Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VII: The Fan-base Awakens

molloyjh · 25-01-2016 6:44pm

Clegg wrote: »

So who do Leinster have for the Dragons game?

Dooley
Tracey
Bent?
Molony
Denton
Ryan
?(Hopefully VdF back)
Murphy
McGrath
(Hopefully Madigan but probably Marsh)
Te'o
Ringrose
Kirchner
?
?

Denton is out injured for a few weeks. Apparently they only had 15-20 guys training yesterday.

stephen_n · 25-01-2016 6:45pm

Is Leavy injured?

awec · 25-01-2016 6:45pm

Step forward Fannarooney.

Neil3030 · 25-01-2016 6:48pm

Sam Warburton pretty much plays rugby full-time for Wales; pretty much misses every club game through injury. I'd like to see Sexton moved to a similar protocol tbh. Certainly between now and the end of the season there is no reason for him to be risked in a competitive fixture. Give Jackson the 6 Nations and Madigan the task of steering us home in the Pro 12.

You get one brain and neurons don't grow back.

vienne86 · 25-01-2016 7:52pm

Gutted about Moore leaving. I'd love to know what actually happened.

And losing Isa just now is a bummer too.

With all the injuries, anyone travelling to the Dragons game should bring their boots.

The Rape of Lucretia · 25-01-2016 8:05pm

awec wrote: »

Step forward Fannarooney.

Careful on old liberalisms with nameplay! Some mods here have issues with what is a style, think you are trying to suggest that you are chummy with the players, and will call it txt speak to find a breach of the charter for you.

Anyway, yes, The Fanje should be back in the mix I think.

.ak · 25-01-2016 11:30pm

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Careful on old liberalisms with nameplay! Some mods here have issues with what is a style, think you are trying to suggest that you are chummy with the players, and will call it txt speak to find a breach of the charter for you.

Anyway, yes, The Fanje should be back in the mix I think.

No mods have issue with style, just not everyone has style, that's the problem.

molloyjh · 25-01-2016 11:35pm

.ak wrote: »

No mods have issue with style, just not everyone has style, that's the problem.

CatFromHue · 26-01-2016 2:31am

The prospect of paying in the region of £250,000 (€328,000) compensation to Wasps in light of Marty Moore having signed a heads of agreement with the Premiership club left Leinster with little option but to reluctantly give up on their attempts to keep the 24-year-old tight-head.
After several weeks of negotiations with Leinster, who followed up a one-year offer with a reduced two-year contract, Moore decided to accept the three-year deal on the table from Wasps
--
Aside from being financially more lucrative, one of the main attractions of the move for Moore, who has won over 50 caps for Leinster and ten for Ireland, was the prospect of being coached by the Wasps director of rugby Dai Young.

Hmmm

stephen_n · 26-01-2016 7:47am

.ak wrote: »

No mods have issue with style, just not everyone has style, that's the problem.

But you had style before it was in style of course.

CMOTDibbler · 26-01-2016 10:17am

CatFromHue wrote: »

The prospect of paying in the region of £250,000 (€328,000) compensation to Wasps in light of Marty Moore having signed a heads of agreement with the Premiership club left Leinster with little option but to reluctantly give up on their attempts to keep the 24-year-old tight-head.
After several weeks of negotiations with Leinster, who followed up a one-year offer with a reduced two-year contract, Moore decided to accept the three-year deal on the table from Wasps
--
Aside from being financially more lucrative, one of the main attractions of the move for Moore, who has won over 50 caps for Leinster and ten for Ireland, was the prospect of being coached by the Wasps director of rugby Dai Young.

Hmmm

It seems ludicrous that Leinster would offer a 24 year old prop a one year contract. You'd have to wonder what the state of the finances are if they're trying to cut corners like that.

errlloyd · 26-01-2016 10:24am

I think this is the full list of players unavailable to Leinster this weekend.

1 Heaslip
2 O'Brien
3 Ruddock
4 Van Der Flier
5 Conan Injured
6 McCarthy
7 Toner
8 Denton Injured
9 Triggs
10 Kearney Injured
11 Thornbury Injured
12 Cian Healy Injured
13 Mike Ross Injured
14 Marty Moore Injured
15 Royce Burke Flynn Injured
16 Tadgh Furlong
17 Ed Byrne Injured
18 Jack McGrath
19 Cronin
20 Strauss

21 Reddan
22 Sexton Injured
23 Madigan
24 Byrne Injured
25 Isa Injured
26 Dkearney
27 Rkearney
28 O'Shea Injured
29 Fitzgerald

Winters · 26-01-2016 10:33am

It's my understanding that Marty Moore has been on consecutive one year deals until now at his own request. Leinster offered him a 2 year deal for next season and Wasps offered him a 3 year deal. Given his recent injury profile and the Ross and Furlong deals Leinster/IRFU were probably being prudent and also perhaps they not expecting him to leave or be offered a 3 year deal.

Either way, he is gone now.

Irish Rugby has to balance the books, Wasps dont.

.ak · 26-01-2016 10:35am

stephen_n wrote: »

But you had style before it was in style of course.

Now you're catching on!

Sangre · 26-01-2016 10:45am

Winters wrote: »

It's my understanding that Marty Moore has been on consecutive one year deals until now at his own request. Leinster offered him a 2 year deal for next season and Wasps offered him a 3 year deal. Given his recent injury profile and the Ross and Furlong deals Leinster/IRFU were probably being prudent and also perhaps they not expecting him to leave or be offered a 3 year deal.

Either way, he is gone now.

Irish Rugby has to balance the books, Wasps dont.

He requested a one year contract to improve his negotiation position for the next round of discussions. I very much doubt it was his long-term intention to stay on rolling one year contracts.

It is odd that the IRFU opened with one year, then moved on to a 'reduced' two year. I don't know exactly what a 'reduced' contract is but I assume its less than 24 months. That being the case, its not hard to see why Moore took the 3 year deal with Wasps.

Also, even if the IRFU ultimately decided to let Moore go, it should never have gotten to the stage where this was being considered after heads of agreement were signed. Usually I give the IRFU the benefit of the doubt in these things but this ones seems like a total blunder.

irishbucsfan · 26-01-2016 10:59am

Sangre wrote: »

Also, even if the IRFU ultimately decided to let Moore go, it should never have gotten to the stage where this was being considered after heads of agreement were signed. Usually I give the IRFU the benefit of the doubt in these things but this ones seems like a total blunder.

To make things worse, Niall Woods is Marty Moore's agent. He has worked closely with the IRFU in the past. He was head of IRUPA for a long time. He is well known to the people on our side of the table and has a long history of working closely with the iRFU. IE, it's not like it was Fintan Drury.

People love to blame everyone but the IRFU, and they want to blame English clubs and money etc etc. But if it was a fact that the IRFU could not afford to keep Marty Moore then why would he have wanted out of the contract? If it was the case that the IRFU simply can't compete then why was his head turned at the last minute? Why wasn't that appeal made to him before he signed? It's just too easy to blame the foreigners, the whole thing looks very bad for either Leinster or the IRFU, only they'll know where it all broke down.

CMOTDibbler · 26-01-2016 11:02am

Sangre wrote: »

It is odd that the IRFU opened with one year, then moved on to a 'reduced' two year. I don't know exactly what a 'reduced' contract is but I assume its less than 24 months. That being the case, its not hard to see why Moore took the 3 year deal with Wasps.

I took 'reduced' to mean that the amount on offer per year was reduced over two years. So (say) 150k for one year but 275k for two.

In all this discussion, it's Leinster who are being named as the negotiators. As far as I know, the IRFU only get involved if there's a central contract or the province need a hand out to pay an increased amount to match an overseas offer.

From what I'm reading, the IRFU were late to the table because Leinster were late calling for help. Too late as it turns out.

errlloyd · 26-01-2016 11:03am

Winters wrote: »

Irish Rugby has to balance the books, Wasps dont.

I know IBF isn't a fan of us analysing rugby clubs, particularly premiership clubs, like businesses but Wasps are currently making a massive gamble on the success of Coventry, and they have to start winning games quick if they want it to pay.

Wasps moved from Adam's park in Wycombe (which they didn't own) to the Ricoh Arena in Coventry around this time last year. The Ricoh is a 30k seater stadium with attached hotel and conference facilities that they bought in part with a Loan with Coventry city, and in part with a bank loan. This greatly increased their capacity and the percentage of the earnings they would take from the door. They presumably also now rent to Coventry City football club.

They were hoping this would allow them to diversify the business away from Rugby, I think I posted a business plan here which showed that Rugby was less than 10% of their potential income. They were relying on conferences, the hotel and the odd concert to push up the potential profits.

The risk is that they might just never fill it. I presume the business model relies on filling it for the rugby. So last year they issued a bunch of bonds to raise 7mn pounds in capital to be repaid in about 7 years I think. Using that cash they actually paid off their loan to Conventry city council because it would give them greater flexibility and I presume the rest is being invested in buying the kind of players that might get the turnstyles ticking over.

Because of this they actually have to buy players. Bath and Saracens are buying players to get into debt. Their stadiums can't get any bigger, so they have no way to actually capitalise on increased performance. They're not gambling, they're just throwing money away for fun.

former total · 26-01-2016 11:07am

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I took 'reduced' to mean that the amount on offer per year was reduced over two years. So (say) 150k for one year but 275k for two.

In all this discussion, it's Leinster who are being named as the negotiators. As far as I know, the IRFU only get involved if there's a central contract or the province need a hand out to pay an increased amount to match an overseas offer.

From what I'm reading, the IRFU were late to the table because Leinster were late calling for help. Too late as it turns out.

Nah, that's not really plausible. That Nucifora and Schmidt just said to Leinster, "here lads, let us know how you get on with Marty Moore there, will ya?" - no, the IRFU would have been fully informed every step of the way. If they weren't, then it's absolute criminal negligence by them.

irishbucsfan · 26-01-2016 11:13am

errlloyd wrote: »

Their stadiums can't get any bigger, so they have no way to actually capitalise on increased performance.

The size of their stadium can stay the same so long as their broadcasting deals keep growing and growing.

Wasps have had strong performance since the move to be fair to them. It's gone better than I'd ever thought it would.

aimee1 · 26-01-2016 11:16am

errlloyd wrote: »

I know IBF isn't a fan of us analysing rugby clubs, particularly premiership clubs, like businesses but Wasps are currently making a massive gamble on the success of Coventry, and they have to start winning games quick if they want it to pay.

Wasps moved from Adam's park in Wycombe (which they didn't own) to the Ricoh Arena in Coventry around this time last year. The Ricoh is a 30k seater stadium with attached hotel and conference facilities that they bought in part with a Loan with Coventry city, and in part with a bank loan. This greatly increased their capacity and the percentage of the earnings they would take from the door. They presumably also now rent to Coventry City football club.

They were hoping this would allow them to diversify the business away from Rugby, I think I posted a business plan here which showed that Rugby was less than 10% of their potential income. They were relying on conferences, the hotel and the odd concert to push up the potential profits.

The risk is that they might just never fill it. I presume the business model relies on filling it for the rugby. So last year they issued a bunch of bonds to raise 7mn pounds in capital to be repaid in about 7 years I think. Using that cash they actually paid off their loan to Conventry city council because it would give them greater flexibility and I presume the rest is being invested in buying the kind of players that might get the turnstyles ticking over.

Because of this they actually have to buy players. Bath and Saracens are buying players to get into debt. Their stadiums can't get any bigger, so they have no way to actually capitalise on increased performance. They're not gambling, they're just throwing money away for fun.

Wasps bond raised 35 mil sterling i think, not 7.

Winters · 26-01-2016 11:18am

Wasps have a debt of £35m which they can now secure against the arena and it's earnings. Saracens and Bath do not that that luxury.

Off topic, sorry.

errlloyd · 26-01-2016 11:35am

aimee1 wrote: »

Wasps bond raised 35 mil sterling i think, not 7.

Right you are, 35mn, 6.5%, 7 years.

ArmchairQB · 26-01-2016 4:29pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

To make things worse, Niall Woods is Marty Moore's agent. He has worked closely with the IRFU in the past. He was head of IRUPA for a long time. He is well known to the people on our side of the table and has a long history of working closely with the iRFU. IE, it's not like it was Fintan Drury.

People love to blame everyone but the IRFU, and they want to blame English clubs and money etc etc. But if it was a fact that the IRFU could not afford to keep Marty Moore then why would he have wanted out of the contract? If it was the case that the IRFU simply can't compete then why was his head turned at the last minute? Why wasn't that appeal made to him before he signed? It's just too easy to blame the foreigners, the whole thing looks very bad for either Leinster or the IRFU, only they'll know where it all broke down.

Rumours of his head being turned are wide of the mark. Schmidt basically told him if he moved he wouldn't play for Ireland again. With that they requested an offer from Leinster (who have to get approval from IRFU on the deal) No improvement on previous deal so off he went. Leinster/IRFu did not / would not match Wasps contract offer when they had a chance before he signed Heads of agreement so fair play to Moore who is a professional sports man who has a short career as a top sports professional. The way Leinster/IRFU are conducting their business needs a big review. If Kirchner can get re-signed after dismall performances for same money as being offered to Marty Moore then something is wrong. Gary Ringrose should get a 5 year deal now and should be extended after 3 years if he continues the way he is waiting a few months before contract expires is not the way to do things in a professional orginisation.

Synode · 26-01-2016 4:59pm

ArmchairQB wrote: »

Schmidt basically told him if he moved he wouldn't play for Ireland again.

Sorry but where are you getting this from?

ArmchairQB · 26-01-2016 5:08pm

Synode wrote: »

Sorry but where are you getting this from?

Could tell you but then I would have to .............

26-01-2016 5:10pm

Synode wrote: »

Sorry but where are you getting this from?

ArmchairQB wrote: »

Could tell you but then I would have to .............

scott1974 · 26-01-2016 5:13pm

Synode wrote: »

Sorry but where are you getting this from?

I think it's referring to Nucifora :

Nucifora has previously admitted “straight away the players that go leave themselves at a disadvantage” over the thorny issue of Ireland stars opting to move abroad.

Synode · 26-01-2016 5:15pm

scott1974 wrote: »

I think it's referring to Nucifora :

Nucifora has previously admitted “straight away the players that go leave themselves at a disadvantage” over the thorny issue of Ireland stars opting to move abroad.

That's a bit different than

ArmchairQB wrote: »

Schmidt basically told him if he moved he wouldn't play for Ireland again.

If someone is the best in their position, they'll play for Ireland no matter where they play their club rugby. If it's a 50/50 call I can see the Irish based player being given preference

scott1974 · 26-01-2016 5:23pm

Synode wrote: »

That's a bit different than

If someone is the best in their position, they'll play for Ireland no matter where they play their club rugby. If it's a 50/50 call I can see the Irish based player being given preference

Well, Furlong's your man so....

Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VII: The Fan-base Awakens

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