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Atheism & Agnosticism are not the same thing!

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    #32
    AeoNGriM
    Registered Users Posts: 712 ✭✭✭AeoNGriM


    Pompous wrote: »
    Are you that desperate to get your post count up, really?

    If anyone has an intelligent retort I'd be happy to hear it.

    If I were you, I'd take the fact that all you are getting is troll replies as a sign that no-one gives a fcuk.

    Or should I say no-one gives a sh!t, as they aren't both the same.........


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    #33
    Seachmall
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    talkinyite wrote: »
    I'm not an atheist or theist

    If you are not a theist you are, by definition, an atheist.

    If you are not an atheist you are, by definition, a theist.


    If you are neither then you do not exist.


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    #34
    Logical Fallacy
    Registered Users Posts: 5,933 ✭✭✭Logical Fallacy


    Pompous wrote: »
    Are you that desperate to get your post count up, really?

    If anyone has an intelligent retort I'd be happy to hear it.

    Why ask for an intelligent retort to a flawed point?


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    #35
    Duffy the Vampire Slayer
    Registered Users Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭Duffy the Vampire Slayer


    Pompous wrote: »
    I'm sorry but you're just plain wrong. Go read up on their actual definitions.

    I just did. And I'm still correct.


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    #36
    Logical Fallacy
    Registered Users Posts: 5,933 ✭✭✭Logical Fallacy


    OldGoat wrote: »
    Don't get me started on the 'SciFi & Fantasy' forum. Now there's a pairing made in hell. Who in their right mind would mix swords in with rayguns? Pffft!

    Simon R Greene does...and it's epic.


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    #37
    thechanger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 61 ✭✭thechanger


    Agnostics are just atheists in denial.

    It's simply a YES/NO answer.

    Do you believe?
    • Yes – Theist
    • No - Atheist


    Contradictory to what most believe, atheists don't say – "There is no god". It's that they don't believe. If an agnostic is unsure, therefore she/he does not believe in god.


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    #38
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,740 ✭✭✭SeanW


    talkinyite wrote: »
    theist = yes
    agnostic = maybe
    atheist = no
    http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/141/1/d/Facepalm_Cat___Motivational_by_L4D2_fan.jpg
    Words fail me :(
    If you are not a theist you are, by definition, an atheist.

    If you are not an atheist you are, by definition, a theist.


    If you are neither then you do not exist.
    Also nonsense. Firstly, Agnosticism is not half way between theism and atheism. Agnosticism is not so much saying that "The answer is uknown" it's more like "Unknown is the answer." It is the assertion that we have no basis on which to make any kind of claims about the non-physical realm (including the negative assertions of Atheism).

    Atheists, on the other hand, are certain that everything we can see and percieve is everything that is. They are certain that we do not have souls, there is no afterlife and no god.

    Agnostics are not certain of this at all - not because we're half-way between some arbitrary religion and atheism, but because we've decided that the evidence is insufficient to accept any claim including the negative. It is said that the wisest statement in science is "I do not know."

    I don't know if there's a god or any kind of spiritual realm or not - I conside the evidence inadequate.


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    #39
    Seachmall
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    SeanW wrote: »
    Atheists, on the other hand, are certain that everything we can see and percieve is everything that is. They are certain that we do not have souls, there is no afterlife and no god.

    Nonsense, atheists are people who do not believe a God exists.

    Everything else you're just ascribing to them.
    I don't know if there's a god or any kind of spiritual realm or not - I conside the evidence inadequate.
    So you're an atheist?


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    #40
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,740 ✭✭✭SeanW


    thechanger wrote: »
    Agnostics are just atheists in denial.

    It's simply a YES/NO answer.

    Do you believe?
    • Yes – Theist
    • No - Atheist

    Contradictory to what most believe, atheists don't say – "There is no god". It's that they don't believe. If an agnostic is unsure, therefore she/he does not believe in god.
    FALSE!

    I am not an Atheist. My beliefs are guided by the knowledge that I accept. And I accept that I have no reason to believe any claim, including the negative. Ergo, my answer to "Do you believe?" is "I don't know" not Yes or No. Partly because I don't think there's enough evidence, partly because I don't know which set of fairytales I would have to believe to answer yes (there are a bazillion religions and sub-religions in the world, each claiming they're exclusively correct). Ergo, unknown is the answer that I accept, both in knowledge and belief.
    Oh and there are plenty of Atheists who seem to have the view that there is nothing outside the physical realm. Atheism = belief in the negative.


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    #41
    Seachmall
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    SeanW wrote: »
    Ergo, my answer to "Do you believe?" is "I don't know"

    Is that
    • I don't know if God exists.
    Or
    • I don't know what I believe.


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    #42
    starbelgrade
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,739 ✭✭✭✭starbelgrade


    OldGoat wrote: »
    Who in their right mind would mix swords in with rayguns? Pffft!

    The makers of the original Flash Gordon thought it was a good idea!


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    #43
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,740 ✭✭✭SeanW


    Seachmall wrote: »
    Is that
    • I don't know if God exists.
    Or
    • I don't know what I believe.
    Did you not read my posts? My religious stance can be summarised by the phrase "Unknown is the answer"

    And yes, like the OP I'm also irked that Atheism and Agnosticism are lumped together in a single forum. But whever myself or another agnostic has tried to have a separate forum, our request threads usually end up getting hijacked by fundamaterialists.


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    #44
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    What ever next? Country AND Western!!! One is a reference to a rural setting and the other is directional and yet both are used to describe a type of music popular in Monaghan, Longford and with folk with special needs.


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    #45
    Seachmall
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    SeanW wrote: »
    Did you not read my posts? My religious stance can be summarised by the phrase "Unknown is the answer"

    And yes, like the OP I'm also irked that Atheism and Agnosticism are lumped together in a single forum. But whever myself or another agnostic has tried to have a separate forum, our request threads usually end up getting hijacked by fundamaterialists.

    But to the question "Do you believe God exists?" how would you answer?

    From your response I'm going to presume it's "I don't know if God exists" (correct me if I'm wrong).

    That's an invalid answer, you weren't asked what you know or don't know.

    So, Do you believe God exists?


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    #46
    talkinyite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 349 ✭✭talkinyite


    SeanW wrote: »
    Ergo, my answer to "Do you believe?" is "I don't know" not Yes or No.

    That's pretty much the same as saying maybe.


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    #47
    44leto
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,137 ✭✭✭44leto


    Originally Posted by OldGoat View Post
    Who in their right mind would mix swords in with rayguns? Pffft!

    A good name for a new literary genre "rayguns and swords" fantasy and sci/fi do get hooped together, because us nerds read both, but I have grown out of fantasy, but I am still an avid Scifi head, its just that genre seems dead at the moment. Not even decent new writers are on the scene.

    I use this thread as an opportunity to state that,, the son of a bitch executive who canceled "Caprica" is now my blood enemy, he will be got, in this life or the next.


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    #48
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    SeanW wrote: »
    Atheists, on the other hand, are certain that everything we can see and percieve is everything that is. They are certain that we do not have souls, there is no afterlife and no god.

    Nonsense, atheists simply have no belief in a god, that's all. They can still believe in an afterlife, a soul, ghosts, or fairies if they so wish.


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    #49
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,090 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Atheism & Agnosticism are not the same thing!
    It's true! I didn't believe it at first but now I'm not sure.


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    #50
    CrazyRabbit
    Registered Users Posts: 8,659 ✭✭✭CrazyRabbit


    I used to believe in God, but then I took some science to the knee.


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    #51
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    SeanW wrote: »
    FALSE!

    I am not an Atheist. My beliefs are guided by the knowledge that I accept. And I accept that I have no reason to believe any claim, including the negative. Ergo, my answer to "Do you believe?" is "I don't know" not Yes or No. Partly because I don't think there's enough evidence, partly because I don't know which set of fairytales I would have to believe to answer yes (there are a bazillion religions and sub-religions in the world, each claiming they're exclusively correct). Ergo, unknown is the answer that I accept, both in knowledge and belief.
    Oh and there are plenty of Atheists who seem to have the view that there is nothing outside the physical realm. Atheism = belief in the negative.

    If you believe, then you are a theist. If you are anything else, including not knowing what you are, then you are an atheist. As you still don't have any belief in a god.


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    #52
    talkinyite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 349 ✭✭talkinyite


    MagicMarker wrote: »
    If you believe, then you are a theist. If you are anything else, including not knowing what you are, then you are an atheist. As you still don't have any belief in a god.

    But he doesn't disbelief either so he's not an atheist. They're not the same thing which is why the words exist.


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    #53
    Ellis Dee
    Registered Users Posts: 2,512 ✭✭✭Ellis Dee


    I fear the differences are a bit too subtle for the average schmuck to grasp.

    http://lh3.ggpht.com/-q2d4A4N5arw/TmEoB9jCjOI/AAAAAAAAC5k/daRnstnWPJE/Agnostic%252520v%252520Gnostic%252520v%252520Atheist%252520v%252520Theist.png

    Heard the one about the dyslexic insomniac agnostic?:confused:

    He lies awake nights wondering if there is a dog.:)


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    #54
    Seachmall
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    talkinyite wrote: »
    But he doesn't disbelief either so he's not an atheist. They're not the same thing which is why the words exist.

    The word atheist specifically exists to describe someone who is not a theist.

    That's what the prefix "a" means.

    So if you are not a theist you are, by definition, an atheist.

    The only thing that says about you is that you are not a theist. Everything else is interpretation.


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    #55
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    SeanW wrote: »
    Atheists, on the other hand, are certain that everything we can see and percieve is everything that is. They are certain that we do not have souls, there is no afterlife and no god.
    [Citation Needed]

    If that was the case then there would be very few atheists.

    It's a binary position.

    Consider the question, "Are you a stamp collector?"

    The answer is either "yes" or "no". There is no "I don't know" option. You either collect stamps or you don't. It's exactly the same for the question, "Do you believe in at least one God?".

    You do know whether you believe in a God or not. Your unsurity is in relation to the general question. But you cannot fall into the 50/50 position - it is not possible to simultaneously believe and not believe in a God. You either do or you don't.

    Theism is, "I believe in God"
    Atheism is the opposite of this; "I do not believe in God".

    Note that "I do not believe in God" is not the same as "I believe there is no God", and "I believe there is no God" is not the opposite of, "I believe in God".

    The key word is "believe", not "God". If you do not believe, then you are atheist. If you would consider yourself "undecided", then you are by default atheist because you cannot claim that you believe.


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    #56
    Sergeant
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,362 ✭✭✭Sergeant


    Ellis Dee wrote: »
    I fear the differences are a bit too subtle for the average schmuck to grasp.

    Maybe the average schmuck just doesn't care?


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    #57
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,740 ✭✭✭SeanW


    MagicMarker wrote: »
    Nonsense, atheists simply have no belief in a god, that's all. They can still believe in an afterlife, a soul, ghosts, or fairies if they so wish.
    Only if the term atheist is defined in a ridiculously broad fashion. By any sensible definition, Atheism should be regarded as a belief in the negative.


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    #58
    Seachmall
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    SeanW wrote: »
    Only if the term atheist is defined in a ridiculously broad fashion. By any sensible definition, Atheism should be regarded as a belief in the negative.

    In an intelligent and literal manner it should be understood to describe someone who is not a theist.


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    #59
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,740 ✭✭✭SeanW


    seamus wrote: »
    The key word is "believe", not "God". If you do not believe, then you are atheist. If you would consider yourself "undecided", then you are by default atheist because you cannot claim that you believe.
    Again, wrong. I am not undecided. I have come to the conclusion that we cannot know. That is explicitly a decision, based on my view of the evidence.

    It is you who is confusing two different stances.

    "The answer is unknown"

    is not the same as:

    "Unknown is the answer."

    The former is someone who hasn't reached a conclusion. The latter describes an agnostic.


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    #60
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    SeanW wrote: »
    By any sensible definition, Atheism should be regarded as a belief in the negative.
    But since theism is the exact opposite of atheism, then logically theism is then a belief in the positive, i.e. "I believe there is definitely a God".

    That leaves a group of people - "I believe there is a God, but I'm not 100% sure". What do we call them? Agnostics? That seems absurd because you're using the same name to describe people who believe in God and people who don't believe in God, they just aren't certain about it.

    How about we divide agnostics into two groups, those who do believe and those who don't? Oh...wait...look, we already have names for those two groups...


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    #61
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    SeanW wrote: »
    "Unknown is the answer."

    The former is someone who hasn't reached a conclusion. The latter describes an agnostic.
    So, "Do you believe in God", and your answer is "Unknown".

    What you're confusing is knowledge in the specific sense and knowledge in the general sense. The question is not, "Is there a God", the question is in relation to your belief - "Do you believe?" You cannot say that the answer is inherently unknowable because you already know what you believe.


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