Teeth - Could this be Something/Nothing

Hammerman · 17-03-2014 10:51pm #1

This is not something I know anything about but I found this a few days ago.
I am trying to rule it out, looking at images of animal teeth etc but its proving quite difficult. If anyone has any knowledge in this area, as I have to admit I'm clueless, if they think its worth a further look can you please let me know.
There is an image attached..
Thanks..

Tordelback · 18-03-2014 12:23am

Reckon those are adult pig molars, probably lower jaw M2 and M3? The thickness of the mandible suggests it too. Any context?

Hammerman · 18-03-2014 11:10am

Any chance it the extinct pig? Just where it was found was not farm land. There were a lot of bones buried, and a recent storm had moved the ground. I will be back in a few weeks and will see if I can make that fit. There were some quite large teeth with the bones..
Thanks for the reply

Tordelback · 19-03-2014 9:44pm

That's an interesting question, assuming it is pig (hard to be sure from a photo). There's a big debate about whether pigs are native to Ireland at all, with the smart money currently being on the deliberate introduction of wild pigs in the Mesolithic sometime after 8000BC, with maybe a shift to the domestic variety actually taking place in the Mesolithic or very early in the Neolithic. So in that sense there aren't really any 'extinct' species of pig in Ireland, since even wild boar would have been a human introduction, and they're back again now.

I have to say that whenever I think about the very first settlers of Ireland, I marvel at what they faced: no pigs, no deer, none of the large land mammals that the rest of Europe - and thus those first nutters themselves - were used to relying on. Really just hares, foxes, badgers, martens and wolves - nothing that would make a decent trail through the forest, or a decent skin for a tent, and feck all eating. It's no wonder they stuck to the coasts, rivers and lakes.

robp · 19-03-2014 10:01pm

Tordelback wrote: »

That's an interesting question, assuming it is pig (hard to be sure from a photo). There's a big debate about whether pigs are native to Ireland at all, with the smart money currently being on the deliberate introduction of wild pigs in the Mesolithic sometime after 8000BC, with maybe a shift to the domestic variety actually taking place in the Mesolithic or very early in the Neolithic. So in that sense there aren't really any 'extinct' species of pig in Ireland, since even wild boar would have been a human introduction, and they're back again now.

Its an extinct pig as the indigenous breed of pig lineage that existed here until the 19th cen is very much dead. Maybe there is more then one extinct breed if you consider the Mesolithic wild pig and the indigenous domestic pig.

Tordelback · 19-03-2014 10:04pm

robp wrote: »

Its an extinct pig as the indigenous breed of pig lineage that existed here until the 19th cen is very much dead. .

Very good point! Although I question the use of the term 'indigenous', if all pigs are (as seems likely) deliberately introduced, and the distinction between 'breed' and 'species' is a tricky if important one. But you'd be in good company using those terms to refer to things like the famous Greyhound Pig, so don't mind me.

robp · 19-03-2014 10:21pm

Tordelback wrote: »

Very good point! Although I question the use of the term 'indigenous', if all pigs are (as seems likely) deliberately introduced, and the distinction between 'breed' and 'species' is a tricky if important one. But you'd be in good company using those terms to refer to things like the famous Greyhound Pig, so don't mind me.

Sure. I mean in the same way the kerry cow is an indigenous breed of cow. I think also that even if pigs were introduced in the Mesolithic I think they would have been introduced once more in the Neolithic.

Cailleachdubh · 20-03-2014 9:58pm

They look like pig teeth alright. Pigs are omnivores like humans, so their teeth can look like big, warped human teeth - unlike ruminant teeth, which are quite different in morphology.

baaba maal · 23-03-2014 7:54pm

Tordelback wrote: »

That's an interesting question, assuming it is pig (hard to be sure from a photo). There's a big debate about whether pigs are native to Ireland at all, with the smart money currently being on the deliberate introduction of wild pigs in the Mesolithic sometime after 8000BC, with maybe a shift to the domestic variety actually taking place in the Mesolithic or very early in the Neolithic. So in that sense there aren't really any 'extinct' species of pig in Ireland, since even wild boar would have been a human introduction, and they're back again now.

I have to say that whenever I think about the very first settlers of Ireland, I marvel at what they faced: no pigs, no deer, none of the large land mammals that the rest of Europe - and thus those first nutters themselves - were used to relying on. Really just hares, foxes, badgers, martens and wolves - nothing that would make a decent trail through the forest, or a decent skin for a tent, and feck all eating. It's no wonder they stuck to the coasts, rivers and lakes.

Wow- I had no idea that there were no deer in Ireland at that time- were there not red deer (as in the Killarney bloodline)?

ezra_pound · 23-03-2014 9:09pm

baaba maal wrote: »

Wow- I had no idea that there were no deer in Ireland at that time- were there not red deer (as in the Killarney bloodline)?

Roe deer are indigenous. Are they not?

robp · 23-03-2014 10:36pm

ezra_pound wrote: »

Roe deer are indigenous. Are they not?

Roe deer are not native and not present in Ireland to my knowledge.

Aelfric · 25-03-2014 9:27am

"Really just hares, foxes, badgers, martens and wolves..."

Ok, so what you're saying is that foxes and wolves competed for the hares? Or is there something I'm missing? Perhaps the first settlers fed them porridge, as well as nuts, berries and roots, and kept them as pets?

Sorry, I have a habit of taking the mick.

There is actual real physical evidence for bears, wolves and giant deer in Irish prehistory, and you seem to have conveniently left out the Aurochs, although I don't know when that is supposed to have come into Ireland. You can't tell me bears were introduced, and bears cannot live on fish and honey alone. With at least 3 large carnivorous predators, there must have been some other land mammal capable of providing enough sustenance for them.

Your logic, sir, is flawed.

Aelfric · 25-03-2014 9:31am

http://www.wilddeerireland.com/reddeer.html

robp · 25-03-2014 10:16am

Aelfric wrote: »

"Really just hares, foxes, badgers, martens and wolves..."

There certainly were otters, stoats and bears too, probably lynx and maybe wild cats and squirrel?

Aelfric wrote: »

There is actual real physical evidence for bears, wolves and giant deer in Irish prehistory, and you seem to have conveniently left out the Aurochs, although I don't know when that is supposed to have come into Ireland. You can't tell me bears were introduced, and bears cannot live on fish and honey alone. With at least 3 large carnivorous predators, there must have been some other land mammal capable of providing enough sustenance for them.

Your logic, sir, is flawed.

The Giant deer were extinct by this period. I don't think there is any evidence of aurochs at this time, maybe sometime before.

Brown bears can eat a lot of plants. Some bears eat mostly plants. I think they would be happy with the plant life and seasonal salmon runs. On the other hand wolves and lynx are pretty carnivorous. Its hard to explain their diet.

The thing is, pretty much any animal could be introduced if they imported docile cubs. We really need another method to check like ancient DNA.

Tordelback · 26-03-2014 5:00pm

Yes indeed, but I wasn't aiming to produce an exhaustive list of mammals, just pondering the general scale of thing available to eat, in contrast with the sort of stuff that people normally hunt and trap in the bulk of Mesolithic Europe. Good luck with a diet of stoat, lynx and bear!

Like Robp says, brown bears, known in Ireland from about 12,000BC, are not carnivores and actually eat almost anything, hence they make excellent early post-Glacial colonists - the limited meat component of their diet can be made up of rodents,birds and fish: so much like our Mesolithic colonists themselves.

I wasn't going for logic either, I was listing species we have direct evidence for - although I'm quite happy to acknowledge that this is an area where ideas change all the time. That's what makes it so exciting.

But definitely no aurochs.

Teeth - Could this be Something/Nothing

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