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Why more wind farms & Pylons needed

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    #32
    BrenCooney
    Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭BrenCooney


    Anychance you could scan the doc and post it?


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    #33
    BrenCooney
    Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭BrenCooney


    The carbon caluclator you reference appears to be tied in with the disturbance of peatlands for the construction of wind turbines, not their operation.
    "Most fundamentally, however, Ministers do expect developers to follow best practice for minimising carbon emissions and disturbance of peat, and the carbon calculator represents a useful to tool in assessing proposed practices."

    This would be relevent to those proposed windfarms on virgin peatlands, of which there are not unfortunatly many left in this country. Even the proposed midlands wind farms are on bogs which are many decades gone!T he question of carbon negativity for wind turbines in this scanario does not come into it.


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    #34
    Greensleeves
    Registered Users Posts: 337 ✭✭Greensleeves


    @fclauson
    Here's a paper about quantifying CO2 savings from wind power that I saw referenced on another forum. I haven't read it so I apologise in advance if it is irrelevant/useless.

    http://joewheatley.net/how-much-co2-does-wind-power-save/


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    #35
    Greensleeves
    Registered Users Posts: 337 ✭✭Greensleeves


    Macha wrote: »
    Couldn't agree more. The UK just published its Community Energy Strategy two days ago. Ireland needs one:

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/community-energy-strategy

    I'm in the UK at the moment and there are so many great environmental community initiatives including community solar farms and wind farms. Of course we could replicate these in Ireland but for whatever reason only industrial wind energy is being promoted. Apart from generating money locally the UK projects help to motivate people to become more environmentally aware in general.


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    #36
    BrenCooney
    Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭BrenCooney


    Interesting read Greensleeves, and it possibly true on a yearly or even decade timeframe basis the economics are not great, but my point all the time is not the economics but environmental aspects. We have to put a break on fossil fuel usage on a massive scale, not to justify a more economical fuel usage.
    There was an article in the National Gorgraphic a few years ago which explained it very well. In order to just stabilise co2 levels we would have to carry out absolutely massive increases in renewables and similar reductions in fossil fuel usage, never mind bring about reductions.
    If I was to put a cost benefit analysis on the home improvements I carried out over the last 3 to 4 years it would indicate I was very stupid. I would never get a return. But that's not why I did it, not even for my children but for the hopeful grandchildren. Yes we would get reductions if all of the houses were retrofitted to best practice, but we would still have very large fossil fuel demand for industry, and transport, especially with our dispersed rural/urban population. That's where large scale renewables comes into play. If you can think of ideas for encouraging community renewable projects then don't hold back, we as a species and in this country need them badly.


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    #37
    fclauson
    Registered Users Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭fclauson


    BrenCooney wrote: »
    Anychance you could scan the doc and post it?

    published under new thread http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057137671#


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    #38
    BrenCooney
    Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭BrenCooney


    Many thanks for that.


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    #39
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Greensleeves wrote: »
    I'm in the UK at the moment and there are so many great environmental community initiatives including community solar farms and wind farms. Of course we could replicate these in Ireland but for whatever reason only industrial wind energy is being promoted. Apart from generating money locally the UK projects help to motivate people to become more environmentally aware in general.

    No doubt. In Germany, about 46% of renewables are community owned. In the UK, that number is 0.3%. Probably lower in Ireland.


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    #40
    Greensleeves
    Registered Users Posts: 337 ✭✭Greensleeves


    BrenCooney wrote: »
    Interesting read Greensleeves, and it possibly true on a yearly or even decade timeframe basis the economics are not great, but my point all the time is not the economics but environmental aspects. We have to put a break on fossil fuel usage on a massive scale, not to justify a more economical fuel usage.
    There was an article in the National Gorgraphic a few years ago which explained it very well. In order to just stabilise co2 levels we would have to carry out absolutely massive increases in renewables and similar reductions in fossil fuel usage, never mind bring about reductions.

    I think that is why James Lovelock and other environmentalists think that nuclear is the only option.


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    #41
    Greensleeves
    Registered Users Posts: 337 ✭✭Greensleeves


    Here's a nice community energy scheme from Brittany...

    "It all started in 1999 when a group of pig farmers hatched a project to build a methanisation plant to digest their output of slurry, using a fermentation technique that turns pig manure into methane gas. This prompted broader debate on energy. "This is one of the poorest parts of Brittany," says Aignel. "As a farmer I try to be as self-sufficient as possible and I was well aware cheap energy wouldn't last for ever."

    Wider economic concerns also played a part. The local economy depends heavily on a large abattoir, operated by Kermené, a subsidiary of the Leclerc supermarket chain, which employs 2,500 people. Local policymakers began to wonder whether there might be scope for diversifying into energy. In 2005 they visited Güssling, an Austrian village that had been working on energy self-sufficiency for 15 years. "We came home convinced that with waste, biomass resources, wind and sun we could diversify the economy alongside Kermené, enabling us to create some qualified jobs," says Michel Fablet, the leader of Le Gouray town council. Together the council and residents joined forces, assisted by Marc Théry, the former CEO of a large company, and decided to launch 10 energy projects, which have gradually taken shape."

    http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/may/05/renewable-energy-self-sufficient-local-brittany


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    #42
    BrenCooney
    Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭BrenCooney


    Greensleeves, its a shocking state of affairs that maybe nuclear will be the only answer left after people reject reducing energy consumption and block renewable energy projects. Look at the comments last night on 9 O'Clock news re wind turbine in Offaly, "unsightly, blot on landscape, etc".

    Other half comes from Switzerland/German Border area and her home village recently got district heating installed, banks of solar tubes for summer and wood chip in winter. Installed and run by a commercial "industrial" company, however it was the "Gemeinde/Local Council whcih organised it and which part financed it. Their Local Government is whats different and what we lack.

    Regarding digesters for pig slurry I am aware something similar was looked at in Cavan about 10 years ago, but due to a lack of leadership nothing ever came of it. I am aware in the past 2 to 3 years there was a number of planning attempts to install digesters for houshold waste but "environmentally aware" people objected in their hundreds, with comments of whats wrong with continuing to landfill it.

    Maybe we as a species have reached the end of our evolutionary ladder!!!


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    #43
    Greensleeves
    Registered Users Posts: 337 ✭✭Greensleeves


    BrenCooney wrote: »
    Maybe we as a species have reached the end of our evolutionary ladder!!!

    Don't be disheartened; we are an amazingly successful and adaptive species!


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    #44
    Jim Martin
    Registered Users Posts: 806 ✭✭✭Jim Martin


    BrenCooney wrote: »
    Greensleeves, its a shocking state of affairs that maybe nuclear will be the only answer left after people reject reducing energy consumption and block renewable energy projects. Look at the comments last night on 9 O'Clock news re wind turbine in Offaly, "unsightly, blot on landscape, etc".

    Other half comes from Switzerland/German Border area and her home village recently got district heating installed, banks of solar tubes for summer and wood chip in winter. Installed and run by a commercial "industrial" company, however it was the "Gemeinde/Local Council whcih organised it and which part financed it. Their Local Government is whats different and what we lack.

    Regarding digesters for pig slurry I am aware something similar was looked at in Cavan about 10 years ago, but due to a lack of leadership nothing ever came of it. I am aware in the past 2 to 3 years there was a number of planning attempts to install digesters for houshold waste but "environmentally aware" people objected in their hundreds, with comments of whats wrong with continuing to landfill it.

    Maybe we as a species have reached the end of our evolutionary ladder!!!

    Some years ago, An Taisce spearheaded a local community development project ('Kulana') to develop anaerobic digesters, but it seems to have died a death (unless anyone knows differently?)!


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    #45
    Greensleeves
    Registered Users Posts: 337 ✭✭Greensleeves


    Jim Martin wrote: »
    Some years ago, An Taisce spearheaded a local community development project ('Kulana') to develop anaerobic digesters, but it seems to have died a death (unless anyone knows differently?)!

    The only one I ever heard of was at the Camphill Community in Kilkenny; I often meant to vist it but never got around to it and I'm not sure how it has worked out. You'd think that with all the slurry Ireland would be a perfect place for anaerobic digestors but maybe it is more valuable as fertilizer.

    http://www.bioenarea.eu/practices/anaerobic-digestion-camphill-community


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    #46
    Jim Martin
    Registered Users Posts: 806 ✭✭✭Jim Martin


    I previously posted this on another thread some time ago:
    Jim Martin wrote: »
    This problem is probably going to get worse because, on the one hand, the EU have given out grants to farmers to build slatted sheds, they therefore have even more slurry to get rid of! On the other hand, they will be fining Ireland for polluting water. The system quite literally stinks!

    An Taisce have been working on a scheme (Kulyana) to get local communities involved in installing digesters to dispose of surplus slurry (& any other organic waste) - thus killing three birds with one stone - 1) getting rid of surplus organic waste 2) creating sustainable energy (methane gas) from the waste which can be used to generate electricity 3) the resultant waste left over can be used as dry fertiliser with no smell.


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    #47
    Jim Martin
    Registered Users Posts: 806 ✭✭✭Jim Martin


    The An Taisce 'Kulyana' project:

    http://www.clarecourier.ie/article.asp?id=1233


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    #48
    BrenCooney
    Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭BrenCooney


    There is one in wexford on a farm which is a large dairy and cheese producer. He uses slurry from the cows and green bin waste. Intresting setup, but not the easiest of things to run, especially as he has to get certain temperatures to ensure certain patogenic bacteria are killed off for the Dept of Agriculture to be happy the resulting slurry is spread on fields.


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    #49
    Impetus
    Registered Users Posts: 1,667 ✭✭✭Impetus


    Germany is planning to build an 800 km high tension electric power cable from Northern Germany to Bavaria, to carry wind generated electricity from the windy north, to the rest of the country, down to Bavaria. 60% of Germany’s electricity comes from renewable during the summer at present.

    Germany has developed the new T shaped pylons to reduce the EMF impact by 50%, and look nicer (not shown in this article). Within 40m of these new T shaped routes, there is almost zero EMF. Hopefully these will be used in this project.

    Meanwhile, Japan, a country that traditionally enjoyed a balence of payments surplus, has gone into deficit over the past few years because they did little or nothing to plan for renewables, while the switch off of many nuclear plants has turned Japan into the largest gas importer in the world.

    Ireland spends about 6 billion € a year in energy imports. This drain on the economy could be largely eliminated by updating the energy and transportation infrastructure. A long project that will have to start some time.

    More: http://www.dw.de/opponents-strike-back-at-planned-power-line/a-17410969

    http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/wirtschaftspolitik/oettinger-kritisiert-bayern-neue-leitungen-sind-notwendig-und-zwar-schnell-12787540.html


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    #50
    Oldtree
    Registered Users Posts: 8,104 ✭✭✭Oldtree


    What landscape value do the German's place on their scenery?


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    #51
    Impetus
    Registered Users Posts: 1,667 ✭✭✭Impetus


    Oldtree wrote: »
    What landscape value do the German's place on their scenery?

    I think this is why they came up with the T shaped pylons (aside from health concerns). They look elegant. Germany is a well planned country, as is France. Windmills, power lines, autobahnen etc are concentrated in corridors to keep the majority of the country free of these monsters. They have large belts of trees to insulate the driver on the motorway from the other stuff and to absorb motorway pollution (noise and PMx) given off by vehicles.

    Anyone who needs convincing should fly to a German airport, rent a car and head for the Autobahn. It is a very green country (aside from legacy industrial areas like Dusseldorf etc whose industrial base goes back for centuries.


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    #52
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Thread entitled "News: DE: “New power lines are needed, and fast”!" merged into this one.


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    #53
    Birdnuts
    Registered Users Posts: 9,632 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Oldtree wrote: »
    What landscape value do the German's place on their scenery?

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/wind-energy-encounters-problems-and-resistance-in-germany-a-910816.html#spRedirectedFrom=www&referrrer=

    Appears to be growing concerns among Germans about the blind rush into wind energy and its environmental/economic costs


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    #54
    Impetus
    Registered Users Posts: 1,667 ✭✭✭Impetus


    Birdnuts wrote: »
    http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/wind-energy-encounters-problems-and-resistance-in-germany-a-910816.html#spRedirectedFrom=www&referrrer=

    Appears to be growing concerns among Germans about the blind rush into wind energy and its environmental/economic costs

    1) I don't believe it is a "blind rush". Successive German governments realised that one has to "break eggs to make an omelet".

    2) German car manufacturers are aware that Tesla is making inroads into their car segment with electric cars. They know they will have to come up with better products. These will need lots of electricity and will be able to store electricity in times "when the wind is blowing" etc. Success in this area will improve the position of German car sales in the world and reduce energy imports into Germany, as well as lowering pollution - a win-win scenario.

    3) There is a lot of media hype everywhere. It gets an audience which drives advertising sales.

    4) More importantly, there is no need for Ireland to engage in a blind rush into wind or anything else. The initiative started off slowly and has developed as the country gets used to the practical impact of each iteration. If the process is well managed, one can overcome the obstacles with intelligent design, planning, and well thought through communication with the various public interest groups based on thorough research and analysis.


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    #55
    Greensleeves
    Registered Users Posts: 337 ✭✭Greensleeves


    Opposition to pylons in Germany is growing according to this piece in the Guardian.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/07/north-south-divide-threatens-germany-renewable-energy?CMP=twt_gu


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    #56
    Impetus
    Registered Users Posts: 1,667 ✭✭✭Impetus


    Greensleeves wrote: »
    Opposition to pylons in Germany is growing according to this piece in the Guardian.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/07/north-south-divide-threatens-germany-renewable-energy?CMP=twt_gu

    Anyone who has lived in Germany, even for a short period, will know, polite and all as most Germans are, it is a country of protest. Bavaria is the richest state in Germany, almost as rich as Switzerland, with high property values, and thus has an amplified "not in my backyard" lobby.

    However much of Bavaria's wealth comes from the automotive industry - eg BMW and Audi for example, not to mention Siemens. Both car manufacturers are watching Tesla whose stockmarket capitalisation has gone from 0 to 22.8 billion (as of last Friday), in a few years. BMW has been around for decades, and is only worth about 53 billion. Audi does not have a stockmarket listing of its own because it is part of VW AG. However VW is the largest spender on research and development in the world of any company - about 14 billion a year, and one suspects that much of this is on the electric car platform.

    There will be a big more from cars powered by middle eastern and North Sea oil over the next few decades to electricity, and it will take a long time to build out the power generation and grid infrastructure to meet this demand.


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