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Referendum(s)

2»

Comments

  • #32
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,468 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Eww, please tell me you're joking.
    +1
    We would be an international laughing stock.
    we already are though

    Banking
    Nama
    political corruption and incompetence
    etc etc etc


  • #33
    Kevster
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,980 ✭✭✭Kevster


    prinz wrote: »
    No and No. How's that for a vote?

    Having a harp is really not that unique as a national emblem tbh, other countries have animals, objects and mythological creatures etc.
    For Christ's sake dude - I said that it's the only national emblem that contains a musical instrument.

    Anyway, thank you for all of the responses. I really appreciate them. THe flag idea seems to have some support but maybe not the language. To be honest, when I was still living in Ireland, I'd have been all against having Irish as our main language too. However, as I'm now technically a foreigner in the UK, I've grown to appreciate everything Irish.

    Please do'nt start discussing the national anthem, as that is not what the topic is about.


  • #34
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Kevster wrote: »
    For Christ's sake dude - I said that it's the only national emblem that contains a musical instrument.

    .....and? :confused:


  • #35
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    prinz wrote: »
    .....and? :confused:
    And it's unique. Looks like someone got up on the wrong side of the bed today Mr. Grumpy pants.


  • #36
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Kevster wrote: »
    Anyway, thank you for all of the responses. I really appreciate them. THe flag idea seems to have some support but maybe not the language. To be honest, when I was still living in Ireland, I'd have been all against having Irish as our main language too. However, as I'm now technically a foreigner in the UK, I've grown to appreciate everything Irish.
    I do support changing the flag because let's face it the one we have at the moment is crap. Howver I don't think the flag of Leinster should represrnt the entire country.

    I understand were you are coming at in regards the language but ask yourself this, how would you like to replace your everyday language? We don't want to either for obvious practical reasons.


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  • #37
    limklad
    Registered Users Posts: 1,980 ✭✭✭limklad


    Mrmoe wrote: »
    Changing the flag might not be a bad idea but I don't think it would necessarily be something to do in the short term. It would definitely be something to look at when re-unification with the North occurs. I do not think changing priorities towards Irish away from English is practical though, as other posters have said it actually gives us an advantage compared to a lot of other countries who do not have it as their main first language.
    If you talk about Unity with northern Ireland the Irish Flag is perfect representation of the Traditions of Ireland.

    For those who do not know what our Flag means, here it is.

    Green Strip: Stands for Irish Nationalist (Catholics) Tradition.
    Orange Strip: Stands for Irish Unionist (Protestants) Tradition.
    White in the Middle: Stands for Peace and Unity between the two Traditions.


    Over the years of the troubles, I always taught it was hypocrisy that when Sinn Fein and others in the North waving the Flag in anger against the Unionist.


  • #38
    Bottle_of_Smoke
    Registered Users Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭Bottle_of_Smoke


    limklad wrote: »
    Over the years of the troubles, I always taught it was hypocrisy that when Sinn Fein and others in the North waving the Flag in anger against the Unionist.

    Not really what they were doing. Who was 'the unionist'? :D

    The provincial flag for a 32-county Ireland would be ideal for me but it is too complicated as is. Perhaps they could take an element from each on a plain blue background for a simpler symbol


  • #39
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    limklad wrote: »
    If you talk about Unity with northern Ireland the Irish Flag is perfect representation of the Traditions of Ireland.
    The four provinces flag is a better representation. I contains the flag of all four past kingdoms. Including Ulster.


  • #40
    Lockstep
    Registered Users Posts: 9,029 ✭✭✭Lockstep


    As much as I like the four flags, using them together as a flag itself is impractical.

    Miniscule flags are needed for soldiers uniforms for example, and even a tiny badge of the tricolour or any one of the individual provincial flags is recognisable. They would too miniscule to be visible when merged into one flag.


  • #41
    wonderfulname
    Registered Users Posts: 3,943 ✭✭✭wonderfulname


    Kevster wrote: »
    I would like to have Irish as our only primary language, and English as secondary.

    Well your in luck!!
    Article 8
    1. The Irish language as the national language is the first official language.
    2. The English language is recognised as a second official language.
    3. Provision may, however, be made by law for the exclusive use of either of the said languages for any one or more official purposes, either throughout the State or in any part thereof.

    And I like our flag, gets us confused with Italy once in a blue moon, Italy rocks.


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  • #42
    Kevster
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,980 ✭✭✭Kevster


    wonderfulname wrote: »
    And I like our flag, gets us confused with Italy once in a blue moon, Italy rocks.
    It's more likely to be confused with the Ivory Coast's flag, which is the mirror-image of ours.

    Which act did you quote from, be the way?

    Edit: I can see that it's the constitution act (http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/attached_files/html%20files/Constitution%20of%20Ireland%20(Eng)Nov2004.htm) - i.e. Bunreacht na hÉireann


  • #43
    Lockstep
    Registered Users Posts: 9,029 ✭✭✭Lockstep


    Kevster wrote: »
    It's more likely to be confused with the Ivory Coast's flag, which is the mirror-image of ours.

    Which act did you quote from, be the way?

    Edit: I can see that it's the constitution act (http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/attached_files/html%20files/Constitution%20of%20Ireland%20(Eng)Nov2004.htm) - i.e. Bunreacht na hÉireann

    When I was on recruit camp with the RDF, one poor lad's uniform had the Irish flag on back to front. Poor guy was sporting the heraldry of the Ivory Coast.


  • #44
    aDeener
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,487 ✭✭✭aDeener


    sparkling sea wrote: »
    I think the Irish flag is fine as it is so I would be against changing it unless someone had a good reason for doing so.

    The national anthem is in Irish and many people can't sing it because the don't know the words, also only a small minority of people who know the words actually know the meaning of the words.

    I think something like Ireland's Call would be better, either way I would like the anthem to be sung in English so that everyone could have a chance of learning it.
    :rolleyes:


  • #45
    mrboswell
    Registered Users Posts: 1,188 ✭✭✭mrboswell


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    The current flag (despite being incorrectly described all over the place as "green white and gold") is green, white and orange, symbolising peace (white) between green ("native Irishmen" ?) and orange (orangemen).

    So that should stay.

    I disagree - Wasn't the flag originally used to represent the claim over a united Ireland?

    Since Ireland is not united yet shouldn't the orange part be dropped until Ireland is actually united?


    With regard to the Irish language - so long as we treat it as and teach it in our schools as a foreign language it will never take any form of serious foothold.

    To say that making english our second language will distance us from other english speaking countries is rubbish - there are plenty of countries that speak english as their second language far better than we can speak Irish.

    It is more likely that english would thrive in Ireland as a second language due to its prevalence around the world while Irish could remain our main language.

    That will never happen though. I fear that without drastic changes the Irish language is effectively dead.


  • #46
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    mrboswell wrote: »
    IWith regard to the Irish language - so long as we treat it as and teach it in our schools as a foreign language it will never take any form of serious foothold.
    Agreed.
    mrboswell wrote: »
    To say that making english our second language will distance us from other english speaking countries is rubbish - there are plenty of countries that speak english as their second language far better than we can speak Irish.
    These countries English as their second language with another language as their first. Their motivation to learn English is to improve their career opportunities and utilize the huge amount of English language media.

    This doesn't work the other way around. The motivation to learn Irish for career or media oppertunities simply does not exist. Quite the opposite in fact. Where we to start speaking Irish it would have a negitive effect on such industries as tourism or the servicing of Transnational Coperations which benifite from our ability to speak English.
    mrboswell wrote: »
    It is more likely that english would thrive in Ireland as a second language due to its prevalence around the world while Irish could remain our main language.

    That will never happen though. I fear that without drastic changes the Irish language is effectively dead.
    English already does trive. 99.9% of the population speak the language fluently. There is no need nor motivation for our five million or so people to spend countless hours learning a new language.

    With English, the number one spoken language in the world by total number of speaker, the most prevelent language in the country. There is simply no motivational factor to learn Irish. Especially en masse.


  • #47
    Kevster
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,980 ✭✭✭Kevster


    I believe he was implying that if Irish was treated strictly as our first language, then English would still thrive. How long would it actually take to 'transfer' everyone into speaking Irish? We already have the basics of it and could pick it up. Children/tenagers in school might find the transition difficult, but children starting school wouldn't. It would surely take just one generation or less for a complete overhaul.

    Kevin


  • #48
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Kevster wrote: »
    I believe he was implying that if Irish was treated strictly as our first language, then English would still thrive. How long would it actually take to 'transfer' everyone into speaking Irish? We already have the basics of it and could pick it up. Children/tenagers in school might find the transition difficult, but children starting school wouldn't. It would surely take just one generation or less for a complete overhaul.
    But what of the Older Generation? They wouldn't be able to pick up the language and probably wouldn't be too keen on the idea of half the country speaking Irish while they speak English.


  • #49
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,468 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    it'll take a lot longer than a gneration. don't foget most of the current generation speak barely a word of Irish and many resent it due to the way it was taught. This resentment will be passed onto kids in many cases and will take decade and decade to mean out.

    I know (remember) little Irish, never speak it, see no need for it. I'd rather we taught our kids a useful language like French, German, SPanish or Chinese instead. English and two foreign language would be much better than Eng, Irish and one foreign language and put us on par with most other EU countries.


  • #50
    Denerick
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,488 ✭✭✭Denerick


    Kevster wrote: »
    I believe he was implying that if Irish was treated strictly as our first language, then English would still thrive. How long would it actually take to 'transfer' everyone into speaking Irish? We already have the basics of it and could pick it up. Children/tenagers in school might find the transition difficult, but children starting school wouldn't. It would surely take just one generation or less for a complete overhaul.

    Kevin


    I believe you are asking two questions here, so I'll answer both appropriately.

    1) In terms of a national strategy aimed at converting an English speaking nation into a Gaelic one, I believe there is only one modern precedent - Israel. The Israelis succesfully managed to make Hebrew the primary language of the new state, despite its long decline over the previous 300 years. Though even at that, it was infinitely more widespread in Israel in 1948 than Gaelic was in Ireland in 1922.

    The only way one could feasibly envisage Irish becoming our primary language would be if the entire education system was forced to communicate as Gaelige. Try to do that, and there will be a revolution. See answer number 2.

    2) Reviving Irish is a pathetic cause and a symptom of a nation and a people who are insecure about what they are. Irish was on the decline ever since O'Connell famously insulted it in the 1840s, and after the famine it had effectively died as a primary language for the vast majority of the Irish people. The struggle since then has been influenced by a quasi authoritarian 'Gaelicism', an ideology so pernicious and self defeating that it led to 70 years of incompetence, povery, and emigration in this country. The obsession with 'self sufficiency', 'the noble Gael', and maintaining this dead language is embarassing for our national pysche and for our collective sense of identity. Ireland has a rich cultural heritage, but it loses most of its vitality when its directed top down by the State on an unwilling people.

    If Irish is to have any future, it must be a grassroots movement, it must spring up from underneath the pretty rural streams and once again blossom into a national language. However, the dead hand of the State in this area has proven time and time again to be counterproductive.

    Let the individual and the people decide what is their national culture. Please, lets put an end to the chauvinistic State. One would have hoped and prayed that it died along with De Valera, but alas, its with us still.


  • #51
    Kevster
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,980 ✭✭✭Kevster


    Denerick wrote: »
    lIf Irish is to have any future, it must be a grassroots movement, it must spring up from underneath the pretty rural streams and once again blossom into a national language. However, the dead hand of the State in this area has proven time and time again to be counterproductive.
    Indeed, but people who are elected to government are invariably too stupid to see that a grass-roots approach is the way forward (just as Mr. Bush was stupid to think he could make Iraq a 'free' place by bombing the **** out of it). No, such things require the seeds to be planted at - as you've mentioned the grass roots level.

    I regard this issue as closed now and will not be further responding. Make the ashes of this thread as you please.

    Kevin


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  • #52
    Deise Musashi
    Registered Users Posts: 622 ✭✭✭Deise Musashi


    1. Irish is an all but dead language.
    Today, we are a solidly Anglophone nation, with only about 72,000 people (about 10,000 less than the attendance for an All-Ireland football final) claiming on Census 2006 that they spoke Irish on a daily basis
    By way of comparison Esperanto has about two million speakers worldwide. That's not even a national language and more people use it!

    2. Most Europeans already speak English, so we have no need to learn German, French, Italian et al in order to communicate and do business with these nations.

    3. Let's learn Mandarin Chinese and Spanish in schools, opens up markets where these are often the only languages spoken. Emerging economies that do not already have large English speaking demographics.

    4. English is the language of Science, not to mention Hollywood and much of the internet. As such it's only getting stronger, while Irish is in steady decline. Why hobble our nation further by discarding one of the few plus points of doing business here, we all speak "their" language.

    I like the idea of the Harp as our flag.

    Maybe a Golden Harp on a white background once peace is achieved?


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