The most and least Gaelic counties?

robp · 01-03-2015 5:22pm

newmug wrote: »

Exactly. Ever notice the way travellers sometimes have "bigshot" English names? Stokes, Joyce, Dukes, Hand, Power, Price, Nevin etc.? These were the people Cromwell deposed and forced to go west, not your average Paddy Murphy or Sean O'Reilly. Travellers still have strong ties with Ballinasloe and Rathkeale, the first main towns their ancestors while migrating across the country. A lot of them just stopped there and went no further.

I don't know specifically the evidence for this but just a point of information on the surnames. Joyce is long associated with Connaught. Power is probably French and is so widespread in the south east I don't think it could be associated with any one class. Dukes in Ireland might be Anglicized Gaelic name but the others seem pretty English.

dubhthach · 01-03-2015 5:28pm

Jesus. wrote: »

Humour will not be tolerated on this Board :rolleyes:

Nor will questioning a moderator's direction, last time I looked it carried a 2 week "tarriff"

dubhthach · 01-03-2015 5:31pm

As for Orkney, unsurprising it shows an admixed population which clusters between Mainland Scotland and Scandinavia. In general it's regarded to have had very little in way on inward migration between the 13th and 19th century, obviously with setting up of Naval base in Scapa Flow and the modern Gas/oil industry this has contrubition to inward migration. Still according to "People of British Isles" project you can identify which island a Orkney islander (with deep ancestry in islands) comes from based off a genetic test.

dubhthach · 01-03-2015 5:34pm

robp wrote: »

I don't know specifically the evidence for this but just a point of information on the surnames. Joyce is long associated with Connaught. Power is probably French and is so widespread in the south east I don't think it could be associated with any one class. Dukes in Ireland might be Anglicized Gaelic name but the others seem pretty English.

I'd agree, if anything in Connacht alot of the travellers surnames are native to Connacht but do reflect major land holding families up until the 17th century. So for example the Ward's of Ballymacward were heridetary poetic families to the "Kingdom of Uí Maine". McDonagh's and Connors obviously point to major families of the Uí Briúin Aí, Joyce and Barrett obviously been major landholding families of "Old English" background.

AngloIrishMan · 01-03-2015 8:13pm

newmug wrote: »

Exactly. Ever notice the way travellers sometimes have "bigshot" English names? Stokes, Joyce, Dukes, Hand, Power, Price, Nevin etc.? These were the people Cromwell deposed and forced to go west, not your average Paddy Murphy or Sean O'Reilly. Travellers still have strong ties with Ballinasloe and Rathkeale, the first main towns their ancestors while migrating across the country. A lot of them just stopped there and went no further.

I read somewhere that travelling peoples separated from the settled Irish between 1000 and 2000 years ago. They are as racially distinct from the settled Irish as the Icelandic people are from the Norwegians according to this source.

Jesus. · 01-03-2015 9:33pm

dubhthach wrote: »

Nor will questioning a moderator's direction, last time I looked it carried a 2 week "tarriff"

Fair enough.

But when I asked you questions you ignored me so that can turn posters against Mods.

dubhthach · 01-03-2015 10:57pm

AngloIrishMan wrote: »

I read somewhere that travelling peoples separated from the settled Irish between 1000 and 2000 years ago. They are as racially distinct from the settled Irish as the Icelandic people are from the Norwegians according to this source.

1000-2000 years ago would predate Irish language surname acquisition though, by and large vast majority of travellers carry native irish surnames. If anything they retain features of Gaelic culture for longer than that of the "settled population"

AngloIrishMan · 01-03-2015 11:15pm

I own a book which contains a map that shows the percentage of Norman names in different areas of Ireland in 1660. 75% of names in the Wexford baronies of Forth and Bargy (South-East Wex) were Norman. I think that South Wexford was known as the Wexford Pale due to it being such an Anglo(Cambro)-Norman stronghold. The North was traditionally a Gaelic stronghold but was the planted by James VI and a large Protestant population exists nowadays. Other small groups were settled in Wexford such as a group of brewers from the now Baltic States, Palatine Germans and Flemish people. I think Wexford could possibly be the least Gaelic county, genealogically.
Also is it a myth that dark-skinned-haired-eyed Irish are descended from Spanish soldiers who were shipwrecked off the coast of Ireland during the Armada?

dubhthach · 01-03-2015 11:26pm

Well Wexford would probably have a good claim, however Irish was found spoken in Wexford even into early 19th century, there are accounts of Rebels at New Ross who couldn't speak English for example. Let alone the fact that members of North Cork Militia appeal to rebels to spare their lives in Irish.

North Wexford obviously remained part of Gaelic lordship until said plantation, however there's been significant "internal-migration" in Ireland over the last 300 years, so I wouldn't think 1660 map would be representative of today. Also it probably concentrates on land holders as oppose to actual peasants in the field.

As for Spanish armada Fanciful story with no basis in history, survivors were generally subject to massacre/execution. Even if they weren't there wouldn't have been enough of them to have such an affect on general population.

Ipso · 02-03-2015 12:18am

AngloIrishMan wrote: »

I own a book which contains a map that shows the percentage of Norman names in different areas of Ireland in 1660. 75% of names in the Wexford baronies of Forth and Bargy (South-East Wex) were Norman. I think that South Wexford was known as the Wexford Pale due to it being such an Anglo(Cambro)-Norman stronghold. The North was traditionally a Gaelic stronghold but was the planted by James VI and a large Protestant population exists nowadays. Other small groups were settled in Wexford such as a group of brewers from the now Baltic States, Palatine Germans and Flemish people. I think Wexford could possibly be the least Gaelic county, genealogically.
Also is it a myth that dark-skinned-haired-eyed Irish are descended from Spanish soldiers who were shipwrecked off the coast of Ireland during the Armada?

I think Irish people like the Armada myth as Spaniards are Catholics and they were fighting d'English and a Spanish inputs differentiates us from English.

pedroeibar1 · 02-03-2015 10:44am

dubhthach wrote: »

.......however there's been significant "internal-migration" in Ireland over the last 300 years...........

I’ve never queried it Dubhthach, and I’ve no proof to back it up, but it’s always been at the back of my mind that the Irish population was comparatively (e.g. to England/Cont. Europe) static. There was some disruption at the Cromwellian resettlement* and again at the Famine, but the main mobility catalyst of Industrial Revolution largely passed us by. Hence the odds are that a McNamara is from Clare, an O’Sullivan from Cork/Kerry and an O’Reilly from Cavan.

*In her transplanter's certificate, dated 19th December, 1653, Lady Castleconnell is described as "adged 70 years, middle statue, flaxen hair. Her substance 20 cows, 20 sheep, 10 mares and garrans, and two riding nags ; four sows, and six acres of winter corn, out of which she pays contribution," also, "27 servants and retainers."

dubhthach · 02-03-2015 1:17pm

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

I’ve never queried it Dubhthach, and I’ve no proof to back it up, but it’s always been at the back of my mind that the Irish population was comparatively (e.g. to England/Cont. Europe) static. There was some disruption at the Cromwellian resettlement* and again at the Famine, but the main mobility catalyst of Industrial Revolution largely passed us by. Hence the odds are that a McNamara is from Clare, an O’Sullivan from Cork/Kerry and an O’Reilly from Cavan.

*In her transplanter's certificate, dated 19th December, 1653, Lady Castleconnell is described as "adged 70 years, middle statue, flaxen hair. Her substance 20 cows, 20 sheep, 10 mares and garrans, and two riding nags ; four sows, and six acres of winter corn, out of which she pays contribution," also, "27 servants and retainers."

Sure, not on the scale of what we see in other countries that's for sure, and it's more something that's reflective of last 150 years (particulary 90 years since independence) where we've seen migration into Greater Dublin region.

But even with names such as McNamara which have only arisen once you find people bearing them in Belfast in 1901 census, it's long way from Clare

Irish Times surname page is quite useful as it plots data using Griffith survey's, in case of Reilly unsurprising there is huge concentration within the former Kingdom of Bréifine (they were after all Lords of East Bréifne after their little "civil war" with the O'Rourkes), still even by 1850's we are seeing a major spread of surname all over the country. Up until the destruction of O'Reilly lordship (250 years prior) it would have been considerably more compact I'd imagine

Of course there is a case that with certain surnames you have multiple independent occurrences, so for example O'Neill (4x), Duffy (3-4x), O'Connor (6x), O'Carroll (6x plus McCarroll), McMahon (2 x), McManus (2 x), Murphy (4-6x), Kelly (10-12x !!!)

What helps here is large scale Y-DNA sampling which can help spilt out origins of specific branches. So for example it's very easy to tell a Connacht McManus (branch of O'Conor family) from a Fermanagh McManus (branch of the Maguires) based on Y-DNA test, same goes for McMahon of Oirialla (Oriel eg. Monaghan) or Murphy of Leinster (Mac Murchadha/Ó Murchadha)

Reilly's unsurprising are showing up in genetic cluster with other Connachta/Uí Briúin surnames which ties in with genealogical sources.

AngloIrishMan · 02-03-2015 6:10pm

dubhthach wrote: »

Well Wexford would probably have a good claim, however Irish was found spoken in Wexford even into early 19th century, there are accounts of Rebels at New Ross who couldn't speak English for example. Let alone the fact that members of North Cork Militia appeal to rebels to spare their lives in Irish.

Yeah I know, but I don't think the fact that they spoke irish necessarily implies that they were more Gaelic from a genetic perspective. (More Irish than the Irish themselves).
Also, the info. presented on the map was derived from a poll tax return.

dubhthach · 02-03-2015 6:45pm

Well Arthur Young writing in 1770's had it that no traces of Irish were to be found in Forth and Bargy, which makes sense given the presence of Yola which derives from Middle English.
In general the "more irish than the Irish" implies heavy intermarriage with the Irish aristocracy, this can be seen in extreme form with the Burkes of Connacht who other than regarding themselves as "Gall" due to their male lineage were culturally entirely Gaelic, and nearly always married women of major Gaelic families (O'Malley, O'Flaherty, O'Conor, O'Kelly etc.)

The last native speakers of Irish in Wexford died in late 19th/early 20th century up by Bunclody in the north.

AngloIrishMan · 02-03-2015 7:51pm

dubhthach wrote: »

Well Arthur Young writing in 1770's had it that no traces of Irish were to be found in Forth and Bargy, which makes sense given the presence of Yola which derives from Middle English.
In general the "more irish than the Irish" implies heavy intermarriage with the Irish aristocracy, this can be seen in extreme form with the Burkes of Connacht who other than regarding themselves as "Gall" due to their male lineage were culturally entirely Gaelic, and nearly always married women of major Gaelic families (O'Malley, O'Flaherty, O'Conor, O'Kelly etc.)

The last native speakers of Irish in Wexford died in late 19th/early 20th century up by Bunclody in the north.

The Yoles were actually a very, very small group of people, so I doubt their language was spoken by a majority in those baronies. I don't think yola was directly derived from Middle English as it contained elements of french, Flemish and irish also. Some elements of the language still survive in modern speech in Wexford. For example, the words sprong(referring to a pitchfork) and the word quare(meaning very).

Jesus. · 02-03-2015 7:57pm

AngloIrishMan wrote: »

I don't think yola was directly derived from Middle English as it contained elements of french, Flemish and irish also.

Something similar in Fingal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fingallian

http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/column-yola-and-fingalian-%E2%80%93-the-forgotten-ancient-english-dialects-of-ireland-985649-Jul2013/

dubhthach · 03-03-2015 10:48am

Weird I thought I reply to this, seems I must have closed the browser tab without posting.

Yola is most certaintly a "dialect" based on Middle English. Just as Scots developed out of middle English independent to modern English. The fact that yola has loanwords from French (or Flemish or Irish) is immaterial, after all one of key features of Middle English is massive influx of French loanwords and changes that inflicted on the language. After all that's why it ain't impossible to read Chaucer but good looking reading Beowulf!

Of course in Scotland there has been the case that Scots is converging with modern English due to prestige associated with English post-union thence the development of "Scottish English" (Highlanders for example never spoke Scots they underwent language shift from Gaidhlig straight to "Scottish-English"). The fact that Yola and Fingalian (as Jesus. points out) remained localised languages reflects if anything the lack of prestige that English held in Ireland throughout the medieval period, where if anything the language shift was from French/English -> Irish.

Eugene Norman · 08-03-2015 9:59pm

I would think by looking at the percentage of norman names and English names the South East has most English or Norman blood. Dublin may have had but most of the internal migration since independence to Dublin is from the more Gaelic counties. Also there were large parts of dublin with irish population - the liberties Etc.

My surname is english. Not norman. English. Not sure when my patrilineal ancestor came over but it looks like more than 2 centuries ago.

dubhthach · 08-03-2015 10:23pm

Eugene Norman wrote: »

I would think by looking at the percentage of norman names and English names the South East has most English or Norman blood. Dublin may have had but most of the internal migration since independence to Dublin is from the more Gaelic counties. Also there were large parts of dublin with irish population - the liberties Etc.

My surname is english. Not norman. English. Not sure when my patrilineal ancestor came over but it looks like more than 2 centuries ago.

There was also people speaking Irish in the Dublin mountains right into mid 19th century, I recall an account of an englishman from early 19th century where he mentioned you could find people speaking Irish within 10miles of College green!

newmug · 08-03-2015 11:55pm

AngloIrishMan wrote: »

The Yoles were actually a very, very small group of people, so I doubt their language was spoken by a majority in those baronies. I don't think yola was directly derived from Middle English as it contained elements of french, Flemish and irish also. Some elements of the language still survive in modern speech in Wexford. For example, the words sprong(referring to a pitchfork) and the word quare(meaning very).

I think quare means unusual. If something was quare big, it would be unusually big. Then, of course, we have the more well-known use of the word, which was anglicised to "queer". Around here, queer is still very much used to describe something unusual, eg quare taste off something, quare weather for the time of year etc.

riffmongous · 10-03-2015 5:49pm

newmug wrote: »

I think quare means unusual. If something was quare big, it would be unusually big. Then, of course, we have the more well-known use of the word, which was anglicised to "queer". Around here, queer is still very much used to describe something unusual, eg quare taste off something, quare weather for the time of year etc.

Interesting.

Around the SE parts I always thought it was mostly used as 'very' alright, I heard things described as 'quare bad' so often that it wouldnt make sense for the person to be truly meaning 'unusual' (e.g Wexford hurling team :P).

But quare was also often used in a different sense for unusual too, like how you describe.

antgal23 · 10-03-2015 6:20pm

Quare for me means 'some'

"He is a quare / some laugh"
" I had quare craic last night "

Also, I remember watching a programme once that did DNA testing in the UK ànd Ireland and t said the West (of the island) were the most racially pure.

One view they gave was lack of worker/ people movement into the area and it's distance from the more popular East

Fatswaldo · 30-03-2015 7:33pm

riffmongous wrote: »

Interesting.

Around the SE parts I always thought it was mostly used as 'very' alright, I heard things described as 'quare bad' so often that it wouldnt make sense for the person to be truly meaning 'unusual' (e.g Wexford hurling team :P).

But quare was also often used in a different sense for unusual too, like how you describe.

Ill ignore the slur on our fine hurlers :rolleyes:. Quare means 'very' in my neck of the woods (west Wexford). As in " those spuds are quare nice". As you travel east, towards Rosslare and what was Yola, the dialect changes.

mariaalice · 01-04-2015 2:56pm

The fashion for changing personal and surname to Irish, from the Gaelic revival on wards, I have always wondered were the 'new' Irish names actual surnames the family's would have has in the past or were they a complete reinvention, a sort of fantasy connection to the past.

dubhthach · 02-04-2015 9:52am

mariaalice wrote: »

The fashion for changing personal and surname to Irish, from the Gaelic revival on wards, I have always wondered were the 'new' Irish names actual surnames the family's would have has in the past or were they a complete reinvention, a sort of fantasy connection to the past.

With regards to surnames well they tend to be original Irish surname that had been anglicised, obviously Norman names generally also had Irish language forms as well.

The issue in general I find with some of the revived Irish personal names is that people often don't know how to pronounce them correctly (Niall is prime example), or they use obselete spelling which isn't relevant in modern Irish (silent internal -dh-/-gh-) and which in modern forms are generally deleted. (eg. Ruaidhrí -> Ruairí, Cliodhna -> Clíona etc.)

newmug · 02-04-2015 10:47am

I think we should all do DNA tests to unravel the whole system of how we're related. Imagine if you could trace your lineage back to some of the bone fragments found in Newgrange!!!

Ipso · 02-04-2015 3:24pm

The frustrating thing is that National Geographic done a lot of tests in the West last year, but didn't release any meaningful results.
For a company that was a fore runner in DNA testing, they have gone downhill badly.

dubhthach · 02-04-2015 4:17pm

newmug wrote: »

I think we should all do DNA tests to unravel the whole system of how we're related. Imagine if you could trace your lineage back to some of the bone fragments found in Newgrange!!!

Well at basic level Ancestry will tell you "how Irish" you are

Obviously several hundred years of migration will have an impact.

dubhthach · 02-04-2015 4:20pm

Ipso wrote: »

The frustrating thing is that National Geographic done a lot of tests in the West last year, but didn't release any meaningful results.
For a company that was a fore runner in DNA testing, they have gone downhill badly.

Well technically it was FTDNA in partnership with National Geographic. What we need is a paper, my feeling though is they only ran the "National Genographic 2.0" test, it's not like they did full genomes or anything more existing.

The interesting thing from west of Ireland at moment (in my opinion) is the appearance of what appears to be specific clade within M222 y-Chromosome lineage that appears linked to historic Uí Briúin

newmug · 02-04-2015 9:49pm

People definitely have a "look" in different parts of the country. You can't mistake the west of Ireland look, a dead straight, wide mouth, and a very spherical looking head.

The most and least Gaelic counties?

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