India Connection

nikonuser · 02-09-2015 3:39pm #1

I have been tracing my Maternal family for a couple of years and have uncovered many facts and stories in relation to their lives. I have hit a brick wall in furthering a connection to India. Any advice or direction anyone can offer to me would be greatly appreciated. Fortunately the name, ‘Meroe’ (and it variations) is not too common.

According to family lore my Great Great Grandfather John Meroe was born approximately 1819, where unknown (but possibly India), who travelled to Dublin around 1850 as 'batman' or servant for a British Officer who was stationed in India and traveled back to Ireland at that time to reside in Fitzwilliam Square. I don't know whether John was in the Army or employed as a servant. Also The British Officer has yet to be uncovered.

My Great Great Grandmother, Mary Anne Meroe (nee Caulfield) was born approximately 1827, where unknown. She married John Meroe around 1850 and I have placed her in Calcutta in 1952 to 1854 giving birth to a son (Thomas) there. The date of John’s and Mary Anne’s return to Dublin remains a mystery, though she gave birth to a daughter, Elizabeth, in 1861, where unknown, but I have placed them in Dublin in 1864 having another son, Patrick.

I do not know if both John & Mary Anne travelled to Calcutta from Dublin originally or maybe only one of them did. My family genetics suggest an Indian gene, several very dark skinned, black hair & eyes relatives.

Any suggestions in furthering this Indian connection would be appreciated. J

pinkypinky · 02-09-2015 4:25pm

FIBIS may be able to give some pointers. http://www.fibis.org/

I don't think we have a boardsie who knows about Indian genealogy but if there is, please speak up.

nikonuser · 02-09-2015 4:32pm

Thanks for the quick response. the 'John Meroe' may not have been Indian. Possibly the Indian connection may have been the GG Grandmother but with a name like Mary Anne Caulfield I think the link would be him.
And to further the story, why would a 20something year old Dublin girl have travelled to India. Maybe with her family? If she was Irish and related to a British Officer would she have been allowed associate with a local servant/enlisted man/batman?

Jellybaby1 · 02-09-2015 8:44pm

I think it was Shanew who also quoted http://indiafamily.bl.uk/UI/ for me a while back. It might help.

pedroeibar1 · 03-09-2015 12:09am

Pinky’s reference to FIBIS is a good start for overview of what to research.

I’ve researched only one guy- served in the Indian Medical Service as a doctor. For the era you mention, Moroe probably served in the army of one of the Presidencies, i.e. part of the East India Company, and not the “British Army”. In India most officers would have had a batman and other servants, but mainly they would have been natives. Were he a very senior officer he might have had a non-native batman and, if en route home, recruited a "white" who wanted to return to Ireland with him. Check Dublin street directories (Shanew’s site) for that period to see if you can get an army name in Fitzwilliam Sq. as it could lead to clues...

Roughly speaking date-wise, pre 1850 ordinary soldiers did have wives in India, (brought them out or married children of soldiers stationed there) as did commissioned officers, but after that period (Victorian era) it was less frequent as marriage of troops was not encouraged. In the early 1800’s young women who could not find husbands in England were brought out to try their luck there – they were “officer class” rather than soldier wife class and known as “the Fishing Fleet” . The wife / child mortality rates were very high, which is why children (usually those of officers) were sent back to England for schooling. Single officers were encouraged to take native “partners” to help them learn the local languages/dialects (for work reasons) but they rarely would have married them. It was exceptional for troops to marry a native girl but it did happen.

“Plain Tales of the Raj” by Charles Allen will give you a good flavour of the era (and a very good read for anyone with an interest in history). Do not rule out an Australian connection – the only “Indian” family I studied resulted from the meeting of an Army officer from India who went to Australia to buy horses/polo ponies (apparently those in Oz were better acclimatised to heat and were immune to various diseases in India.)

National Archives at Kew is a goldmine, not very easy to search until you get used to it and can be very expensive if you cannot get there. Enjoy the search!

Hermy · 03-09-2015 10:36am

Interesting thread.

My great great grandfather Francis Monks served with the British Army in India and died there in 1889 of dysentery.
His son, also Francis, served Hon. Gerald Fitzgerald of 6 Fitzwilliam Square from the early 1900's.

I'm sure it's nothing more than coincidence that nikonuser and I both share a link between India and Fitzwilliam Square but I often wondered how a lad born in Cork, the son of a man based in India, ended up working as a servant for a well-to-do individual in Dublin. Might the father's army connections have assisted the sons career? These imponderables are what make genealogy so intriguing.

pedroeibar1 · 03-09-2015 7:18pm

Hermy wrote: »

Interesting thread.

My great great grandfather Francis Monks served with the British Army in India and died there in 1889 of dysentery.
His son, also Francis, served Hon. Gerald Fitzgerald of 6 Fitzwilliam Square from the early 1900's.

I'm sure it's nothing more than coincidence that nikonuser and I both share a link between India and Fitzwilliam Square but I often wondered how a lad born in Cork, the son of a man based in India, ended up working as a servant for a well-to-do individual in Dublin. Might the father's army connections have assisted the sons career? These imponderables are what make genealogy so intriguing.

Hermy,
I’d suggest that the connections would have been very beneficial. Army people are trained to look after each other, so sticking together is ingrained. Also, an ex-soldier/son of an ex would have been deemed “loyal” and given preference. (Side note - the Meroe in nikonuser’s post if he had an Indian “connection” is more likely to be Presidencies/the Indian Army, whereas your Monks was “Army in India” which was made up of British Army troops/regiments stationed there.) There was considerable segregation then, native troops living in separate 'lines'.

Fitzwilliam Square –home to mainly Anglo-Irish gentry and professional families, most of them (if not all) had family members in the Indian Service, so your man could have been referred by a neighbour to Fitzgerald. (Then as now the best jobs were filled by word of mouth, not adverts) I’d guess that the Hon Gerald Fitzgerald at No.6 was from the legal family (probably a son of John David FitzGerald, Baron FitzGerald of Kilmarnock) - you could check that family to see if there was a close relative serving in India.
The supply of Colonial rulers and administrators to India from Ireland was huge. Mid 1800’s Trinity and the Queens Colleges (NUIG, NUIC,QUB) all had programmes geared towards the Indian Service – languages, Indian Law, Tropical diseases, etc. The Irish doctor I researched started his studies in 1850s Queens Cork and graduated from Edinburgh which had a highly regarded Med School before going out to INdia.

I agree the imponderables are fun, and add that the longer you ponder the higher the chance of encountering a glimmer that could turn into the flame that would ignite a whole family history. "Dans les champs de l'observation, le hasard ne favorise que les esprits préparés.:)

Hermy · 03-09-2015 9:58pm

Great post Pedro and spot on about Gerald being a son of Baron Fitzgerald of Kilmarnock.

Hopefully a study of the Fitzgerald family might explain the connection as both Francis and his sister served Gerald in Fitzwilliam Square and their sister served David Fitzgerald in Clyde Road.

And your last point is a favourite theme of mine - how the smallest crumb of information can reveal an entire branch of a tree that might otherwise remain obscured.

nikonuser · 04-09-2015 3:18pm

Many thanks for all the suggestions and advice above.

'Might the father's army connections have assisted the sons career?' as Hermy suggests. John Meroe, my GG Grandfather, judging by his worsening ill fortune from when he is in Dublin, after 1854 (approx.) did not seem to have gained any advantage if he had been in the regular Army. So, your suggestions as to his being associated with the East India Company sounds more plausible.

The Army Officer he was suppose to have been a Batman to, may only possibly have been in Fitzwilliam Sq. Not knowing his name or anything about him seems to be leading my to a blank wall.

Meroe, however, lived the rest of his life as far from the comforts of Fitzwilliam Sq as was possible with varying addresses around Cook St in the Liberties. His wife, Mary Anne Caulfield, my GG Granny, dies 39 years of age of Cholera. When John remarries the next year, 1867 (approx.) his next 2 children both die very young. He finishes his days in the South Dublin Union dying of Bronchitis aged 60. HIs final journey was to a paupers grave in Glasnevin. His story is probably very typical of the time.

Furthering the India Connection, his son, Thomas, who was born in Calcutta in 1854 (approx.), according to the Irish Prisons Register, was described as very sallow and had an 'Anchor' tattoo on his arm. He, likewise married, lost a wife and children to those diseases of poverty and ended his days, like his father, in the South Dublin Union, with T.B.

I have begun the search in FIBIS and the India Family sites, nothing so far but i will keep searching.

And, referring to Hermy again: I still search for that 'smallest crumb'.

J

KildareFan · 06-09-2015 6:27pm

Some results on the surname Meroe from the South Dublin Union Workhouse records on Findmypast:

Mary Meroe 8 Mill Yard, married, aged 28, tailor, admitted 30 June 1868, released 16 July 1868

John Meroe, b. abt 1819, admitted to South Dublin Union Workhouse on 15 Jan 1878, and released on 2 Feb 1878, his address was 1 Kennedy's lane; he was admitted again on 2 May 1879, died 26 Jan 1880. His address in 1880 was 2 Mill Yard, South city [from records of South Dublin Union on Findmypast]; on both records he was aged 60, dealer, married, RC,

Thomas Meroe, age 45, widower, coach builder, 17 Werburgh St, admitted 21st May 1898, released 7 Jun 1898
The following children of a coachpainter [presumably Thomas Meroe], admitted to South Dublin Union Workhouse, 2 Dec 1886 brought in by Bessie Nolan; address 16 Nicholas Street, deserted by father
Mary Anne Meroe 14, left 16 Aug 1887
Thomas Meroe 6, sent 19 May 1887 ‘to nurse’
Margaret 4 sent 19 May 1887 ‘to nurse’
Workhouse admission and discharge records, v. G book 64 (1 October 1886, no. 3241) - v. G book 69 (27 December 1889, no. 2240)

Another Thomas Meroe:
Thomas Meroe, 34, painter, single, admitted with bronchitis, living at 90 Bride St, admitted, 15 Nov 1893, released 14 Feb 1894
admitted 31 Dec 1895 released 7 Feb 1896 address 34 Bride Street,

nikonuser · 06-09-2015 8:08pm

KildareFan: thanks so much for that. There are a few discrepancies with dates but those people you refer to are all my family. Those addresses crop up on the various Certificates, Marriage, Death and Birth, though they seem to change regularly.

John Meroe: GG Grandfather, was in Calcutta in 1854 (ish), and in Dublin in 1864. He died, 60 years, according to his Death Certificate 08/07/1879 of Bronchitis in the SDU Workhouse. He is in Glasnevin in a paupers' grave.

Thomas Meroe: son of the above, John, born in Calcutta in 1854 (ish), from the Irish Prison Register. He died in the SDU Workhouse 12/01/1899 of, what I think says "Purtritis" on his Death Certificate. He is in Glasnevin.

Mary Anne Meroe: Marries a John Whelan in 1898 and dies 5 years later of "Phithitis", again writing on Death Certificate unclear. She is in Glasnevin with her Dad.

Thomas, the younger one was born in 1878 and dies in 1889, age 10 years, buried in Glasnevin in a separate grave.

Margaret Meroe is the only one of those children alive in the 1911 Census, a domestic servant in Mountjoy. I have no trace of her after that. Where she ended up is unknown.

The Mary Meroe, 'Mill Lane' was John Meroe's second wife, he married after my GG Granny, Mary Anne Meroe died in 1866. the 'new' Mary dies in 1908, aged 65 years. Also buried in Glasnevin.

The recorded comments re Thomas Meroe: 'deserted by father' must tell a story in itself. Poverty? Personality?

John Meroe's other son, Patrick, born in Dublin 1864 also comes to an inglorious end, he is killed in a Tram Accident in Ballsbridge in 1899, a month after his brother Thomas. He is also buried with his brother & niece in Glasnevin.

As an aside: Two weeks ago our family had a little ceremony and placed a plaque on their grave in Glasnevin, it was unmarked up to that.

Slowly the facts sometime emerge but the stories behind those facts are what really keep me guessing.

Again many thanks for all your help.

Cheers, J

KildareFan · 06-09-2015 8:19pm

Interesting to find out what Thomas was in prison for:
Thomas Meroe, 19, born Calcutta, 5’1.5”, brown hair and eyes sallow skin,, wound mark on left breast, anchor & crown etc; 12 Kennedy Lane, coach painter, RC, could read and write, 29 July 1873, charged with being absent from employment, being an apprentice, imprisoned in Richmond Bridewell for two calendar months, released 29th Sept 1873 http://bit.ly/1i6bYpB

DUBLIN-BRIDEWELL (RICHMOND) PRISON GENERAL REGISTER 1872-1873; Book No 1/13/38, Item 4

L1011 · 06-09-2015 8:22pm

KildareFan wrote: »

Interesting to find out what Thomas was in prison for:
Thomas Meroe, 19, born Calcutta, 5’1.5”, brown hair and eyes sallow skin,, wound mark on left breast, anchor & crown etc; 12 Kennedy Lane, coach painter, RC, could read and write, 29 July 1873, charged with being absent from employment, being an apprentice, imprisoned in Richmond Bridewell for two calendar months, released 29th Sept 1873 http://bit.ly/1i6bYpB

DUBLIN-BRIDEWELL (RICHMOND) PRISON GENERAL REGISTER 1872-1873; Book No 1/13/38, Item 4

Running away from an indentured apprenticeship was an offence so I'd imagine it was only that.

nikonuser · 06-09-2015 8:31pm

Thanks for those above. It was Thomas' 'Calcutta' birthplace that was the first definite proof of an Indian connection so long alluded to in our family. Up to then we could only guess by the obvious genetic traits.

They were so very different times, we can hardly imagine their lives. Larkin's revolution was in the distant future.
J

wexflyer · 08-09-2015 4:06pm

Did I miss, or has there been no mention of the fact that the Indian records are available at the British Library, and that they are extensively indexed online?
For example, birth of John Morrow, 1819
Birth12 Feb1819
Baptism18 Mar1819

I presume that Meroe is simply an unusual name variant of something like Morrow?

nikonuser · 08-09-2015 6:30pm

wexflyer,

Many thanks for your response.

No, you didn't miss anything, but I obviously did. I found the entry & the date, 1819 is correct (for his age of 60 in 1879, from his Death Certificate).

The name variants I have seen with positive links have always been Me...Ma etc. The 'Morrow' one certainly though seems plausible.

Next step is to find the link.

Cheers and many thanks for that, wexflyer.
J

nikonuser · 09-09-2015 12:47pm

wexflyer, above,
suggested 'Morrow' as a variant to what, in all my genealogical innocence I assumed would be either 'Meroe, Merro, Maro, Marroe' etc.

So, going a bit mad on the spellings, I found a Marriage Record in St. Nicholas's, 21/05/1867 for a Johannes Mireaw (possibly Mirean). It's the John Meroe I have been looking for. It was his second marriage, less than a year after his first wife died of Cholera. His new bride was Mary Gannon (alia Mulhall). Obviously she hadn't much luck in her previously married life either. Addresses match. Her name is on Birth Certificates for 2 children they have in '68 & '74 (neither lived too long).

His parents, on the Church entry, though hard to decipher appear to be Johannes Thomas & Maria Mirean. Then there is xxx East Indies in the 'Denunciations' column. I will have to try & get the word 'xxx' preceeding 'East Indies' deciphered.

Onwards, to India.

Cheers, J

KildareFan · 09-09-2015 2:02pm

Well done. I had a look at the register and don't think the xxx with East Indies is significant - it just looks like a blotch on the page - like lots of other blotches.

If you look at the rest of the names on the page, you will see that the father's surname is not given, as it's assumed to be the surname of the bride or groom.

It looks to me that the parents of John Mirean/w were Johannes [John] Thomas [Mirean/w] and Maria Miriam Beronis, East Indies.

It gives you a good approximation of John's mother's name although given the spelling of Mirean/w you'll need to think very laterally.

You can check the civil certificate at GRO:
Maria Gannon & John Mirean Dublin South 1867 Vol 7 p680

nikonuser · 09-09-2015 3:27pm

KildareFan, Cheers.

A visit to Werburgh St is in order. Hopefully the Civil Certificate may have something to add to the puzzle, thanks for the reference.

The name variants are amazing considering I started this search originally with 'Mayro' (with a strong Dublin accent)!

The 'John Morrow' from 'wexflyer' & the British Library, b:1819 had raised my hopes but there is at this stage nothing to suggest that Morrow and Mirea?? are not the same man.

Hopefully the new names may produce results with the various Indian Databases.

Thanks again.
J

nikonuser · 09-09-2015 9:05pm

Having looked again at the Church entry Marriage Certificate attached by KildareFan, above, and the names of the parents of Johannes Mirean/w, Johannes Thomas & Maria Miriam I wonder if the next word, beginning with a 'B' might refer to a place as opposed to the mother's maiden name. That column seems to have addresses in it. The brides parents are listed with the one surname, Mulhall.
Should it be a place name it may refer to somewhere in the East Indies, which follows.
I could be way off the mark here.
J

KildareFan · 09-09-2015 9:54pm

you're right - their address is B? East Indies. Possibly Benares (now Varenesi) but that's 600km from Calcutta.... need to look at the map of India to see what comes up.

nikonuser · 09-09-2015 11:05pm

Cheers, I'll follow that up & will post any findings.
Thanks again,
J

pedroeibar1 · 10-09-2015 10:04am

KildareFan wrote: »

you're right - their address is B? East Indies. Possibly Benares (now Varenesi) but that's 600km from Calcutta.... need to look at the map of India to see what comes up.

I agree with Benares - and it also (confusingly) is described as "East Indies" (rather than a reference to the chain of islands).

nikonuser · 10-09-2015 10:09am

pedroeibar, thanks for that. More confusion is what I need

Could 'East Indies' be a reference to the East India Company? And if so, why? I am starting to enter Benares in to my searches in FIBIS & the British Library.
I'll post what is found, if anything.
Cheers, J

pedroeibar1 · 10-09-2015 10:46am

No, East Indies is a location description. However, it (Benares/Benaras) was a city/district controlled by the EIC.

An "East Indian" is used as a description of an Indian R. Catholic from those parts. The area around Bombay - by Indian standards - had quite a big RC population as a result of the Portugese (Goa, etc.) and then the stronger British influence from the era of Charles II & the EIC.
You will often find the place described as "Benares, East Indies" in the NA at Kew.

nikonuser · 10-09-2015 11:37am

pedroeibar,
Again thanks for the information. RC seems to be plausible seeing as John Meroe & his family had ties with the RC Churches here in Dublin through marriages & baptisms. Anything that helps narrow down the search I'm sure will be helpful.

As Bombay (Mumbai) is at the opposite side of the country to Benares (Varanasi) were all RC natives described as East Indian I wonder?
J

nikonuser · 10-09-2015 12:39pm

pedroeibar

When you state that:
'An "East Indian" is used as a description of an Indian R. Catholic from those parts,' would this be in any way confirmation that John Mirean/x's Parents were of Indian origin? The only use I have of that term is the Marriage Record from St. Nicholas filled in by, I presume, Fr. Hickey in the Church Register, 21 March 1867.
I know that John Meroe (various spellings) & his wife, Mary Anne Meroe (nee Caulfield) were in, probably Calcutta having their son Thomas in 1854 (ish).
My genetic pool leans towards dark skin, sallow, black hair etc & we attribute this to Indian genes but whether from John Meroe or his wife is unclear. Now that John Meroe's (Mirean/w) parents have at least an entry in a Register as being East Indian may lean the argument towards the Mereo's.

pedroeibar1 · 10-09-2015 11:22pm

Apologies Nikonuser, my bad, I should have taken more time to make my response clearer. At that time there were two main centres of Roman Catholicism in India, west coast around Bombay/Goa (Mumbai / whatever Goa is called now) and on the East Coast around Calcutta/Kolkota. Bombay was hugely important to the EIC and went back to the 1600’s. Calcutta was the centre of the EIC presence and the capital of India under the Raj, so for your dates (1850s) there was a huge amount going on politically and militarily across India, e.g. the Government of India Act 1853 that put the screw on the EIC followed by the Mutiny in 1857. People moved / were moved all over.

“East Indies” is locative, i.e describing a place, so a deceased army officer, a white guy from Ireland who died in Calcutta (or even Benares) could be describes as being from “The East Indies” in the probate records. It would not confirm (or deny) ethnicity, it simply stated where he lived.

“East Indian” generally refers to an Indian Roman Catholic who could live either in Calcutta or Bombay – it is a descriptor of ethnicity and religion combined, rather than location.

Do not be put off by surname spelling differences, I’m up to 14 variations of mine.
A DNA test would indicate the male line, Irish or Indian; others would be more knowledgeable than I on that topic.

Luckily for me the lady I researched was easy, Irish, a Kerrywoman, a staunch Prod, who died out there , her children were sent back to Ireland so all I needed to check was her exact date of death and out of curiosity see if she had other children out there.

nikonuser · 11-09-2015 9:20am

pedroeibar,
Cheers for all that, background to the story can only add to my perceptions of their lives.

Your reference to Roman Catholics.
The first connection to the Church I have with this family is the 1864 Baptism of Patrick Mero in St. Audeon's, parents Joanis & Marianna Coffey (Caulfield I assume, as was on the Civil Certificate). Their son, Thomas, the one born in Calcutta was a Witness.

The next Church connection is Johannes Mirean/n getting married in St Nicholas' in 1867, 18 months after his first wife dies (1866). there is no reference to him being non-Catholic. I have trawled through many Church records and I have never found the clergy shy about referring to a 'Protestant'.

From this, I am going to assume I am dealing with a 'Catholic' family.

'East Indies', the reference on the above Church Marriage entry, you suggest it may be locative. And the 'Benares' entry combined with 'Calcutta' as the Birthplace for Thomas Meroe (from Irish Prisons Register) would point me towards that area. The notation in the British Library for 'John Morrow', born 1819 St Helena suggests different of course, mid-Atlantic, Napoleon etc (I assume this is the same place).

As for 'Military'. That this 'John Meroe' was a Batman who accompanied a British Army Officer to Dublin is really only family lore. I have no evidence of it. But, was it made up? It is a plausible scenario. The why's of a family coming from India to live in the most poor area of Dublin are unknown. It would have been expensive for a husband, wife & a child to come to Dublin, via England probably. So being brought by an employer make sense.

So far, I have no 'hits' on the names in FIBIS of the British Library even with name variations, not quite 14 like you, I am up to 9 so far.

I will keep looking.

Your search seemed to have been fruitful for you. Well done.
J

pedroeibar1 · 11-09-2015 10:18pm

Nikon, I'm deep into another project (deadline) and cannot get my head around all you've written, but do not dismiss St. Helena - it and bermuda and Capetown were ports of call to/from India (I think it depended on the time of year whether St. H was a call outbound or homeward bound.) It was a major fort for the EIC.
Rs.P

wexflyer · 11-09-2015 11:34pm

Nikonuser,
If I were you, I think I would want to check the coverage of the British Library indexing of their Indian records holdings in terms of location, date and religious affiliation. By that I mean:
- Does the indexing over Calcutta and the Bengal province (location)?
- Does the indexing cover the dates you are interested in, i.e. ca 1819, onwards (date)?
- Do they include Catholic records, or not (affiliation)?
Knowing our Brit friends, I very much doubt that they included any Catholic records in 1819, or for many years after (if at all).
If any one of these three conditions is not met, then it would suggest that "your" family might simply not be in the BL index (and records).

My very quick online search in the BL index only threw up a single record for anyone with a name even remotely like what you are looking for - the John Morrow, born 1819, St. Helena. As it happens, 1819 is exactly the date you were looking for, and St, Helena was indeed administered by the EIC - that is why this record is part of the Indian collection. On the other hand, as I just pointed out, I strongly suspect that no Catholic records were included in what is now the BL "Indian" records at that time.

Finally, with regard to your g-g-grandmother, why do you prefer the surname recorded in the civil registration (Caulfield) over the surname in the parish register (Coffey)? Absent other information, I would think that neither is any more likely than the other?

India Connection

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