Ghosts/Apparitions/Spirits etc

Myrddin · 26-04-2012 1:42pm #1

Admittedly, I'd be fairly skeptical of the paranormal. To me, there's usually always an explanation for most things, with Occams Razor applying in most situations to me. That being said, I'm quite open to the belief that the paranormal can/does exist, I just feel simpler explanations are usually more applicable in most cases.

Anyway, a quick nuts n bolts question about ghosts/apparitions etc. If someone sees/encounters such a phenomenon, I immediately ask myself this:

If something appears & is visible, it must be subject to the laws of nature & gravity. Given that the Earth is revolving at roughly 1000 mph, & orbits the sun at 60,000 mph...anything that wasn't affected by gravity would simply be left at the point in space that it appears surely.

How can ghostly figures, spirits remain with us, given the enormous speeds we are traveling...all the while in some cases being not made of matter/passing through walls etc.

I probably explained is assways, but I'd be interested in hearing any input

Genghiz Cohen · 26-04-2012 3:45pm

EnterNow wrote: »

How can ghostly figures, spirits remain with us, given the enormous speeds we are traveling...all the while in some cases being not made of matter/passing through walls etc.

I probably explained is assways, but I'd be interested in hearing any input

They are locked to the quantum vibrational energies of the places where they died and move in and out of the spiritual 4th dimension at will.

But srsly, never heard anyone explain how that would work other than the building or surroundings have memories of the people, which doesn't really make any kind of sense to me.

Myrddin · 26-04-2012 3:50pm

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

They are locked to the quantum vibrational energies of the places where they died

But how do you strictly define a 'place'. In the broader sense, they died at a quantum place in a three dimensional universe. That 'place' or set of co-ordinates doesn't move or follow the Earth's movement.

I know what you mean re attachment, but in the bigger picture, if you die at a defined place...you should remain at that place...regardless of where the Earth is in its orbit, you get me?

kylith · 26-04-2012 11:27pm

So they'd only be visible for a couple of minutes each year as the earth passes that point in space? Unless they're tied to a house or some rocks rather than a point in space.

Here's one: if they died during the medieval period and are locked to a place why aren't only their torsos and heads above ground, since ground level was lower back then?

krd · 27-04-2012 12:46am

kylith wrote: »

So they'd only be visible for a couple of minutes each year as the earth passes that point in space? Unless they're tied to a house or some rocks rather than a point in space.

Here's one: if they died during the medieval period and are locked to a place why aren't only their torsos and heads above ground, since ground level was lower back then?

No. Not only is the Earth orbiting the sun, our solar system is orbiting the centre of the Milky Way (our galaxy). And the Milky way is moving too - very fast.

The way the stellar bodies are moving through space, the chances of crossing the same space twice, are virtually zilch.

Myrddin · 27-04-2012 9:03am

krd wrote: »

No. Not only is the Earth orbiting the sun, our solar system is orbiting the centre of the Milky Way (our galaxy). And the Milky way is moving too - very fast.

The way the stellar bodies are moving through space, the chances of crossing the same space twice, are virtually zilch.

Yeah, it takes a phenomenally long time to do a galactic orbit, & even then, the galaxies are moving/space expanding so your never truly in the same 'place' twice.

kylith · 27-04-2012 12:41pm

krd wrote: »

No. Not only is the Earth orbiting the sun, our solar system is orbiting the centre of the Milky Way (our galaxy). And the Milky way is moving too - very fast.

The way the stellar bodies are moving through space, the chances of crossing the same space twice, are virtually zilch.

Consarn it, I forgot about the rotation of the galaxy. You're right; they'd be haunting a space in the middle of, well, space, just waiting for another planet to pass through so they could put the willies up some aliens.

Myrddin · 27-04-2012 1:14pm

kylith wrote: »

Consarn it, I forgot about the rotation of the galaxy. You're right; they'd be haunting a space in the middle of, well, space, just waiting for another planet to pass through so they could put the willies up some aliens.

Seemingly proving if the phenomenon exists, ghosts/spirits are not tied to 'place' per se, but rather an object - with place strictly being defined as a set of co-ordinates. We're never in the same co-ordinates twice, so either ghosts are affected by gravity, or else they're tied to matter of some kind. Would that be rational enough?

Oryx · 27-04-2012 1:38pm

Here's one: if they died during the medieval period and are locked to a place why aren't only their torsos and heads above ground, since ground level was lower back then?

I often wondered (when ghosts are portrayed in films and such) how they can walk happily along floors yet go right through walls.

Myrddin · 27-04-2012 1:42pm

Oryx wrote: »

I often wondered (when ghosts are portrayed in films and such) how they can walk happily along floors yet go right through walls.

Yeah same here...it seems to contradict itself. But then you hear that maybe ghosts are 'echoes' of times past, & maybe your seeing a replay of an event that happened before say of a person walking along a floor & through a wall...whereas the wall may not have been originally there.

This whole thing just came about when I was thinking of spirits that can interact say, ghosts/poltergeists/demons. How are they here if they're not affected by gravity?

Oryx · 27-04-2012 1:57pm

EnterNow wrote: »

Yeah same here...it seems to contradict itself. But then you hear that maybe ghosts are 'echoes' of times past, & maybe your seeing a replay of an event that happened before say of a person walking along a floor & through a wall...whereas the wall may not have been originally there.

This whole thing just came about when I was thinking of spirits that can interact say, ghosts/poltergeists/demons. How are they here if they're not affected by gravity?

Ah, big presumption to make, to presume they are not affected by gravity or some other ghostly physical limitation!

Myrddin · 27-04-2012 2:32pm

Oryx wrote: »

Ah, big presumption to make, to presume they are not affected by gravity or some other ghostly physical limitation!

I suppose it's a big assumption alright. But gravity being by far the weakest force, if ghosts are indeed energy rather than matter, they arn't going to be affected by it.

If there is some other ghostly form of limitation, what could it be is what I'm asking originally I suppose

Oryx · 27-04-2012 2:44pm

What if ghosts were nothing but 'thought' (I know all thought is a product of electrical activity in our brain but they still argue about the 'ghost in the machine') in whatever form it would need to take to exist outside of a brain.

Then the limits would be thought or electrical based rather than physical. As in when we see them, it is a hallucination of sorts caused by their presence in our thoughts/synapses.

*this is completely off the cuff and ill thought out so cut me some slack for not wording it well. Its just another crackpot theory among so many, cos we just dont know.

Myrddin · 27-04-2012 2:48pm

Oryx wrote: »

What if ghosts were nothing but 'thought' (I know all thought is a product of electrical activity in our brain but they still argue about the 'ghost in the machine') in whatever form it would need to take to exist outside of a brain.
Then the limits would be thought or electrical based rather than physical. As in when we see them, it is a hallucination of sorts caused by their presence in our thoughts/synapses.

*this is completely off the cuff and ill thought out so cut me some slack for not wording it well. Its just another crackpot theory among so many, cos we just dont know.

To be honest, if I were to theorize what ghosts/spirits are...that's exactly the line I'd be following. The human mind is a far more powerful device than we give credit to, & for me, could aid to a simpler explanation of certain things that would be considered paranormal.

steddyeddy · 02-05-2012 2:20pm

Well theres fantastic progresssion in our understanding of the effects of infrasound on human and animals/ Funnily enough the effects include auditory and visual hallucinations, a feeling of dread, a cold feeling and a feeling of another presence in the room. Also sources of infrasound have been found at some sites of reported hauntings. This for me goes a long way towards explaining hauntings but I am open to discussion on the matter and to being proved wrong.

maccored · 02-05-2012 2:49pm

infrasound generally affects the senses, but it doesnt say explain evps or various other bits and bobs. a mixture of infrasound and environmental radiation could explain the vast majority of 'paranormal' things. Not all of it though.

krd · 03-05-2012 2:45am

EnterNow wrote: »

I suppose it's a big assumption alright. But gravity being by far the weakest force, if ghosts are indeed energy rather than matter, they arn't going to be affected by it.

What do you mean by energy?

In science energy is a property mass has. There isn't energy that's free in itself. If you burn a lump of coal, the chemical bonds holding the coal together will break. When they break they release that energy in the form of heat and light.

Gravity is the weakest of the forces. But it's not that weak. It's what's stopping you from flying into outer space. If you jumped off the top of a building, you'd find it's not really that weak at all.

Gravity can bend light. In a black hole, the gravity is so strong it stops all light from leaving it.

Say for the sake of argument, if the soul left the body as a form of concious electricity, that had some way of sticking together. If would hang in the air, near the body, until it decided to go somewhere else. It wouldn't fly off into outer space.

I'm not saying that does happen. That might be what happens.

Myrddin · 03-05-2012 9:53am

krd wrote: »

What do you mean by energy?

In science energy is a property mass has. There isn't energy that's free in itself. If you burn a lump of coal, the chemical bonds holding the coal together will break. When they break they release that energy in the form of heat and light.

I mean energy as in a waveform energy like light etc, not necessarily matter...though I know light has properties of being matter & being a waveform at the same time. I'm not really sure, but it's hardly likely ghosts & apparitions are actually matter is it?

As you said yourself, energy is converted from one form to another. So the chemical energy stored in coal, is released as heat/light when it's burned. Whats the conversion process when a ghost appears? IS the energy of their form being created out of nothing, violating all known laws of physics? Or is there a conversion happening on a level we simply arn't aware of?

Gravity is the weakest of the forces. But it's not that weak. It's what's stopping you from flying into outer space. If you jumped off the top of a building, you'd find it's not really that weak at all.

Gravity can bend light. In a black hole, the gravity is so strong it stops all light from leaving it.

Yet for all of Earth's gravitational power, it can be beaten by a simple childs magnet. I'm not saying gravity is weak by any means, but when it comes to the known forces, it is by far the weakest.

Say for the sake of argument, if the soul left the body as a form of concious electricity, that had some way of sticking together. If would hang in the air, near the body, until it decided to go somewhere else. It wouldn't fly off into outer space.

I'm not saying that does happen. That might be what happens.

How do you know though? Again, looking at light, that's not defeated by gravity at all & if shone towards the sky it will happily travel upwards without hindrance from gravity. Light can be bent/curved etc, but again as you mention, it takes an extremely powerful gravitation force to do so. It does not happen on Earth via its gravity.

The point of all this? If ghosts are indeed mass/matter, where is the energy coming from? Why can they seemingly pass through solid objects? How can they then interact with other objects?

If they are a form of zero-mass energy, how are they affected by gravity & stay in one place?

gillad · 03-05-2012 1:09pm

Ghosts/Apparitions/Spirits etc are a form of conscious energy,the very same energy that you use to think and dream.Your thoughts and dreams are not affected by gravity or time so spirits ect..are not affected either.
Most of us cannot control our dreams and we all have random thoughts that we cant control.We are not intelligent enough yet to have full control over our consciousness so untill we have full control,most of us(especially the logical minds)will not believe in spirits or anything unless it can be proven.
The proof is in your own conscious mind and if you want to find it you will.

All thought is energy and energy cannot be destroyed so every thought and dream that you`v ever had is out there somewhere and it will have a positive or negative effect(it depends on what your thought is) on whats around you plants/animals/other human consciousness.These thoughts/energies and spirits are what influence the conscious thoughts and behaviour of the everything on this planet.It is only when we can understand and control these energies that we can truly understand and control ourselves.
When someone sees a ghost,this energy is influencing their thoughts and it is having a positive or negative effect on that person.Some people get positive results from these energies/spirits(people who go to mediums and psychics often come out with hope and clarity).Some people are scared after an encounter and it affects them in a negative way but it also opens up their mind to what is really there so in reality a ghostly encounter is a positve thing.

Myrddin · 03-05-2012 1:43pm

gillad wrote: »

Ghosts/Apparitions/Spirits etc are a form of conscious energy,the very same energy that you use to think and dream.Your thoughts and dreams are not affected by gravity or time so spirits ect..are not affected either.
Most of us cannot control our dreams and we all have random thoughts that we cant control.We are not intelligent enough yet to have full control over our consciousness so untill we have full control,most of us(especially the logical minds)will not believe in spirits or anything unless it can be proven.
The proof is in your own conscious mind and if you want to find it you will.

All thought is energy and energy cannot be destroyed so every thought and dream that you`v ever had is out there somewhere and it will have a positive or negative effect(it depends on what your thought is) on whats around you plants/animals/other human consciousness.These thoughts/energies and spirits are what influence the conscious thoughts and behaviour of the everything on this planet.It is only when we can understand and control these energies that we can truly understand and control ourselves.
When someone sees a ghost,this energy is influencing their thoughts and it is having a positive or negative effect on that person.Some people get positive results from these energies/spirits(people who go to mediums and psychics often come out with hope and clarity).Some people are scared after an encounter and it affects them in a negative way but it also opens up their mind to what is really there so in reality a ghostly encounter is a positve thing.

Very interesting take on it, cheers

But to again go back to our physical laws, in that energy cannot be created or destroyed, merely changed from one form to another...our thoughts and dreams are 'merely' chemical interactions within our brains, the energy of which comes from the sustenance we eat everyday ultimately.

If ghosts/entities/spirits etc are conscious form of energy, what process is going on that allows them to even exist? Where is the energy transformation, & what is it from and to? It also doesn't explain why an energy that isn't affected by gravity as you say, is able to really be here as a static form...

krd · 03-05-2012 7:50pm

gillad wrote: »

Ghosts/Apparitions/Spirits etc are a form of conscious energy,the very same energy that you use to think and dream.Your thoughts and dreams are not affected by gravity or time so spirits ect..are not affected either.

Now you're getting very sciencey. Your claiming something called conscious energy exists, and that it is not effected by time or gravity. How do you know it's not effected by time or gravity? Have you any scientific proof that it's not effected by time or gravity?

Most of us cannot control our dreams and we all have random thoughts that we cant control.We are not intelligent enough yet to have full control over our consciousness so untill we have full control,most of us(especially the logical minds)will not believe in spirits or anything unless it can be proven.
The proof is in your own conscious mind and if you want to find it you will.

You mean, if I imagine something it's real? Faeries at the bottom of the garden, Jesus Christ, Santa Claus, they're all real if I just use my "conscious mind" and imagine I'm having a conversation with them.

All thought is energy and energy cannot be destroyed so every thought and dream that you`v ever had is out there somewhere and it will have a positive or negative effect(it depends on what your thought is)

The memory in your computer, and the processor, work by using energy. The ones and zeros are powered by electricity. That energy can neither be created or destroyed. But it does not mean that whatever you've ever used your computer for, somewhere all that information still exists. Because energy can neither be created or destroyed.

The brain works by chemistry and electrical signals. "thought" is not an energy. You can use energy(light) to project a picture onto a wall - but it does not mean the picture is energy. And that the picture can be converted into another form of energy. The energy that creates the picture is not lost - it goes somewhere else, but when you turn off the projector, the picture vanishes, and is gone. And that is what science has to say about the human brain - once it's switched off, the person is gone forever. The energy is still there - you could burn the brain if you want

You can believe in ghosts, spirits or whatever you like but you cannot use the First law of thermodynamics, to begin a justification for their existence.

I've met plenty of evil spirits in my life. But they have all been human. And a lot of them went to mass too.

gillad · 03-05-2012 11:56pm

krd wrote: »

Now you're getting very sciencey. Your claiming something called conscious energy exists, and that it is not effected by time or gravity. How do you know it's not effected by time or gravity? Have you any scientific proof that it's not effected by time or gravity?

You mean, if I imagine something it's real? Faeries at the bottom of the garden, Jesus Christ, Santa Claus, they're all real if I just use my "conscious mind" and imagine I'm having a conversation with them.

The memory in your computer, and the processor, work by using energy. The ones and zeros are powered by electricity. That energy can neither be created or destroyed. But it does not mean that whatever you've ever used your computer for, somewhere all that information still exists. Because energy can neither be created or destroyed.

The brain works by chemistry and electrical signals. "thought" is not an energy. You can use energy(light) to project a picture onto a wall - but it does not mean the picture is energy. And that the picture can be converted into another form of energy. The energy that creates the picture is not lost - it goes somewhere else, but when you turn off the projector, the picture vanishes, and is gone. And that is what science has to say about the human brain - once it's switched off, the person is gone forever. The energy is still there - you could burn the brain if you want

You can believe in ghosts, spirits or whatever you like but you cannot use the First law of thermodynamics, to begin a justification for their existence.

I've met plenty of evil spirits in my life. But they have all been human. And a lot of them went to mass too.

You have a logical and sensible view on this subject and nobody will convince you to change your view unless they provide you with proof(but nobody is going to give you proof).I was the same as you a few months ago but i experienced some paranormal stuff and i had to change my view to make sense of it and now everything makes sense.You wont understand or even want to understand until you experience something paranormal for yourself and i really hope you do because it is a real eye opener and it makes life much more interesting.There is no fear of growing old or death anymore and thats a great way to be.:):):)

Genghiz Cohen · 04-05-2012 2:29pm

gillad wrote: »

You wont understand or even want to understand until you experience something paranormal for yourself and i really hope you do because it is a real eye opener and it makes life much more interesting.There is no fear of growing old or death anymore and thats a great way to be.:):):)

No, that is simply not the way to go about anything.
I know the earth is a spherical shape, not because I have seen it for myself, but because someone was able to present convincing and reasonable arguments that it is so.
If you cannot present convincing and reasonable arguments for your belief then your belief may not be convincing or reasonable.

On another note, have you fully thought out all the baggage that comes with believing in some sort of spiritual experience occurred? Stuff like what is listed above.

maccored · 04-05-2012 2:34pm

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

If you cannot present convincing and reasonable arguments for your belief then your belief may not be convincing or reasonable.

Who cares? Im sure the person you are quoting isnt too worried about what others think of the paranormal. If you havent had a paranormal experience, then you just havent had a paranormal experience. Hard luck. And the experience isnt reasonable because someone isnt convinced? Thats cobblers ... its as reasonable to the person who experienced it regardless of what anyone thinks.

Genghiz Cohen · 04-05-2012 3:17pm

maccored wrote: »

Who cares? Im sure the person you are quoting isnt too worried about what others think of the paranormal. If you havent had a paranormal experience, then you just havent had a paranormal experience. Hard luck. And the experience isnt reasonable because someone isnt convinced? Thats cobblers ... its as reasonable to the person who experienced it regardless of what anyone thinks.

I didn't say that.

And, who cares?
I do hope you take a better approach than that when you are trying to figure out why people feel chills in an old rundown house.

maccored · 04-05-2012 3:29pm

when you're dealing with people who have experienced these things, they generally dont say things like "If you cannot present convincing and reasonable arguments for your belief then your belief may not be convincing or reasonable."

And yes you did indeed.

gillad · 04-05-2012 4:03pm

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

No, that is simply not the way to go about anything.
I know the earth is a spherical shape, not because I have seen it for myself, but because someone was able to present convincing and reasonable arguments that it is so.
If you cannot present convincing and reasonable arguments for your belief then your belief may not be convincing or reasonable.

On another note, have you fully thought out all the baggage that comes with believing in some sort of spiritual experience occurred? Stuff like what is listed above.

People believed that the earth was flat until it was proven.That doesnt mean that the earth WAS flat until it was proven,it was always round so people changed their view when it was proven.When science starts to understand the conscious and unconscious mind,thats when you will start to get proof.It could be 10/20 years or more before that happens but it will happen and it will change the world for the better.

I have never seen a ghost.I have witnessed the power of the conscious and subconscious mind.My own mind(in training now) and two other people iv met who have very powerful minds.

What baggage are you talking about?

Genghiz Cohen · 04-05-2012 4:25pm

maccored wrote: »

when you're dealing with people who have experienced these things, they generally dont say things like "If you cannot present convincing and reasonable arguments for your belief then your belief may not be convincing or reasonable."

And yes you did indeed.

"may"

EDIT:

And the experience isnt reasonable because someone isnt convinced?

To expand;
People are not convinced that the universe is older than 10,000 years. There are plenty of reasonable arguments to say it is.
So there is something that is reasonable even though someone is not convinced of it.

Genghiz Cohen · 04-05-2012 4:31pm

gillad wrote: »

What baggage are you talking about?

The kind of stuff like; if ghosts exist, then what are they made of, are they conscious, if so what is consciousness. Is there another world, how do we detect it, it obviously has an effect on this world so we should be able to.

There are at least 9000 questions for spirits alone, never mine telekinesis, energy healing, homeopathy, remote viewing and all sorts of other paranormal phenomenon.
If you accept even one, there are a lot of things that need explaining.

gillad · 04-05-2012 4:55pm

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

The kind of stuff like; if ghosts exist, then what are they made of, are they conscious, if so what is consciousness. Is there another world, how do we detect it, it obviously has an effect on this world so we should be able to.

There are at least 9000 questions for spirits alone, never mine telekinesis, energy healing, homeopathy, remote viewing and all sorts of other paranormal phenomenon.
If you accept even one, there are a lot of things that need explaining.

Thats not what id call baggage,its all very interesting stuff and the conscious energy of yourself and everything else that ever lived on this planet is responsible for everything you mentioned above.
Dont ask me for proof because you know i dont have any for you.I`m not trying to convince you of anything,i`m letting you know my view and im hoping a small bit will sink into your subconscious and you may have a "EUREKA" moment at some stage in your life.

Genghiz Cohen · 04-05-2012 6:17pm

gillad wrote: »

Thats not what id call baggage,its all very interesting stuff and the conscious energy of yourself and everything else that ever lived on this planet is responsible for everything you mentioned above.
Dont ask me for proof because you know i dont have any for you.I`m not trying to convince you of anything,

As a scientifically minded person, I demand some kind of evidence! :pac:
Even a story of what happened, if that's OK.
If you don't want feedback just say so, but I am very interested to hear your experience.

gillad wrote: »

i`m letting you know my view and im hoping a small bit will sink into your subconscious and you may have a "EUREKA" moment at some stage in your life.

That came a across as kinda condecending you know.

(That means it sounded like you were talking down to me :P)

Ghosts/Apparitions/Spirits etc

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