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Post Scrappage Rant

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Comments

  • #62
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    PaintDoctor wrote: »
    It's going to be hilarious when people try to trade these cars in after a year or two. I spoke to one dealer recently who said he doesn't see Megane's as 21k cars anymore, he sees them as 15k cars, and reckons he'd give 10k for one a year old.

    I doubt many of them will be getting traded in after a year or two anyway. Anyone that got a car on scrappage is comign from owning a car over 10 years old. We are not talking about the people who upgrade to the same model every 2 years.

    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    Some of these cars where on sale for E8k, what will they be worth in 10 years time?.

    Anout the same as if the same car was €15k new.


  • #63
    Owen
    Registered Users Posts: 12,683 ✭✭✭✭Owen


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    We are not talking about the people who upgrade to the same model every 2 years.

    I think you're underestimating vanity. People are for the first time in years in new car. They're going to think to themselves that if the car was 21k new, and they bought it for 15k as part of a super dooper deal, maybe it's still worth 15k and they would only have to extend out their HP and keep the payments the same to buy a new one.


  • #64
    Gophur
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,921 ✭✭✭Gophur


    What price are the 2010 scrappage purchases making, second-hand?


  • #65
    -Chris-
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,035 ✭✭✭✭-Chris-


    It has to be remembered in all this discussion, that where you see scrappage discounts of €5k or so, only €1,250-1,500 was ever covered by the Gov't, the rest is discount offered by the importer/dealer.

    This in particular is going to be the bit that hurts second hand values - Gov't scrappage was available on models from virtually every brand, but some brands went a step further and have now established an image of being a "discount" brand.

    After Scrappage is gone, people will still expect the deep discounts, or will only be able to trade in to the same brand they bought from as that's the only place that has the margins to inflate the trade-in price to the level the customer needs.

    I'd expect that those who have bought deep-discount Renaults (for example) will find that they're now "stuck" in the Renault network because of the trade-in value that will be offered by other dealers. I'd also expect that brands like Renault who have bought the market, will soon find that they've damaged their brand value very deeply.


  • #66
    Leonard Hofstadter
    Registered Users Posts: 5,540 ✭✭✭Leonard Hofstadter


    -Chris- wrote: »
    I'd expect that those who have bought deep-discount Renaults (for example) will find that they're now "stuck" in the Renault network because of the trade-in value that will be offered by other dealers. I'd also expect that brands like Renault who have bought the market, will soon find that they've damaged their brand value very deeply.

    Yes it will indeed be very interesting to see what happens to people who bought the Renaults that were virtually given away (even though with all this giving away of cars they still were outsold by Ford, VW and Toyota).

    I suppose Renault's thinking is that if the new cars are much better put together then people will come back and buy more of them, especially as Renault offers a five year warranty. That could prove to be a very attractive proposition.

    I think even if Renaults are properly made now that this will not be enough to save them - many people still believe that VWs are "great cars" even though VW hasn't made especially reliable cars for a good 10-15 years and have made some extremely unreliable ones, such as the 1.4 petrol Golf, which lots of people bought. I mean if a Fiat suffered HG failure the typical attitude is "serves you right for buying a Fiat - you should have known better" but if you bought a Toyota burning lots of oil or one that needs new gearbox bearings it's a case of "really bad luck" (even though both faults are common with several Toyotas).

    Stereotypes about cars are extremely hard to shake off in Ireland, the average buyer has SFA interest in cars and relies heavily on what the man in the pub told them.


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  • #67
    gazmc18
    Registered Users Posts: 99 ✭✭gazmc18


    Renaults had bad trade in value even before the scrappage scheme (apart from clio possibly) Some scrappage models will hold their value better than others, the same way they always have in comparison to each other.

    I dont see the problem with cars being a foreign import as long as they make this country money!
    The motor industry currently provides thousands of jobs but not for long. Now the scappage is gone there are big changes on the way and the only benefit we'll have is loads of 11 reg cars that'll all be wrecked in a few years as they aren't at all suitable for the use their being used for.

    Surely this will benefit mechanics and service centres too?

    The scrappage scheme certainly is not all rosey, but it has benefitted a lot of people and companys and the economy. The industry as a whole will be worse off without it.


  • #68
    Gophur
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,921 ✭✭✭Gophur


    "Given away" is a gross exaggeration. They were sold into a competitive market at a discount necessary to get the volumes achieved.

    If this range of Renault prove to be a reliable, economical mode of transport their value will hold better than some may think.

    As for the non-Renault dealers? These guys specialise in running down cars, to achieve lower purchase prices for themselves. Every one of those denigrating the Renault range would buy one in the morning if they though they would turn a profit.


  • #69
    gazmc18
    Registered Users Posts: 99 ✭✭gazmc18


    As for the non-Renault dealers? These guys specialise in running down cars, to achieve lower purchase prices for themselves. Every one of those denigrating the Renault range would buy one in the morning if they though they would turn a profit.
    Talk about gross exagerations!

    Of course any dealer would buy any car if they can turn a profit, thats the name of the game. But the fact is with Renaults you got to buy them cheap to turn any profit!
    Everyone will get what their car is worth these days (which doesnt mean what the owner thinks its worth) as if one dealer wont give it to you the next one will because the new cars need to be sold too.


  • #70
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 23,339 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    -Chris- wrote: »
    ........... I'd also expect that brands like Renault who have bought the market, will soon find that they've damaged their brand value very deeply.

    Being honest Renault didn't have a great name anyway, the majority of new car buyers rightly or wrongly wouldn't consider one.


  • #71
    Gophur
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,921 ✭✭✭Gophur


    gazmc18 wrote: »
    Talk about gross exagerations!

    Of course any dealer would buy any car if they can turn a profit, thats the name of the game. But the fact is with Renaults you got to buy them cheap to turn any profit!
    Everyone will get what their car is worth these days (which doesnt mean what the owner thinks its worth) as if one dealer wont give it to you the next one will because the new cars need to be sold too.

    Not a gross exaggeration at all.

    I have dealt with far too many so-called salesmen whose primary weapon is to try to denigrate anything they are not currently selling.
    It's the same BS with the non-D plates, a tool used by poor salesmen to run down the value of cars. Just listen to the waffle from any of them when you try to trade a car?


    My last trading experience resulted in me getting a car for a net €12,000 better deal. I bought the car at a reasonable price (some €7,000 less than I was being quoted by main dealer) and sold my old car at a fair, market price (some €5,000 more than I was being offered by the same, main dealer)

    The dealers drive the prices of used cars. The same guys complaining about the market are the same guys driving the market.


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  • #72
    Squall19
    Closed Accounts Posts: 565 ✭✭✭Squall19


    DHFrame wrote: »
    Scrappage? . I believe this scrappage scheme has destroyed the Private Used Car Market, why buy a 10k 2008 car when you can get a brand new for 15k by trading in your Toyota Starlet.

    What a mess. We fail, then make it worse. **** Stains.

    Your 2008 car is not worth 10k, that's the problem.

    Used car market who gives a ****!!

    Is there a used television market, used fridge market, used treadmill market?

    I hope they bring out a new scrappage scheme, 0% interest loans from all state owned banks, with the option of paying early, free servicing from the dealers and other freebies from the manufacture themselves.

    Toyota, BMW, Audi, VW etc make **** all from used cars, just like Argos make **** all from used televisions, fridge's, treadmill's etc.

    They will make sure your 3 year old car is worth alot less than 10k in the years to come and I am delighted, as I would love a brand new car.

    Not a 3 year old yoke paddy and mary were making babies in on the way to oxygen.


  • #73
    Beta Ray Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 3,533 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    Scrapping = Disaster!

    We are just sending money out of the country.
    We do not make cars in this country So WHY Oh WHY are we supporting a Car Industry that doesn't exist!?

    I am so upset with the motoring situation in Ireland (Between the state of the roads, fuel prices, Micky mouse mechanics, the price of cars, VRT, insurance and TAX) that I've given up hope of ever owning a Mitsubishi Evo or other high performance car ever again which is quite sad really.

    I've gone and bought a Motorcycle instead. Hope the government and RSA will keep their grubby little hands on Motorcyclists. The gas thing is though, I'm likely knocked off my bike at some point and be another casualty on Irish roads all because of the mess that exists in Ireland

    :(


  • #74
    -Chris-
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,035 ✭✭✭✭-Chris-


    Gophur wrote: »
    Not a gross exaggeration at all.

    I have dealt with far too many so-called salesmen whose primary weapon is to try to denigrate anything they are not currently selling.
    It's the same BS with the non-D plates, a tool used by poor salesmen to run down the value of cars. Just listen to the waffle from any of them when you try to trade a car?

    And it wouldn't be unusual at all for a customer to tell a salesperson about how he can buy a car cheaper in another dealer, in the UK, in a private sale.
    It's also not unusual for them to go through a prospective car with a fine tooth comb to use any damage, mileage, colour, history etc. to reduce the price of the car they're buying.
    Even if it's the customer's favourite colour, they'll say they hate it in order to try and get a few more quid off the price.

    Either side in a negotiation wants to emphasise the value of what they have and deflate the value of what the other person is offering. It's just the way it is.

    Treat it like a game and you'll start to find it a lot more fun :)

    Gophur wrote: »
    My last trading experience resulted in me getting a car for a net €12,000 better deal. I bought the car at a reasonable price (some €7,000 less than I was being quoted by main dealer) and sold my old car at a fair, market price (some €5,000 more than I was being offered by the same, main dealer)

    OK, so the dealer had their pricing wrong and you walked (i.e. you were determining the value of the car), but yet...
    Gophur wrote: »
    The dealers drive the prices of used cars. The same guys complaining about the market are the same guys driving the market.

    ... this indicates that the dealer drives the value of the car rather than the customer.

    The value of the car is where the price the dealer wants/needs to get for it intersects with the price the customer is prepared/can afford to pay for it.
    No more, no less. Ever.


  • #75
    gazmc18
    Registered Users Posts: 99 ✭✭gazmc18


    Toyota, BMW, Audi, VW etc make **** all from used cars, just like Argos make **** all from used televisions, fridge's, treadmill's etc.

    Its the opposite, its the new cars that have no money in them, used cars is where a salesman can make money.

    Originally Posted by Gophur viewpost.gif
    Not a gross exaggeration at all.

    I have dealt with far too many so-called salesmen whose primary weapon is to try to denigrate anything they are not currently selling.
    It's the same BS with the non-D plates, a tool used by poor salesmen to run down the value of cars. Just listen to the waffle from any of them when you try to trade a car?

    Surely a part of any good salesman's job is to professionally de-value a car they are trying to buy and up the value of the one they are trying to sell? They will tell you the price they need/want to deal at, all you gotta do is say no if it dont suit. Iam not from Dublin but fact is Monaghan or Cavan plates dont sell just as quick in Dublin as a D plate's. Not the dealers fault thats just Dub's for ya!:)


  • #76
    gazmc18
    Registered Users Posts: 99 ✭✭gazmc18


    The dealers drive the prices of used cars. The same guys complaining about the market are the same guys driving the market.

    Not true either, who ruined the market on 08 Petrol cars? certainly was not the dealers! Everything else is supply vs demand that drives the used car prices.


  • #77
    Beta Ray Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 3,533 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    gazmc18 wrote: »
    Not true either, who ruined the market on 08 Petrol cars? certainly was not the dealers! Everything else is supply vs demand that drives the used car prices.

    T'was those dummy greens that ruined it

    They ruined everything really, TAX and VRT changes they brought in are a joke.

    Made expensive cars more affordable but still only to the very wealthy, and average petrol cars that the majority of us buy a bit more expensive.

    Again buying a Car in Ireland is not economical anymore. If you were living in a large town or City you could probably get taxi's everywhere and save money. :confused:


  • #78
    Gophur
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,921 ✭✭✭Gophur


    grahambo wrote: »
    T'was those dummy greens that ruined it

    They ruined everything really, TAX and VRT changes they brought in are a joke.

    Made expensive cars more affordable but still only to the very wealthy, and average petrol cars that the majority of us buy a bit more expensive.

    Again buying a Car in Ireland is not economical anymore. If you were living in a large town or City you could probably get taxi's everywhere and save money. :confused:

    I'm all for nailing culprits when it is due but the CO2 based VRT system was not a GREEN Party initiative. They got the blame because they supported it, but the change was initiated by the previous FF led Government of which the Green Party were not part of. Brian Cowen, as Minister for Finance, invited submissions for the formulation of a new system and we ended up where we are now.

    The single biggest mistake was the failure to put all cars, pre and post 2008 on the same taxation system.


  • #79
    Solnskaya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭Solnskaya


    Squall19 wrote: »
    Used car market who gives a ****!!

    Is there a used television market, used fridge market, used treadmill market?
    Any idea of the level of mark-up on spare parts? It is the "Used Car" market that makes the manufacturers most of their profits. As a simple trial, pop into a dealer and order a car in spares format, ie piece by piece and you will have the most expensive car ever to be constructed. As another piece of down to earth reality, do you have any idea of how many people rely on the spare parts industry for their livelihood? This includes those employed by main dealers.
    It is an enormous industry and it relies on people driving "older" models that need more spares. I know the scale because I am involved in maintaining a particular piece of equipment which is used to handle almost every main dealer spare parts order on a daily basis. Spares are a massive profit center from both an employment and an industry point of view.


  • #80
    DHFrame
    Registered Users Posts: 402 ✭✭DHFrame


    Squall19 wrote: »
    Your 2008 car is not worth 10k, that's the problem.

    Used car market who gives a ****!!

    Is there a used television market, used fridge market, used treadmill market?

    I hope they bring out a new scrappage scheme, 0% interest loans from all state owned banks, with the option of paying early, free servicing from the dealers and other freebies from the manufacture themselves.

    Toyota, BMW, Audi, VW etc make **** all from used cars, just like Argos make **** all from used televisions, fridge's, treadmill's etc.

    They will make sure your 3 year old car is worth alot less than 10k in the years to come and I am delighted, as I would love a brand new car.

    Not a 3 year old yoke paddy and mary were making babies in on the way to oxygen.

    Your 2008 car is not worth 10k, that's the problem.

    Ah ****. Isn't it. I am so sure I saw some 10k cars being sold. Must be wrong.

    Used car market who gives a ****!!

    What do you think the answer to this one is?

    Is there a used television market, used fridge market, used treadmill market?

    No. Why the *u*k would there be? A TV costs the same as one alloy wheel. It's not even a comparison. Whats your point?

    I hope they bring out a new scrappage scheme, 0% interest loans from all state owned banks, with the option of paying early, free servicing from the dealers and other freebies from the manufacture themselves.

    0% loan with the option to pay off early? I cant tell if your serious or not. If you are, you are definitely drinking. Money for free.....pahhh

    Toyota, BMW, Audi, VW etc make **** all from used cars, just like Argos make **** all from used televisions, fridge's, treadmill's etc.

    Correct. Private used car market = nothing to do with manufacturers. Whats your point?

    They will make sure your 3 year old car is worth alot less than 10k in the years to come and I am delighted, as I would love a brand new car.

    Who will? And what will you do with your old one when you want the new one?

    Not a 3 year old yoke paddy and mary were making babies in on the way to oxygen.

    You think Paddy and Mary were making babies, not only on the way to Oxygen, but in a 3 year old car? lol. You are drinking.


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