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19-04-2012, 00:48   #946
psychward
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I'll try this one more time... people say we're paying the money back to German and French banks. But no one has proven that to be actually true.
Ive seen plenty of examples of proof .
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19-04-2012, 01:48   #947
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Ive seen plenty of examples of proof .
The economist Karl Whelan was one of the people who claimed this. Scofflaw called him on it and he had no proof for it. The only figures I've seen were of all foreign debt in this country. Included in that was the IFSC which has a load of German banks, who owe the money to their parent companies in Germany... we don't owe it. But it shows as foreign debt.

So either you have proof for the claim or you don't.

See here.

Last edited by meglome; 19-04-2012 at 04:13.
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28-05-2012, 20:34   #948
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Hi all Boardies

Can we all please make a stance here and get our non boardies to do the same. Enough is Enough We should not pay this new household Tax. Its the same as the Poll tax in the UK. I am an normal Joe Soap with 2 kids. I cant pay any more Taxes. I can afford it as it is. I am lucky to have my Job.

We need to mount a serious objection here and nationwide.

thanks
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Brian I think you are right I have not paid and will not pay, Nor will I allow a water meter to be installed on my property, I have listened to politicians rabbit on about In the North / In the UK they pay x amount. Okay fair enough, But how much do they pay for a car ,mmmm no VRT, how much do they pay for a doctors visit mmmmm, How much do they pay for a prescription to be filled ,mmmmmmm. IVF for the couples who need it and I'm not being smart on that one, It is at least 6000 euro here to give people the joy of having kids, Free I think in the UK ,I could go on and on. I paid enough vat and tax when I built my house plus other monies for and I quote (the up keep of local roads and amenities ) which I was under the impression my road tax and taxes on my wages were paying for at the time. But we are always the same lie down and take it. If I remember correctly the last time Labour were in charge of our country did they not try to but a tax on childrens shoes. I stand to be corrected on that. My only regret is that I did not borrow 15 million to build 150 houses and a mansion for myself as if I had have done that it would be okay now Nama would have sorted for me and I'd still have my S class merc for race days , My Mansion and my wife would have her 6 litre jeep for the school runs,

Fair play to you for your post
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29-05-2012, 00:32   #949
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I paid enough vat and tax when I built my house plus other monies for and I quote (the up keep of local roads and amenities ) which I was under the impression my road tax and taxes on my wages were paying for at the time.
Is it beyond the realms of possibility that the cost of services provided is greater than tax revenue collected?
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29-05-2012, 09:13   #950
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Is it beyond the realms of possibility that the cost of services provided is greater than tax revenue collected?
Based on logic, common sense and all the available evidence I'd have to say that there is a substantial inconsistency between revenue collected and the standard of services provided.

- An Irish person will now be born in an understaffed, dangerous, substandard Hospital, educated in a prefab, pay massive amounts of tax throughout their lifetime, including the newly invented 'novelty' taxes, before eventually dying in a corridor in another understaffed, dangerous, substandard Hospital.
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29-05-2012, 09:41   #951
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Based on logic, common sense and all the available evidence I'd have to say that there is a substantial inconsistency between revenue collected and the standard of services provided.

- An Irish person will now be born in an understaffed, dangerous, substandard Hospital, educated in a prefab, pay massive amounts of tax throughout their lifetime, including the newly invented 'novelty' taxes, before eventually dying in a corridor in another understaffed, dangerous, substandard Hospital.
Well, at least that's not melodramatic and over-the-top, Mary-Lou.
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29-05-2012, 09:46   #952
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Based on logic, common sense and all the available evidence I'd have to say that there is a substantial inconsistency between revenue collected and the standard of services provided.
I presume that by “logic, common sense and all the available evidence” you mean “opinion and anecdotes”? I know it’s cool to espouse the belief that everything about Ireland is ****e, but the reality is a bit more complex.
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An Irish person will now be born in an understaffed, dangerous, substandard Hospital...
Nonsense. By any objective measure, the Irish healthcare system compares quite favourably with others in the Western World.
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...educated in a prefab...
That’s your one reasonable point in that post.
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...pay massive amounts of tax...
There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Irish people pay large amounts of tax. None. It’s just something that gets repeated so often that it’s just accepted as being fact. If anything, the amount of tax paid by Irish residents is actually below average – well below the Eurozone average in fact.
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29-05-2012, 10:20   #953
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Originally Posted by djpbarry View Post
There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Irish people pay large amounts of tax. None. It’s just something that gets repeated so often that it’s just accepted as being fact. If anything, the amount of tax paid by Irish residents is actually below average – well below the Eurozone average in fact.
I think it's the arbitrary nature of the taxation which has been an issue. This most recent property tax has been levied based on ownership for usage of services. The person using the services is not the one to pay. There are exemptions for properties owned by businesses and council properties simply because the government wants money off individuals but not councils or Nama.

VRT has always been levied on a notional price, artificially keeping car prices high.

Road tax has been messed and altered with so often that nobody knows whether a car will represent cheap or expensive motoring in the medium term.

Credit and debit card duty is nonsensical as we move no toward a cash free society.

On the other hand there are very generous tax concessions such as season tickets, shares, married couples allowances which again are quite random.

Why not just stick the lot on income tax, VAT and cut everything else out? It would provide the fairest, simplest to implement and most transparent taxation.
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29-05-2012, 11:20   #954
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Originally Posted by Terrontress View Post
The person using the services is not the one to pay.
But isn’t that what Ireland wants? “Free” education, “free” healthcare, etc. ?
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Why not just stick the lot on income tax, VAT and cut everything else out? It would provide the fairest, simplest to implement and most transparent taxation.
I certainly would not argue against a simplification of the tax system, but I do think that part of that involves allowing local authorities to raise their own funding to some extent.
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29-05-2012, 13:55   #955
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Originally Posted by Terrontress View Post
The person using the services is not the one to pay.
But isn’t that what Ireland wants? “Free” education, “free” healthcare, etc. ?
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Originally Posted by Terrontress View Post
Why not just stick the lot on income tax, VAT and cut everything else out? It would provide the fairest, simplest to implement and most transparent taxation.
I certainly would not argue against a simplification of the tax system, but I do think that part of that involves allowing local authorities to raise their own funding to some extent.
Free at the point of usage, yes, but of course it has to be paid for somewhere. Paid for with universal taxation in my, admittedly not thought out, model.

I'd have a single rate of income tax, paid on all earnings over the tax-free threshold. VAT at a lower rate than today, maybe 20%, to stimulate consumption. Finally a local tax based on property value at a rate set by the local authority and those local authorities could tempt people to move to their area based on low tax or high services.

Retain duty on alcohol, fuel, tobacco duties. Drop road tax to €100 for all cars to run the admin of licensing, drop road tolls, drop VRT, reduce house stamp duty to cover the costs but not to generate income. Drop tax efficient shares, drop season ticket tax relief, drop married couple relief, drop artist exemption entirely. Drop all tax benefits and loopholes. Local taxation to be paid on all houses which are occupied, regardless of who owns them.

A first-class health and education system, both free at the point of usage. Roads maintained by NRA, centrally funded, or by the council, from local tax. Bin collection, fire brigade callout, libraries all paid for by the local taxation.

And if we need more money to do this then up the income tax. If taxes are higher across the board then average net income reduces and then prices will drop to meet that.

The end.
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29-05-2012, 14:07   #956
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"And if we need more money to do this then up the income tax. If taxes are higher across the board then average net income reduces and then prices will drop to meet that"

- Aside from mistakenly thinking Paddy doesn't mind being taxed, there's a gaping hole in the economy that you would be left to fend for with your solution.
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29-05-2012, 15:22   #957
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Free at the point of usage, yes, but of course it has to be paid for somewhere.
Sure, but this is the great big problem in Ireland at the moment - people are demanding world class services, but don't want to pay for them. For example, these threads often bring up comparisons between Ireland and the UK, with all the "free" services available in the UK being listed (many of which are not actually "free", such as prescriptions and dental treatment, for example). But of course it's always overlooked that taxes in the UK are considerably higher than in Ireland, particularly for those on middle to lower incomes.
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Drop road tax to €100 for all cars to run the admin of licensing, drop road tolls, drop VRT...
I wouldn't necessarily drop them all - I'd be more inclined to consolidate them all into a single tax on petrol. That way, what you pay is proportional to your road usage - can't get fairer than that*. And if you want to scrap season ticket tax relief, I'd offset that by increasing subsidies for public transport (which are pretty low in Ireland).

* Cue cries of "but that's unfair to those in rural areas who are more car dependent".
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