad. will go again Thursday


    It was crazy last night - I felt like someone out of "crouching tiger, hidden dragon" with all the hanging in mid air. While I was doing a sort of treadmill thing on the North Road, I saw a guy on a bike having to put a foot down and ride it like a scooter to make progress.

    A session would have been pointless - too much risk of further injury. Well done on getting the hard work done this morning, here's wishing you continued success on your recovery.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    yesterday - pushed the distance up a bit with a lap of UCD before going home. About 75 minutes total? getting a bit sore in the last half hour, especially when I stopped for a minute at some traffic lights

    this morning - back into work, 45 minutes ish


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    on a mission to raise the standard of coaching in Tallaght this weekend ;)
    A crack team of Bros Pearse coaches helicoptered in for a Level 1 course in the badlands :)
    Did this course three years ago, useful to get a refresher. There's always things you could be doing better and these sessions are a good reminder. Walks and endurance last night, throws and jumps today, sprints, hurdles, and assessments next week. Just a jog up to the track this morning and home again later for today's running


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    Sunday - off

    Monday - lap of UCD and home. Less painful at the end than last week

    this morning - 6x800 on the way to work. I do these in the morning because the long warmup run to a park on the way home gives my legs time to start niggling, putting me off the session. In the morning I have about a mile of warmup jog and into it. The downside is that it's straight after breakfast, so plenty of belching in the recoveries. (The other downside is its fecking 7am)


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    lap of UCD and home yesterday evening
    10k into work this morning
    feeling a bit creaky today but rest day tomorrow should sort that out


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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    day off Friday, and more coaching course (sprints and hurdles)
    jog up and back from Tallaght on Saturday (relays and assessments). All indoors because nobody liked the look of outdoors - so I stood by the window upstairs with a cup of tea watching the club training session in the rain below :)

    Sunday was Dublin Intermediates When you're thinking before the race "sure it'll be a good training session", then you can be sure that it might be a good training session, but it'll be a bad race! There's a video somewhere of the start of the race, you can see everyone charging off and me sauntering along at the back :pac: It might work in a road race, but in XC when you're judging your race by the people around you, you have to get in with people who will drag your best race out of you. As it was, I passed people steadily through the race but still finished well down the field. Middle two laps were back and forth with a guy from Balbriggan. I'd gain on the downhills - fly past him on the steep downhill - and let him work hard to catch up on the uphill sections (that was as much thought as I'd put into the race beforehand - use the flat and downhill bits, relax on the ups). The lap ends with an uphill, and so when he was only level with me at the end of the third lap I knew I'd drop him. Picked up a couple more people in the last lap, but one Raheny guy flew back past me in the last few hundred, and another stayed just ahead in the final sprint.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    Monday - no running, platelet donation
    yesterday - easy 70ish minutes around UCD and home
    this morning - 40ish minutes easy back in to work

    starting to feel more relaxed in my stride, but still getting sore around the 50 minute mark. no strains from Sunday, but I'm tired...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,062 ✭✭✭davedanon


    Are you a graduate of the old plasma programme, Ray? Myself and the missus were both on it, but my platelet count wasn't high enough, so she's about to make her 150th donation, while I'm stuck in the low 80s.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    no, I only started giving platelets ... I don't know, in the last few years? There have been a few breaks along the way too. So I'm still in the 120s somewhere


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,062 ✭✭✭davedanon


    RayCun wrote: »
    no, I only started giving platelets ... I don't know, in the last few years? There have been a few breaks along the way too. So I'm still in the 120s somewhere


    So you have your ceramic pelican then...


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    yeah, in a box somewhere


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    yesterday - again, 70ish minutes around UCD and home
    this morning - 50ish back in
    a bit tight and sore around the 10k mark yesterday, eased off by the end of the run. Same again this morning, though by then I was almost in


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    I was looking back over the last month or two of training on Strava, and the amount of 'rest days' was shocking, along with tiny weekly distances - once over 70k, most more like 60k. Then last weekend I stayed in bed rather than go out for an early run in the rain, and I knew chances of running Sunday were slim. So.

    Dragged myself out Saturday afternoon for a run. Hardly ever run on a weekend afternoon, it feels wrong, got 10k done anyway.
    Sunday, as expected, was a write-off. Up early enough for the drive to Dungarvan for the kid to run, back home around 5, knackered.
    Monday: dentist in the afternoon but got out afterwards for a bit over an hour
    Tuesday - Friday: runmutes with a lap of UCD at one end
    Saturday: great plans to get up early and run, but not very realistic with the club party on Friday evening. Managed to drag myself down to Tymon in time to steward at the parkrun. Upside to the bad weather was that the kid bailed out of training, so I got out myself for a quick run
    Sunday: straight out of bed to run and didn't like it, stiff and sore around the ankles. Stopped a few hundred m down the road and turned back, but by the time I was home again I'd loosened out and continued on past.

    86k for the week. That should be a minimum really, will have to keep this up.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    88k for the week
    Mostly runmutes and laps of UCD

    Thursday was a horrible run - sore at the start and when that wore off the 'gastric distress' :rolleyes: started. Stop/start the shortest route home!
    Work party on Friday evening, and though I was out early I was a mess Saturday morning - tired, sweaty, headachy blah. Stopped after 30 minutes, went out again in the afternoon when I felt more human

    Fairly tired overall, ankles stiff in the mornings and usually sore enough by the end of the runs


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭Chartsengrafs


    Hi Ray, I've been trawling through threads on lactate testing (because it's Christmas Eve - so what else would I be doing!) and was wondering if you availed of any of the testers on the thread you started earlier this year?

    And more importantly if you did, was it of benefit? Bearing in mind it's all down to how these things are ultimately utilised. Thanks.


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