Minister Shatter and Commissioner Callinan should both resign in disgrace

droidus · 13-03-2014 1:44pm

Its simple. Saying 'they did not find any corruption' implies they looked for individual examples of corruption. They didnt, and couldnt if they had wanted to.

Certain people in the media and Dail (and other places) are spinning this to suggest that there was no corruption, when you would have to be blind and deaf not to come to the conclusion that there was. Its almost as if the terms of the investigation were somehow planned to allow for this rhetorical fig leaf.

What this investigation has found is that there were no systems in place to prevent abuse of 'discretion' with regard to penalty points. The incidents it points to as examples imply abuse of power and corruption in the force.

Godge · 13-03-2014 1:49pm

droidus wrote: »

Its simple. Saying 'they did not find any corruption' implies they looked for individual examples of corruption. They didnt, and couldnt if they had wanted to.

Certain people in the media and Dail (and other places) are spinning this to suggest that there was no corruption, when you would have to be blind and deaf not to come to the conclusion that there was. Its almost as if the terms of the investigation were somehow planned to allow for this rhetorical fig leaf.

What this investigation has found is that there were no systems in place to prevent abuse of 'discretion' with regard to penalty points. The incidents it points to as examples imply abuse of power and corruption in the force.

If that is the case GSOC should find the corruption.

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/PR14000075

"GSOC
Following on additional allegations being made with regard to the operation of the Fixed Charge Penalty System, the Minister on 28 January 2014 referred all allegations in relation to the cancellation of fixed charge notices and the circumstances surrounding them to GSOC."

An accurate factual statement would say that allegations of corruption remain unproven and we await the GSOC report.

Sierra Oscar · 13-03-2014 1:55pm

Godge wrote: »

I never said it ruled out corruption, I said it didn't find any corruption in response to those who said it did. There is a difference.

OK, well looking back at my posts perhaps they come across as being abrasive against you but that's not the intention. As you say, there is a huge difference.

I am just pointing out that people shouldn't be using the report to discuss corruption at all considering it is outside of the remit of the inspectorate. That is for others to decide. You cannot rule out or say that corruption did occur based on the report. In saying that, it is interesting that the inspectorate let it slip that he believes the investigations into corruption will find that corrupt acts occurred. Slip of the tongue maybe?

Inspectorate wrote:

I know that there are a couple of investigations at the minute that the Minister has got going now that will probably look into that and find it.

droidus · 13-03-2014 2:07pm

Godge wrote: »

If that is the case GSOC should find the corruption.

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/PR14000075

"GSOC
Following on additional allegations being made with regard to the operation of the Fixed Charge Penalty System, the Minister on 28 January 2014 referred all allegations in relation to the cancellation of fixed charge notices and the circumstances surrounding them to GSOC."

An accurate factual statement would say that allegations of corruption remain unproven and we await the GSOC report.

Sure, because GSOC are immune to political pressure, have full access to all Gardai files and systems, have powers to interview and compel testimony from gardai, have the full support and cooperation of the Gardai commissioner and the Minister for Justice and can work safe in the knowledge that their investigations are completely confidential.

norrie rugger · 13-03-2014 2:10pm

And still not a sign of the people that bugged GSOC huh?

gizmo555 · 13-03-2014 2:20pm

Godge wrote: »

Which is it? Gizmo says the report found there was corruption using one definition. When I show him that the report doesn't say that, he moves the goalposts to another definition. That gets me in trouble with you because I state the fact that the report didn't find any corruption.

I'm not moving the goalposts, merely pointing out that the definition of corruption is much broader than you, the Minster and the Commissioner are willing to admit.

If anything, you're trying to squeeze the goalposts together to stop anything that doesn't suit your argument getting between them.

Here's a 3rd definition of corruption, this time from an official Irish government website, www.anticorruption.ie:

"Corruption is an abuse of a position of trust in order to gain an undue advantage."

Beyond any shadow of a doubt the abuse of positions of trust to gain undue advantage - i.e., "corruption" as defined by the Irish government - has occurred in the penalty points system.

Godge · 13-03-2014 3:30pm

gizmo555 wrote: »

I'm not moving the goalposts, merely pointing out that the definition of corruption is much broader than you, the Minster and the Commissioner are willing to admit.

If anything, you're trying to squeeze the goalposts together to stop anything that doesn't suit your argument getting between them.

Here's a 3rd definition of corruption, this time from an official Irish government website, www.anticorruption.ie:

"Corruption is an abuse of a position of trust in order to gain an undue advantage."

Beyond any shadow of a doubt the abuse of positions of trust to gain undue advantage - i.e., "corruption" as defined by the Irish government - has occurred in the penalty points system.

Again what undue advantage accrues to a garda who cancels the penalty points of a sports personality?

Yes, there has been abuse of a position but the second part is again missing.

Floppybits · 13-03-2014 3:37pm

If wiping out penalty points is not corrupt or seen as nothing wrong with it, then why did the Commissioner, AGS and Shatter try to bury this?

The only reason this was ever brought to the publics attention was because the Whistleblowers were stonewalled by the Commissioner and AGS, when they followed the whistleblowing process to the letter, it was only as a last resort they used the part of legislation where they told members of the Dail, which they were perfectly within their right to do.

Shatter and Callinan have no else to blame but themselves for the mess they made of this. If they had of treated the whistle blower complaints with seriousness that they should have been then this would not have been a problem. Instead they did the irish thing and that was to try bury this and bury the whistle blowers. The pair of them are a disgrace simple as that.

As for whether a guard writing of penalty points for their mates or celebrites being corrupt, to me it is, it is the same as a councillor accepting a bribe to rezone land, we dont know what these guards got for writing off the penalty points and knowing the culture in this country you can be sure the Gardai werent writing on points as a act of Kindness.

norrie rugger · 13-03-2014 3:44pm

Remember when Callinan restricted the whistleblowers access to computers, to supervised and under appointment?
Really treated well there

aloyisious · 13-03-2014 3:46pm

Another definition of corruption, using corrupting as the search-word, ends in the reply: cor·rupt (kə-rŭpt′)
adj.
1. Marked by immorality and perversion; depraved.
2. Venal; dishonest: a corrupt mayor.
3. Containing errors or alterations, as a text: a corrupt translation.
4. Archaic Tainted; putrid.
v. cor·rupt·ed, cor·rupt·ing, cor·rupts
v.tr.
1. To destroy or subvert the honesty or integrity of.
2. To ruin morally; pervert.
3. To taint; contaminate.
4. To cause to become rotten; spoil.
5. To change the original form of (a text, for example).
6. Computer Science To damage (data) in a file or on a disk.

Source.... https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CFYQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thefreedictionary.com%2Fcorrupting&ei=dMQhU9GFFOaL7Aae_oDQBQ&usg=AFQjCNFzcJ0yKN9wuCSXAOMFAR0cBRiwbw&sig2=BrDzlv3uSx0RSljvk674-w&bvm=bv.62922401,d.ZGU

Banjo String · 13-03-2014 3:55pm

norrie rugger wrote: »

Remember when Callinan restricted the whistleblowers access to computers, to supervised and under appointment?
Really treated well there

Maurice McCabe is still restricted from using it. Heard it being discussed on newstalk earlier.

droidus · 13-03-2014 4:00pm

Why do people do favours for other people? Is it because the expect reciprocation at some point? because it boosts their standing with others or in their community? For reputational purposes?

Maybe its just because they're nice.

hatrickpatrick · 13-03-2014 4:11pm

droidus wrote: »

Why do people do favours for other people? Is it because the expect reciprocation at some point? because it boosts their standing with others or in their community? For reputational purposes?

Maybe its just because they're nice.

We have a horrible deference to authority among some sections of Irish life and this manifests by treating them as if they are above the law.
Hell, look at Godge's persistent defence of the establishment in literally any thread in which dishonesty, bending of rules or anything else is discussed.

To be honest Godge, I'm actually hopeful that you have allegiances to a particular party for whatever reason and wouldn't be so eager to defend, for instance, FF if they were the ones in power at the moment. Might sound strange to say I hope for this, but in my view someone being a party hack is actually by far the lesser of two evils when compared with the idea that someone simply believes that important / powerful people in general should have their wrongdoing excused.

Godge · 13-03-2014 4:19pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

We have a horrible deference to authority among some sections of Irish life and this manifests by treating them as if they are above the law.
Hell, look at Godge's persistent defence of the establishment in literally any thread in which dishonesty, bending of rules or anything else is discussed.

To be honest Godge, I'm actually hopeful that you have allegiances to a particular party for whatever reason and wouldn't be so eager to defend, for instance, FF if they were the ones in power at the moment. Might sound strange to say I hope for this, but in my view someone being a party hack is actually by far the lesser of two evils when compared with the idea that someone simply believes that important / powerful people in general should have their wrongdoing excused.

No, not a party hack.

Have voted for Greens, PDs, FG, Labour, FF and Independents over the last 30 years of voting. Will never vote for SF and will never vote for FF again because they destroyed the country.

There is no wrongdoing by Shatter to excuse. Yet. He may yet have to resign but there was nothing in this report, let us wait for the next one.

Over the years I haven't excused Haughey, Ahern, Burke, Lowry etc. and wouldn't ever excuse them. At the same time, we live in a democracy and while it baffles me that the people of Tipperary North elected Lowry time and again, that is their right. Similarly, other constituencies elect known terrorists.

hatrickpatrick · 13-03-2014 5:08pm

Godge wrote: »

No, not a party hack.

Have voted for Greens, PDs, FG, Labour, FF and Independents over the last 30 years of voting. Will never vote for SF and will never vote for FF again because they destroyed the country.

You actually sound fairly similar to myself when you put it like that

There is no wrongdoing by Shatter to excuse.

In your opinion. To take a different but related case, would you agree that his smearing of Wallace using a report from a Garda should have been enough to cost him his ministry?

Yet. He may yet have to resign but there was nothing in this report, let us wait for the next one.

Over the years I haven't excused Haughey, Ahern, Burke, Lowry etc. and wouldn't ever excuse them. At the same time, we live in a democracy and while it baffles me that the people of Tipperary North elected Lowry time and again, that is their right. Similarly, other constituencies elect known terrorists.

Ok, but this is what confuses me - you defended Noonan and Kenny breaching a salary cap to award a pay rise to an old friend of theirs, even though this is an incredibly obvious example of both double standards and cronyism. You seem to also have defended Shatter's attack on GSOC, although perhaps I've misunderstood you and you haven't actually in fact defended it?

Genuinely not trying to troll you or anything I'm just curious, as whenever I've ended up in a debate with you along any of these issues you've tended to have no common thread throughout your political arguments other than a persistent defence of those in power when their behavior is called into question,. The reason I asked you about parties was simply because I've seen you write very scathing posts about FF before and wasn't sure whether this was merely because they are not currently in office

If it had been Ahern and Cowen who breached salary caps to reward old mates would you have reacted the same way?

Perhaps you simply have a different threshold for what should count as "wrongdoing" to the threshold I have, in which case the issue is that I'd hold people to far higher standards and be far less forgiving of general shenanigans. Not saying that my way is right and yours is wrong btw, but that's a potential explanation for our repeated clashes on these subjects

gizmo555 · 13-03-2014 5:44pm

Godge wrote: »

Again what undue advantage accrues to a garda who cancels the penalty points of a sports personality?

Yes, there has been abuse of a position but the second part is again missing.

We're into Alice in Wonderland territory here. It appears when you use the word corruption "it means just what you choose it to mean—neither more nor less."

Nowhere in the definition from the Irish government anti-corruption website does it say that undue advantage must accrue directly to the persons who abuse their positions for their conduct to amount to corruption. That distinction exists only in your imagination.

Godge · 13-03-2014 5:54pm

gizmo555 wrote: »

We're into Alice in Wonderland territory here. It appears when you use the word corruption "it means just what you choose it to mean—neither more nor less."

Nowhere in the definition from the Irish government anti-corruption website does it say that undue advantage must accrue directly to the persons who abuse their positions for their conduct to amount to corruption. That distinction exists only in your imagination.

The distinction is implicit in the definition. Not everything has to be spelled out.

If that is the case, then any public servant in using their discretion steps outside certain strict guidelines is automatically guilty of corruption in your eyes.

So if a teacher gives some extra help to a student (rather than to all students in their class) that is corruption.
So if a public servant keeps the passport office door open for two minutes past closing time to let in someone who has a flight to catch, that is corruption.

Both cases are an abuse of position to favour certain people and there is a gain for those people.

gizmo555 · 13-03-2014 5:55pm

Godge wrote: »

The distinction is implicit in the definition. Not everything has to be spelled out.

If that is the case, then any public servant in using their discretion steps outside certain strict guidelines is automatically guilty of corruption in your eyes.

So if a teacher gives some extra help to a student (rather than to all students in their class) that is corruption.
So if a public servant keeps the passport office door open for two minutes past closing time to let in someone who has a flight to catch, that is corruption.

Both cases are an abuse of position to favour certain people and there is a gain for those people.

OK Humpty.

Godge · 13-03-2014 6:07pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Ok, but this is what confuses me - you defended Noonan and Kenny breaching a salary cap to award a pay rise to an old friend of theirs, even though this is an incredibly obvious example of both double standards and cronyism. You seem to also have defended Shatter's attack on GSOC, although perhaps I've misunderstood you and you haven't actually in fact defended it?

Genuinely not trying to troll you or anything I'm just curious, as whenever I've ended up in a debate with you along any of these issues you've tended to have no common thread throughout your political arguments other than a persistent defence of those in power when their behavior is called into question,. The reason I asked you about parties was simply because I've seen you write very scathing posts about FF before and wasn't sure whether this was merely because they are not currently in office If it had been Ahern and Cowen who breached salary caps to reward old mates would you have reacted the same way?

Perhaps you simply have a different threshold for what should count as "wrongdoing" to the threshold I have, in which case the issue is that I'd hold people to far higher standards and be far less forgiving of general shenanigans. Not saying that my way is right and yours is wrong btw, but that's a potential explanation for our repeated clashes on these subjects

Don't remember the salary cap thing, but three points on it, one, if you set a cap yourself, why can't you change your mind, two, if you want the best person you don't pay peanuts to a monkey and three, to every rule there is an exception, unless you believe that is corruption too.

Now you won't find me defending Flannery and Rehab. That one smells.

I actually have a lot of respect for the Gardai. I know several Gardai and have had dealings with some of their management over the years when I was in the public service and have respect. Don't know any of the current lot though. Maybe I am blinded by that.

If you go back 30 years, you will also have respect for Shatter. He has also made powerful enemies in his attempts to reform the Law Library. No surprise to see someone like McDowell offering his services to Shatter's opponents as a result.

In the case of the penalty points, what is clear is that there was a ramshackle system with no oversight but in the greater scheme of things, when you are dealing with murder, rapes, drugs and serious crime, I can see why penalty points were off in the corner not being reformed. I really don't see this as corruption or a resigning issue.

Donegal was different and there was something nasty up there. Some of the other stuff coming out may be the same and if Callinan was covering it up, he may have to go. But it is too early to say.

I think the difference between us is I don't rush to judgment on everything, I want to see the hard evidence and I do believe that the penalty should fit the crime. (For example, on the Callely thread, people were calling for his pension to be taken off him - we don't take pensions off people in this country for serious crimes (Burke got his despite time in jail), why should we take it off him for fiddling expenses. I am not saying it is not a serious issue and he definitely should never be let near public office again but a short jail sentence, a heavy fine and repayment of all fraudulent expenses is sufficient punishment.)

aloyisious · 13-03-2014 10:24pm

One thing I'm actually surprised at is that no one seem's (apart from AS and the Comm) to have been aware of the Gda Inspectorate looking into what's now described as an dysfunctional system. That's been kept very well below the parapets, given how it started to look at the Garda Penalty Points system handling in May of 2013, almost ten months ago. Comm Callinan is the CEO of an Garda Siochana and is responsible as the Chief Reporting Officer of that force to the Minister of Justice, who is (in turn) responsible directly to the Dail. I suppose AS was not too anxious to piss off that group, unlike how he turned on the GO.

Going Forward · 13-03-2014 10:30pm

The point is that most ordinary motorists who were given penalty points were not even aware that others were having theirs wiped, with no regard to the official appeal system.

The point is that Callinan thought it was disgusting that two members of "his force" should try to rectify the abuse of the penalty points system.

I dont know what he thought was disgusting, was it their methods, or their audacity to even suggest that there was something wrong with "his force".

He was firmly on the side of the remaining 12998 members who for whatever reasons would keep it quiet, and having seen his attitude to the whistleblowers, you can see how they mightnt have the courage to stand up like the whistleblowers have.

I also have had dealings with members, and yes they are human, with faults and failings, but for ordinary people the issue is that up to now it was universally accepted that if you were a gaurd's relation, you werent going to be lumbered with penalty points-
I'll get them sorted for you.

Slick50 · 13-03-2014 10:40pm

Godge wrote: »

In the case of the penalty points, what is clear is that there was a ramshackle system with no oversight

There were people, high ranking gardai, responsible for oversight. In many cases, these were the very people abusing the system. Callinan is the man ultimately responsible for ensuring these men did their jobs right. He failed to do this, and when these failings were highlighted, he went on the attack. But, instead of attacking the whistleblowers, he should have been addressing the problem, kicking a*se and getting these men back in line, or out of the force

[Deleted User] · 13-03-2014 10:45pm

Going Forward wrote: »

The point is that most ordinary motorists who were given penalty points were not even aware that others were having theirs wiped, with no regard to the official appeal system.

you cant consider THAT corruption! just because ordinary motorists were not aware others were getting tickets cancelled!

anyone that has ever received a ticket that they did not believe to be fair has always been told that they should write to the Superindent outlining the reason they feel that the ticket should be cancelled. then the Superintendent would decide whether to cancel the ticket.

the Garda Inspectorate report was ordered last year i believe? so basically the Garda Whistleblowers complaints worked originally and the system will be overhauled anyway.
basically there was no need for them to 'go public' as such?

Going Forward · 13-03-2014 11:06pm

bubblypop wrote: »

you cant consider THAT corruption! just because ordinary motorists were not aware others were getting tickets cancelled!

anyone that has ever received a ticket that they did not believe to be fair has always been told that they should write to the Superindent outlining the reason they feel that the ticket should be cancelled. then the Superintendent would decide whether to cancel the ticket.

the Garda Inspectorate report was ordered last year i believe? so basically the Garda Whistleblowers complaints worked originally and the system will be overhauled anyway.
basically there was no need for them to 'go public' as such?

Yes it is corrupt practice to wipe points for family members, or other favoured individuals; it is an abuse of power, is it not?

Can you post an official link which shows me that I should contact the Superintendant to query or try to have my points wiped?

The only thing I can find from AGS online about it is this:

http://www.garda.ie/FAQ/Default.aspx?FAQCategory=35

There's no mention of contacting the local Super with a sob story to get off carrying a correctly issued fixed charge penalty.

What do you think Callinan was disgusted by?

Do you feel disgusted by it too?

Banjo String · 13-03-2014 11:07pm

bubblypop wrote: »

anyone that has ever received a ticket that they did not believe to be fair has always been told that they should write to the Superindent outlining the reason they feel that the ticket should be cancelled . then the Superintendent would decide whether to cancel the ticket.?

Or "go to court, tell it to the judge" .

A Gard has never told me to write to the Superindent tbh.

Godge · 13-03-2014 11:13pm

Banjo String wrote: »

Or "go to court, tell it to the judge" .

A Gard has never told me to write to the Superindent tbh.

It is on the written notice as far as I recall, I have one upstairs somewhere.

It is needed if you don't own the car or someone else was driving etc.

Busted Flat. · 13-03-2014 11:16pm

bubblypop wrote: »

you cant consider THAT corruption! just because ordinary motorists were not aware others were getting tickets cancelled!

anyone that has ever received a ticket that they did not believe to be fair has always been told that they should write to the Superindent outlining the reason they feel that the ticket should be cancelled. then the Superintendent would decide whether to cancel the ticket.

the Garda Inspectorate report was ordered last year i believe? so basically the Garda Whistleblowers complaints worked originally and the system will be overhauled anyway.
basically there was no need for them to 'go public' as such?

How would you describe corruption, and going by your post, if they didn't go public how else could this situation have been brought to the public's attention. Secondly would you have proffered for this sort of corruption being kept from the public. A few examples in this corrupt state, REHAB, CRC, Portlaois hospital, Neary in Our of Lourds hospital, (how that name is still on that kip really amazes me). I can go on and list thousands of examples of corruption in this sorry corrupt state, but why bother. Whistle blowers will be the savior of our country. So you guys and gals blow your whistle as loud as you can, and tell the corrupt fook off.

Busted Flat. · 13-03-2014 11:17pm

bubblypop wrote: »

you cant consider THAT corruption! just because ordinary motorists were not aware others were getting tickets cancelled!

anyone that has ever received a ticket that they did not believe to be fair has always been told that they should write to the Superindent outlining the reason they feel that the ticket should be cancelled. then the Superintendent would decide whether to cancel the ticket.

the Garda Inspectorate report was ordered last year i believe? so basically the Garda Whistleblowers complaints worked originally and the system will be overhauled anyway.
basically there was no need for them to 'go public' as such?

How would you describe corruption, and going by your post, if they didn't go public how else could this situation have been brought to the public's attention. Secondly would you have proffered for this sort of corruption being kept from the public. A few examples in this corrupt state, REHAB, CRC, Portlaois hospital, Neary in Our Lady of Lourds hospital, (how that name is still on that kip really amazes me). I can go on and list thousands of examples of corruption in this sorry corrupt state, but why bother. Whistle blowers will be the savior of our country. So you guys and gals blow your whistle as loud as you can, and tell the corrupt and their supporters to fook off.

[Deleted User] · 13-03-2014 11:18pm

Going Forward wrote: »

Can you post an official link which shows me that I should contact the Superintendant to query or try to have my points wiped?

What do you think Callinan was disgusted by?

Do you feel disgusted by it too?

i cant post any link to that im afraid but i do know that that is the law, the local Superintendent, up until now when things are going to change, could always cancel tickets. i dont believe that was the problem though, it was that the whistleblowers believed they were cancelling tickets without 'proper' reasons.

it was quite reasonable that people with a GENUINE reason get their ticket cancelled, or if you leave it till court you tell the judge your reason, more often than not judge would believe you.

i think Callinan was disgusted by the amount of private peoples information that was being accessed by via the PULSE system and then leaked, through whatever means, into the public domain.
would you want your personal information out there for everyone to know?

listen, im no fan of the Commisioner or Shatter, they both should be gone long ago, but im also a believer in right and wrong and its wrong for Gardai to breach the Official Secrets Act or to reveal private information about private citizens to feather their own beds as such.

Going Forward · 13-03-2014 11:18pm

Godge wrote: »

It is on the written notice as far as I recall, I have one upstairs somewhere.

It is needed if you don't own the car or someone else was driving etc.

Any chance of uploading it?

I thought you had to direct any queries to the issuing office in Thurles(?) only. Or go to court.

Minister Shatter and Commissioner Callinan should both resign in disgrace

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