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"Southern" Ireland... do you mean 'Ireland'?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭cson


    micmclo wrote: »
    They call it Southern Ireland and I'd say many don't know it's a Republic. But what's worse if you go up north and elderly people call it the Free State which went in 1949, they realy have no excuse

    Free state ceased in 1937 when Bunreacht na hEireann came into effect.
    palomca wrote: »
    Sorry, but hearing a southerner say something along the lines of "no, I'm not southern Irish, I'm Irish" absolutely makes my blood boil!:mad:

    As someone from Northern Ireland, something that annoys me even more (actually, INFURIATES me) is the fact that those in the Republic have the complete and utter arrogance to call their country just 'Ireland' in the first place, without any differentiator from the island as a whole.

    In Northern Ireland we are as Irish as you southerners, but that does not mean that your state should try and pretend that you can sovereignty over the whole island (supposedly the constitution of the Republic was altered to remove this in response to the 1998 Good Friday Agreement).

    I could even argue (in a partially tongue-in-cheek way) that in Northern Ireland we are more the true Irish than those in the Republic. We have not lost sight of our greater heritage within the British Isles (to me the identity in the south is more based on the flaky belief that you are 'not British' - this is undoubtedly true in modern political terms, but not in the greater geographical and cultural terms). Additionally, a large part of Irish mythology comes from Ulster.

    If only those in the south would realise that there are a large amount of wounds that would be healed throughout the island if those in the Republic would have the decency to name their country in a much less-ambiguous fashion. Because of your choice to name your country in such an ambiguous way, we have unionist idiots here in the north that will not call themselves 'Irish', all because of the confusion that is caused by the shambolic naming of the southern Irish state. Prior to partition, all unionists/protestants would have called themselves 'Irish' - now not so. The only way they all will once more, is if those in the south have he forethought and intelligence to consider calling their state something more humble than just 'Ireland'. (I'm crossing my fingers here, but am not optimistic that the capability of that forethought in the south is actually possible...)

    Article 4 of the constitution states the name of the state is "Eire" or in english "Ireland". The Republic of Ireland act 1948 effectively only served to remove the last vestiges of the crown from the state, not to rename the state. The claim to territory of all of the island ceased after Article 2 was ameded following a referendum after the Good Friday agreement. This more or less ceded the North to the UK for the forseeable future.

    To be honest, you're being very pedantic in dragging up a 2 year old thread basically to make a point about what the state is called. I'd hazard a guess that if i was as simple as the Unionists only having an issue with what Irish people referred to their State as, then the problem of partition would be solved easily. However as a resident of Northern Ireland I'm sure you can appreciate that the issues run somewhat more deeply than that.

    Seeing as this is after hours I think this quote is appropriate in the circumstances;

    "Freedom? Freedom's just a word. If I had to die for a word, it'd be 'poontang'."

    Get over it. ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,986 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    cson wrote: »
    Free state ceased in 1937 when Bunreacht na hEireann came into effect.

    Tell that to the people of Northern Ireland. ;)
    I've read in the GAA forum about supporters being called "Free State bastards" by supporters from the 6 counties which is kind of contradictory from a GAA fan.
    Having worked in Belfast I often heard "oh you're from the Free State"

    Living in the past I tell ya


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 738 ✭✭✭TheVan


    I lived in London last year and the 'Southern Ireland' thing drove me nutty too....and I'm the last person to actually care!

    Of course, the traditional English were trampled all over by the Normans in 1066, the Normans came over here in 1169 and pretty much took over so in reality we're all the same really! If anything, we're all Vikings/French!




  • TheVan wrote: »
    I lived in London last year and the 'Southern Ireland' thing drove me nutty too....and I'm the last person to actually care!

    For most British people it's simple logic! if one part of the country is called "Northern Ireland" then logically the other bit must be "Southern Ireland"

    Think North London, South London or Northern England/Southern England...

    It's all the same, British people just prefer to use geographic terminology rather than political when referring to any location within the British Isles*



    *another name that's a smoking gun for some republicans


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,872 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    History is nothing more than the science and teaching of hate.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭Bottle_of_Smoke


    TheVan wrote: »
    I lived in London last year and the 'Southern Ireland' thing drove me nutty too....and I'm the last person to actually care!

    Why does it bother ya? I'm from dublin but living in derry, i often say I'm from "down south"

    "southern" is just easier to say than " The Republic of"


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,729 ✭✭✭Pride Fighter


    I am from Dublin. I am not from Southern Ireland. I am from Eastern Ireland and if anyone disagrees with me look at a bloody map.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭Bottle_of_Smoke


    [PHP][/PHP]
    I am from Dublin. I am not from Southern Ireland. I am from Eastern Ireland and if anyone disagrees with me look at a bloody map.

    You're from the eastern part of Southern Ireland. Like some one from Seoul is from north of South Korea


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,340 ✭✭✭✭rossie1977


    Why does it bother ya? I'm from dublin but living in derry, i often say I'm from "down south"

    "southern" is just easier to say than " The Republic of"

    so what happens if you are from donegal and you are working in fermanagh or armagh or down, do you say I'm from "down south" when in fact you are from up north ;)

    in fact if you live in inishowen everywhere in northern ireland is down south


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭salonfire


    rossie1977 wrote: »
    so what happens if you are from donegal and you are working in fermanagh or armagh or down, do you say I'm from "down south" when in fact you are from up north ;)

    yes. I live in Donegal and work in Tyrone and always refer to the "south" even though I'm more northern than anyone in NI!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 347 ✭✭Irlbo


    Just something that makes unionists comfortable by thinking its a strange foreign land afew miles South down the road from them,and allows britain to maintain its impereal nature by teaching the kids,that the North of Ireland is part of Britain and that the catholics and nationalists that live there are murdering terrorists,implanting a small notion in their minds that supports the occupation and that all Irish particulary ''Northern Irish'' are monsters


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,191 ✭✭✭✭Latchy


    I had the honour of reading some history books, British curriculum history books no less.. still used in England today.

    The Brits in school are taught about "Irish" history in a very different way than we are, as I discovered. I put 'Irish' in quotes because it is taught as "other history of the British isles".

    Irish history in the English curriculum is extremely scarce, and any mention of the island of Ireland refers to mainly Northern Ireland and the IRA terrorists killing the innocent British protestants - the rightful British landowners in Ireland who were “discriminated against” and "disrespected by the Catholics".

    Ireland (as we know it) is referred to as "Southern" Ireland only, which is a part the British Isles (pictures showing Ireland and Britain with "BRITISH ISLES" plastered all over Ireland - very misleading me thinks. This is why Brits ask me if I’m “southern Irish”. I say “No, I’m not from Cork, I’m from Dublin, I’m Irish….”

    According to this book, the problems in N.I are due to the... “long established British protestants” and “the Catholic differences that opposed them and wanted to invade the protestant, British land”. Also, some vague mention of England granting "Southern Ireland" some sort of limited control over “some southern areas’.

    OK, let’s pretend that I'm a British kid learning history in Britain. As far as I'm concerned, the island of Ireland belongs to the UK, all the people from Ireland were originally British, and the 'troubles' on that little island are due to the minority Catholic 'backward' people, and also the IRA terrorists. It’s these pesky ‘Irish’ people that became greedy and wanted the land in Ireland for themselves.

    I AM TELLING YOU NOW – I have lived and worked in the UK for 3 years – This is what the majority of English people think.

    You’d be surprised at how many think that the whole Island of Ireland is ruled by London and that the Irish people are of royal blood and that the Union Jack represents the two islands. I pity these people, I pity the fact that they have been fed bull**** for most of there lives.

    Why do the Brits censor their shameful history? The Germans are taught EVERYTHING about their history - I respect the Germans in that they know the TRUTH about their country’s history. I also respect the Dutch because they are taught MORE about Irish history than the Brits– I cannot count the amount of times the Dutch have apologised for mistaking me as British!

    Some 'facts' from British education:

    "The Gaelic language comes from Scotland. All music, language and culture originated from British Scotland ....... The Southern Irish still use old Scottish Gaelic placenames on their road signs, they cling to their links with the other British languages."

    Wrong. Irish comes from Ireland. The Scottish language comes from Irish. The Scots came from Ireland!
    I think OP is generalising .You think of British / history in more recent times then one thinks of the NI troubles and your average british kid at primary level is thought that '' we won the war ,and we beat Hitler .But outside school they hardly give a monkeys for their own history or any other countrys ,never mind irelands and i cant really agree with OP's views .Students and adults of higher education will have a better grasp of 'Ireland ' southern Ireland ' EIRE ' in their learning and understanding of British/Irish history more than the average joe but i have at times over 20 years living here being surprised by how well up some ordianary english people are about British/ Irish history .


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 184 ✭✭ibuprofen


    palomca wrote: »
    Sorry, but hearing a southerner say something along the lines of "no, I'm not southern Irish, I'm Irish" absolutely makes my blood boil!:mad:

    As someone from Northern Ireland, something that annoys me even more (actually, INFURIATES me) is the fact that those in the Republic have the complete and utter arrogance to call their country just 'Ireland' in the first place, without any differentiator from the island as a whole.

    In Northern Ireland we are as Irish as you southerners, but that does not mean that your state should try and pretend that you can sovereignty over the whole island (supposedly the constitution of the Republic was altered to remove this in response to the 1998 Good Friday Agreement).

    I could even argue (in a partially tongue-in-cheek way) that in Northern Ireland we are more the true Irish than those in the Republic. We have not lost sight of our greater heritage within the British Isles (to me the identity in the south is more based on the flaky belief that you are 'not British' - this is undoubtedly true in modern political terms, but not in the greater geographical and cultural terms). Additionally, a large part of Irish mythology comes from Ulster.

    If only those in the south would realise that there are a large amount of wounds that would be healed throughout the island if those in the Republic would have the decency to name their country in a much less-ambiguous fashion. Because of your choice to name your country in such an ambiguous way, we have unionist idiots here in the north that will not call themselves 'Irish', all because of the confusion that is caused by the shambolic naming of the southern Irish state. Prior to partition, all unionists/protestants would have called themselves 'Irish' - now not so. The only way they all will once more, is if those in the south have he forethought and intelligence to consider calling their state something more humble than just 'Ireland'. (I'm crossing my fingers here, but am not optimistic that the capability of that forethought in the south is actually possible...)


    Humerous post, it's veracity is questionable . I've a few comments on your post.

    If you say you're Irish it means your from Ireland whether it be the north or the Republic same as saying your english means you're from England, Spanish from Spain etc. I wouldn't get too upset about it

    The term british isles no longer exists in Ireland.

    Being british means you are from britian. britian being the bigger of the two islands. I can't see why you would see that as being flaky or geographical or culturally true.

    "Great Britain" is the eastern island of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Politically, "Great Britain" describes the combination of England, Scotland, and Wales, and therefore also includes a number of outlying islands such as the Isle of Wight, Anglesey, the Isles of Scilly, the Hebrides, and the island groups of Orkney and Shetland. It does not include the outlying islands of the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands as they have independent legislative and taxation systems.[6][7]


    So unionists don't call themselves irish because of confusion in the name of the irish state. It has noting to do with unionist ideology???

    Perhaps you could use some forethought and intelligence in relation to this matter instead of angrily casting blame and trying to force your opinion upon others...... just a suggestion.:(

    p.s. if you want to persist pushing your view upon others why don't you set up a few user names and agree with yourself.:D



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 88,978 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    Please lock.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭cson


    Lads, the thread is over 2 years old.

    Let it slide.


  • Registered Users Posts: 847 ✭✭✭thejuggler


    Its an interesting discussion. I think that there is a lot of confusion by the British in what to refer to our nation as. Over the years I have received letters from the UK where the country is referrred to as Ireland, Southern Ireland, Irish Republic, Republic of Ireland and 'Eire'
    Maybe there is too much terminology. I always use 'Republic of Ireland' when ordering something online but I frequently find that the country is changed to one of the other variations. It probably boils down to whatever term is most familiar to the individual.
    As other posters have said I definitely don't think there is any malice involved. In fact some Brits I have spoken to don't realise that Northern Ireland is British. Ireland is Ireland to them and as a different island seems separate to their notion of the UK. Names and geography of other countries just aren't very important to the average person.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,389 ✭✭✭✭Saruman


    Why is having Ireland as one of the "British Isles" misleading? We are a British isle!! We were a British isle before the english came to power on the Island they occupy now. Long before they invaded this Island.
    Geographicaly we are, always have been and always will be a British isle.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,191 ✭✭✭✭Latchy


    thejuggler wrote: »
    It probably boils down to whatever term is most familiar to the individual.
    As other posters have said I definitely don't think there is any malice involved. In fact some Brits I have spoken to don't realise that Northern Ireland is British. Ireland is Ireland to them and as a different island seems separate to their notion of the UK. Names and geography of other countries just aren't very important to the average person.
    Indeed when i am posting parcels to ROI in local post office the girl always ask's ' southern or northern ireland ? .

    Saruman wrote: »
    Why is having Ireland as one of the "British Isles" misleading? We are a British isle!! We were a British isle before the english came to power on the Island they occupy now. Long before they invaded this Island.
    Geographicaly we are, always have been and always will be a British isle.
    Something I discovered as a kid after school in ireland .


  • Registered Users Posts: 831 ✭✭✭DubArk


    palomca wrote: »
    Sorry, but hearing a southerner say something along the lines of "no, I'm not southern Irish, I'm Irish" absolutely makes my blood boil!:mad:

    As someone from Northern Ireland, something that annoys me even more (actually, INFURIATES me) is the fact that those in the Republic have the complete and utter arrogance to call their country just 'Ireland' in the first place, without any differentiator from the island as a whole.

    In Northern Ireland we are as Irish as you southerners, but that does not mean that your state should try and pretend that you can sovereignty over the whole island (supposedly the constitution of the Republic was altered to remove this in response to the 1998 Good Friday Agreement).

    I could even argue (in a partially tongue-in-cheek way) that in Northern Ireland we are more the true Irish than those in the Republic. We have not lost sight of our greater heritage within the British Isles (to me the identity in the south is more based on the flaky belief that you are 'not British' - this is undoubtedly true in modern political terms, but not in the greater geographical and cultural terms). Additionally, a large part of Irish mythology comes from Ulster.

    If only those in the south would realise that there are a large amount of wounds that would be healed throughout the island if those in the Republic would have the decency to name their country in a much less-ambiguous fashion. Because of your choice to name your country in such an ambiguous way, we have unionist idiots here in the north that will not call themselves 'Irish', all because of the confusion that is caused by the shambolic naming of the southern Irish state. Prior to partition, all unionists/protestants would have called themselves 'Irish' - now not so. The only way they all will once more, is if those in the south have he forethought and intelligence to consider calling their state something more humble than just 'Ireland'. (I'm crossing my fingers here, but am not optimistic that the capability of that forethought in the south is actually possible...)

    You're a very angry person.

    Rather then getting your knickers in a knot and making huge generalisations in only your second post, why dont you celebrate what we have in common and stop trying to put a wedge between both communities.

    We're all sick of the old days when people couldn't agree about place names and so forth, so much blood spilt!!

    I live in Dublin and i will call myself Southern Irish if you take a deep breath and realise that making your blood boil over such things is not good for your health or those you're aming your anger at.

    :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭asdasd


    I dont mind the Southern Irish thing. Two things bug me

    1) Most English people dont know anything about Potato famines, Penal laws, Cromwell etc. And if they do we should just get over it. The dogs on the street know that Ireland was neutral in WWII.
    2) It is fairly common to believe that we Irish are fighting amongst ourselves in Northern Ireland. It is part of the UK. This is rarer but when people ask me what is going on with the Irish problem, I am quick to wonder what is going on with the British problem, in the UK part of the Island i was born into. That can be very confusing to them.

    as in

    British chap : What is going on with you Irish in Northern Ireland?
    Asdasd: what is going on with you British in the UK up there?

    I realise this kind of talk will also piss off some northeners.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 347 ✭✭Irlbo


    Its Ireland,not Eire or 'republic' of Ireland,not Southern Ireland',not Northern Ireland,Ireland,we dont have to go by governments and establishment to be told what to call our country,and in regards British Isles,who says they are the British isles,just because some long dead person said so


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,191 ✭✭✭✭Latchy


    asdasd wrote: »
    I dont mind the Southern Irish thing. Two things bug me

    1) Most English people dont know anything about Potato famines, Penal laws, Cromwell etc. And if they do we should just get over it. The dogs on the street know that Ireland was neutral in WWII.
    2) It is fairly common to believe that we Irish are fighting amongst ourselves in Northern Ireland. It is part of the UK. This is rarer but when people ask me what is going on with the Irish problem, I am quick to wonder what is going on with the British problem, in the UK part of the Island i was born into. That can be very confusing to them.

    as in

    British chap : What is going on with you Irish in Northern Ireland?
    Asdasd: what is going on with you British in the UK up there?

    I realise this kind of talk will also piss off some northeners.
    Reminds me of the quote a very famous (deceased) irish actor gave to royalty once when he was presented to them at an award .This was at the height of the troubles In NI .He was introduced to the Queen who said to him '' I see your having problems over in your country ? to which he dryly replied '' that's the problem you see ,you think it's ( country ) yours''.

    Something I was wondering about and that is .....was our education at irish school ( in my case the de la salle ) very anti british based ?

    I left school hating the english due to the years spent in class learing about the famine and all the atrocities comminted by the british over the centurys .But looking back i can see how the christian brothers teachings were not only hard and cruel at times, but also leaned heavly, towards republicinism ,in the same way the german youth were taught anti semitisim .I am a lot older and mature now to look back and understand were all that hatred and frustration came from and see that ireland in the late 60s was still very much the Rebel country ( before the troubles began which added more to the hatred )

    were we taught this hatred at school ?

    Just wondering about others thoughts on this ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 388 ✭✭Scoobydoobydoo


    dbnavan wrote: »
    Its silly arguments that can get out of hand, if northern ireland is northern ireland well then obviously the Republic is southern Ireland, has nothing to do with politics or irish vs english, its just simple geography.

    This does annoy me a bit to be honest, as obviously the Republic consists of a lot more than the South. I consider the south to be Munster in general. If I'm on the phone to a customer care dept in the UK and they refer to me as being in Southern Ireland, I say no, I'm in in Dublin, which is in the east. Just stating a fact, I don't care what anyone thinks of that. I don't live in the south, simple as that. If I lived in Cork, I wouldn't have anything to say!
    If someone mentioned southern Britain, would that be considered to be places such as Cornwall, Devon, Sussex etc. - or the entire countries of England and Wales?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,793 ✭✭✭✭Hagar


    palomca wrote: »
    Additionally, a large part of Irish mythology comes from Ulster.
    Indeed it does. But you would do well to remember that it all predates the Plantation of Ulster when the English ran the descendants of those mythological Irish off the land or murdered those who refused to leave and replaced them with Scots. So the heritage you are trying to claim was never yours in the first place.
    Go back to Scotland ye cross dressing blackguards. :p:D


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,872 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Irlbo wrote: »
    Its Ireland,not Eire or 'republic' of Ireland,not Southern Ireland',not Northern Ireland,Ireland,we dont have to go by governments and establishment to be told what to call our country,and in regards British Isles,who says they are the British isles,just because some long dead person said so

    So instead of what officialdom or some "long dead person" says, we should, instead, take the word of a guy who's postedjust over 100 times in an internet forum as bible...?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Saruman wrote: »
    Why is having Ireland as one of the "British Isles" misleading? We are a British isle!! We were a British isle before the english came to power on the Island they occupy now. Long before they invaded this Island.
    Geographicaly we are, always have been and always will be a British isle.

    We are NOT a British Isle. It implies ownership of the Island. The two Islands collectively are Britain & Ireland. British Isle is not only offensive, but outdated. Not once did I ever hear the term "British Isles" in Irish geography. It was always Ireland & Britain.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 184 ✭✭ibuprofen


    Saruman wrote: »
    Why is having Ireland as one of the "British Isles" misleading? We are a British isle!! We were a British isle before the english came to power on the Island they occupy now. Long before they invaded this Island.
    Geographicaly we are, always have been and always will be a British isle.[/quote


    NOt quite right ,Britian is one of the Islands, To use the phrase British Isles is incorrect as it denotes ownership, which may have been true a along time ago but not now. You're living in the past.

    It has no legal or official status in Ireland and that is unquestionable.


    <SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><FONT face=Arial size=2>The introduction of the Folens atlas follows a recent entry on the online encyclopaedia Wikipedia on the term "British Isles" which stated that the phrase could be "confusing and objectionable to some people, particularly in Ireland".


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 347 ✭✭Irlbo


    asdasd wrote: »
    I dont mind the Southern Irish thing. Two things bug me

    1) Most English people dont know anything about Potato famines, Penal laws, Cromwell etc. And if they do we should just get over it. The dogs on the street know that Ireland was neutral in WWII.
    2) It is fairly common to believe that we Irish are fighting amongst ourselves in Northern Ireland. It is part of the UK. This is rarer but when people ask me what is going on with the Irish problem, I am quick to wonder what is going on with the British problem, in the UK part of the Island i was born into. That can be very confusing to them.

    as in

    British chap : What is going on with you Irish in Northern Ireland?
    Asdasd: what is going on with you British in the UK up there?

    I realise this kind of talk will also piss off some northeners.

    So your of those fanticists that believe that the North of Ireland is actually a part of Britain?,even though it is an island and as a whole has a unique culture and identidy,it being part of the Uk is due to Britain forcably occupying the North,and hence christening it 'Northern Ireland' as part of UK,but just because they claim so,doesnt make it so


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 184 ✭✭ibuprofen


    It has no legal or official status in Ireland and that is unquestionable. AS shown below stated by Minister for Foreign affairs Dermot Ahern


    <SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><FONT face=Arial size=2>The introduction of the Folens atlas follows a recent entry on the online encyclopaedia Wikipedia on the term "British Isles" which stated that the phrase could be "confusing and objectionable to some people, particularly in Ireland".


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    I'm sure it's been mentioned in this thread already, but the most northern point of Ireland is infact in Donegal. So to refer to the 26 counties as southern Ireland is misleading.

    Ireland is Ireland. It has 32 counties.


This discussion has been closed.
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