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RTPI and 'missing' busses

13

Comments

  • #62
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,541 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    That's the funniest thing I've read all day.

    I've already made a city public transport information and newsfeed website for them and/or the council, as per my signature. (The council promised to do it in 2009, but didn't deliver.) I'm damned if I'm going to do enough data collection and defect-writing to convince them that they've screwed up the RTPI implementation. And anything less than very detailed observations, they will just write off as one-off cases.

    Reading back, perhaps I wasn't clear enough. This is not about buses that aren't in service yet. In both the example I gave, and many others I've seen, the bus has already left the terminal and travelled a fair way (5+km) along its route. There is no excuse for it to be showing anything but real-time plus the prediction between its last reported location and where I am. Instead, the app was showing predictions based on timetable *alone* - and in this case it should not have the words "real time" listed by it.



    My post was made in relation to myself, so I'm not sure what is particularly "funny" about it. I have had over 25 years experience in corresponding with the various operators/authorities and I certainly find that actually they do appreciate feedback. If I spot something wrong, such as an on-street RTPI sign not working or a timetable error, I will report it.


    Not doing it just means the problem perpetuates, and (as someone else pointed out in this thread), everyone loses out. Most of the things that I've reported were things that the companies were not aware of.


    That's why (in a way) I'm maybe a little disappointed that you, clearly as someone who has an interest in public transport (having gone to the trouble of creating your excellent website) thinks it's not worthwhile alerting BE/NTA to the problem. I do find that when people make genuine efforts at pointing out mistakes or issues, that the companies are actually reasonably good at fixing them.


  • #63
    thomasj
    Registered Users Posts: 4,785 ✭✭✭thomasj


    On a different note, i have noticed that buses showing as due now are arriving 5 minutes later. the occasions i have taken or seen 39, 39a or 220 yesterday or today the buses were showing as due for 5 minutes before they actually arrived and were constantly disappearing and reappearing on the rtpi poles.


  • #64
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,541 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    thomasj wrote: »
    On a different note, i have noticed that buses showing as due now are arriving 5 minutes later. the occasions i have taken or seen 39, 39a or 220 yesterday or today the buses were showing as due for 5 minutes before they actually arrived and were constantly disappearing and reappearing on the rtpi poles.



    That sounds like they were stuck in traffic - and the times just kept repeating.


  • #65
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,541 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    To go back to the OP, any chance you could tell us what you were using to check the real times?


  • #66
    ArmaniJeanss
    Registered Users Posts: 13,285 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    39/39a/70 route does seem fubared on RTPI the last few nights, this is way past peak time (around 8pm) and mid journey.

    e.g., standing in Stoneybatter at 8.10pm the onstreet display says 2 mins for a 39a and a 70, 3 mins for a 39. Then the numbers go up to 3 and 4, then the 39 disappears totally. The numbers change between 2 and 3 minutes for around 5 minutes, then the 39a and 70 arrive at which stage the display still reads 2 minutes for their arrival.
    On the journey up the Navan Rd I checked some of the stops on dublinbuslive and it was way out on that as well. I changed to a 38a in Blanch village, it arrived when the on street display was still saying 4 minutes.


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  • #67
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Why doesn't the phone app let you see the actual location of your bus on map and let people guess when it's due and see its progress in real time?


  • #68
    gladrags
    Registered Users Posts: 6,028 ✭✭✭gladrags


    They have buses that go backwards,thats why the real time goes in reverse.


  • #69
    TheBandicoot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 879 ✭✭✭TheBandicoot


    I've also noticed that the 39a/39/70 routes are totally messed up on RTPI this week- the buses are arriving on time but they randomly appear and disappear on displays, and the displays say information totally different to the website(which is also wrong).

    Can't complain too much, got a free journey yesterday because the validator was broken.


  • #70
    Avada
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,411 ✭✭✭Avada


    Another person here who has noticed the 70 missing from RTPI. The 22.20 70 to Dunboyne wasn't on RTPI at all (from 10pm onwards anyway). This was at its first stop


  • #71
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,446 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Another issue I've noticed with RTPI is wrong route!

    Two weeks ago on two separate days I was waiting for a 16. RTPI said a 16 was coming, but instead a 16C arrived at the predicted time. Now that might be fine for most people as they are only going to the city, but in both cases I wanted to continue the journey beyond the city. This is sloppy and not good enough. It should be easy to indicate that the bus is actually a 16C

    This also shows the ridiculous set up with fares. I ended up taking the 16C into town and another bus out of town for a total cost of €5. But had the actual 16 turned up, I could have made the exact same journey for €2.50!

    We really need to move to an Amsterdam style tag-on/tag-off per km charge system, much, much fairer.


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  • #72
    Avada
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,411 ✭✭✭Avada


    Slightly OT, but instead of tag on/tag off I'd prefer to see a flat fare with a travel 90 kind of function personally. Perhaps thats a discussion for another day!


  • #73
    GLaDOS
    Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 23,199 Mod ✭✭✭✭GLaDOS


    bk wrote: »
    Another issue I've noticed with RTPI is wrong route!

    Two weeks ago on two separate days I was waiting for a 16. RTPI said a 16 was coming, but instead a 16C arrived at the predicted time. Now that might be fine for most people as they are only going to the city, but in both cases I wanted to continue the journey beyond the city. This is sloppy and not good enough. It should be easy to indicate that the bus is actually a 16C
    I've had the same happen several times with the 9, as well as the 16. 9c is useless if you're going from DCU to Walkinstown!

    Cake, and grief counseling, will be available at the conclusion of the test



  • #74
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,541 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    bk wrote: »
    Another issue I've noticed with RTPI is wrong route!

    Two weeks ago on two separate days I was waiting for a 16. RTPI said a 16 was coming, but instead a 16C arrived at the predicted time. Now that might be fine for most people as they are only going to the city, but in both cases I wanted to continue the journey beyond the city. This is sloppy and not good enough. It should be easy to indicate that the bus is actually a 16C

    This also shows the ridiculous set up with fares. I ended up taking the 16C into town and another bus out of town for a total cost of €5. But had the actual 16 turned up, I could have made the exact same journey for €2.50!

    We really need to move to an Amsterdam style tag-on/tag-off per km charge system, much, much fairer.
    ScienceNerd wrote: »
    I've had the same happen several times with the 9, as well as the 16. 9c is useless if you're going from DCU to Walkinstown!



    That would have been an unscheduled change, probably due to a lack of driver from the city onwards.


    The controller should have overwritten the route number on the system from 16 to 16c, which clearly didn't happen. There is an issue where for whatever reason the on-street signs cannot cope with route curtailments, however the Dublin Bus app can.


    The only practical advice I can give is to use the Dublin Bus app as it comes directly off the server.


  • #75
    GLaDOS
    Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 23,199 Mod ✭✭✭✭GLaDOS


    lxflyer wrote: »

    The only practical advice I can give is to use the Dublin Bus app as it comes directly off the server.

    I've seen the app get it wrong more than once

    Cake, and grief counseling, will be available at the conclusion of the test



  • #76
    Kerry_2008
    Registered Users Posts: 277 ✭✭Kerry_2008


    The RTPI is a joke, I get the same bus nearly every morning and if its late the RTPI still shows these 'phantom' buses stopping. Its either real time or its not. If its not real time don'r say it is


  • #77
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,541 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    ScienceNerd wrote: »
    I've seen the app get it wrong more than once



    That will be down to the controller not updating it. Ultimately any system is only as good as the information that is put into it.


    However, by and large the app is the most reliable source of information.


  • #78
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,446 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    It still shows a great deal of sloppiness and unprofessional on Dublin Buses part and it needs to be fixed.

    When I say fixed, I mean DB management ensuring that the Drivers/Controllers always properly update these changes.
    Random_Name wrote: »
    Slightly OT, but instead of tag on/tag off I'd prefer to see a flat fare with a travel 90 kind of function personally. Perhaps thats a discussion for another day!

    There are a number of disadvantages to this:

    - It punishes people going short distances while rewarding those going long distance (not necessarily a bad thing IMO), but a per km based system would be much fairer.
    - Because of the above a per km system would likely receive less public and political criticism and those more likely to actually happen. Dublin Bus previously tired to introduce flat fares, but it was scrapped last minute due to political intervention.
    - A per km system would allow better integration with Luas and DART if they were also to change to the same system (they sort of are already this sort of system). A T90 type ticket only works on Dublin Bus, but in Amsterdam, the per km system works across all modes and thus promotes multi-modal transport and integration. Something the current ticketing and Leap card fails miserably at.


  • #79
    thomasj
    Registered Users Posts: 4,785 ✭✭✭thomasj


    Ffs!

    Arrived 10 minutes ago on wood quay to see on sign 39a due in 1 min. Over the space of 4 minutes it switched back and forth between 1 and 2 minutes before settling at due for 1 minute and then disappearing.

    That was 10 minutes ago, it has yet to arrive!


  • #80
    thomasj
    Registered Users Posts: 4,785 ✭✭✭thomasj


    In the end the 39 arrived, i asked the driver whats the story with the 39a to which he replied he hadnt a clue so i got on. It was packed right upto the doors.

    The bus journey was taking long enough so i got off at the halfway house. At this stage there was no 39 or 39a showing up on the board but 37 38 and 70 and on the website it was showing 17 minutes for the next 39a so i said id get the 70.

    I looked up and the 39a had arrived! 3 people on board the bus and i got home in record time! No sign of it anywhere on rtpi or the dublin bus website.


  • #81
    MOH
    Registered Users Posts: 6,464 ✭✭✭MOH


    ScienceNerd wrote: »
    I've had the same happen several times with the 9, as well as the 16. 9c is useless if you're going from DCU to Walkinstown!

    Same problem with 15s. The only scheduled 15Cs are the last ones at night, but more than once I've gotten on (or been about to) a 15 that ended up terminating in the city centre. They're not extra buses, since no actual 15 turned up. At least once it was during the reduced summer timetable, leaving a ridiculous gap at rush hour.

    RTPI is just a mess on a regular basis. Rushed to D'Olier St yesterday morning to connect with a 46A, two were due in 6 minutes when I was 5 minutes away. Gotto the stop, both counted down to 'due', stayed there for about 3 minutes, then jumped to 5 minutes, stayed at that for a couple of minutes, then both buses appeared simultaneously while not 'due' for 4 minutes (although about 10 minutes after originally due).


    As for informing Dublin bus about these issues, I've found it pointless. Twice in the past year I informed them of serious dangerous driving by buses, got identical cut-and-pasted generic emails. I've mailed them about RTPI issues, buses not stopping, and received cut+paste replies for those too.
    About the only time they actually sent a 'relevant' reply was in response to a complaint about being delayed over ten minutes waiting for a driver change. They helpfully replied that their figures showed the average over a 2 hour period was under five minutes. Possibly accurate, but completely irrelevant.

    I don't see the point of wasting further time dealing with them, they appear to have no interest in improving the situation.


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  • #82
    mmmcake
    Closed Accounts Posts: 118 ✭✭mmmcake


    MOH wrote: »
    As for informing Dublin bus about these issues, I've found it pointless. Twice in the past year I informed them of serious dangerous driving by buses, got identical cut-and-pasted generic emails. I've mailed them about RTPI issues, buses not stopping, and received cut+paste replies for those too.
    About the only time they actually sent a 'relevant' reply was in response to a complaint about being delayed over ten minutes waiting for a driver change. They helpfully replied that their figures showed the average over a 2 hour period was under five minutes. Possibly accurate, but completely irrelevant.

    I don't see the point of wasting further time dealing with them, they appear to have no interest in improving the situation.

    This sums up the problem, its just one person sending in multiple complaints, the first few complaints will be looked into then whoever is responsible for investigating complaints will notice the same name on the complaints.
    This person will then get pegged as a serial complainer/ old bat and all future complaints will be put in the bin, this happen in every job.

    If you want real change it will only happen if many people complain, if its just the one person all the time nothing will happen.


  • #83
    JustAddWater
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,990 ✭✭✭JustAddWater


    Fantastic system this whole thing

    Had to go to the shop in the rain to buy leap credit, PAST the bus stop and back up to the stop. Can't do it online because you need to load it in the shop. Why bother especially when the site in 2014 is not even mobile compatible.

    If that's not the best thing since sliced bread, I'm waiting at the stop, bus is 2 mins away... Nope, 2 mins comes and goes. Next ones in 30, let's see if it comes. 'Real' time means something different at the dept of transport. Didn't get that memo

    Marvel at the future of transport in Ireland! If I wasn't being rained on it'd actually be funny

    Doesn't take genius to see why buses are losing passengers. One look at the traffic in the morning will tell you all you need to know

    Sincerely, A soaked and disappointed dublin bus user


  • #84
    km991148
    Registered Users Posts: 4,275 ✭✭✭km991148


    lxflyer wrote: »
    OK leaving aside the RTPI issues, reading your posts, I'm assuming that you're going for the 06:30 or 06:50 departures on the 65b outbound from the city.

    From experience (I used to use the 65 and 65b on a daily basis outbound from Terenure in the early mornings for five years) I would expect them to take around 12-20 minutes to appear in Terenure, depending on traffic.

    Therefore I'd expect that the first one should appear between 06:40-06:50, and the second one between 07:00-07:10.

    I suspect you missed the first one this morning - it would probably have passed a couple of minutes earlier than 06:48.

    Depending on where you are going, if you miss either of these you should take a 49 or 65 and connect to another route in Tallaght if necessary - they both intersect with the 77a in Tallaght if you are going to Citywest, rather than forking out €20 for a taxi.

    Getting back to the predictive times, looking at the journey planner there appears to be an error in the RTPI predictive times as there is no way it would take 26 minutes at that hour of the morning for the bus to get to Terenure. The predictive times appear to have changed on the journey planner recently, and looking at the older times (which for some reason are still there) they were giving each bus 16 minutes to get to Terenure, which was closer to the mark.

    What I don't understand is why the real times are not overwriting the predictive times.

    What are you using to look at the real time? An on-street display, Dublin Bus app or NTA Journey planner?


    Hi - sorry been a busy few days!


    1st - sorry - but I did write times wron - when I said 7:56 I mean 6:56.

    As far as I can tell the system (I am talking about the db website directly) is showing the predicted timetable times.

    However it looks like the bus is running early,* i.e. ahead of the predictions and the RTPI is not showing this.
    To me, when the buses are running early RTPI is no use. The predicted times are only of use against a popper timetable.

    NOTE - * I define this as a bus being early - I guess Dublin Bus has some Ts and Cs about the times being a guess etc.


    Question tho - if we have rTPI installed why don't we update the guesstimate times bases on actual data? I would guess it would be trivial for each rout to have timetable prediction calculated bases on real data?


  • #85
    thomasj
    Registered Users Posts: 4,785 ✭✭✭thomasj


    A different day same story, 20-30 minute wait for 39a in the timebeing 2 39s showed up before it and when it arrived a trixale came with no room to take passengers.

    This was at 8pm this evening


  • #86
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,541 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    km991148 wrote: »
    Hi - sorry been a busy few days!


    1st - sorry - but I did write times wron - when I said 7:56 I mean 6:56.

    As far as I can tell the system (I am talking about the db website directly) is showing the predicted timetable times.

    However it looks like the bus is running early,* i.e. ahead of the predictions and the RTPI is not showing this.
    To me, when the buses are running early RTPI is no use. The predicted times are only of use against a popper timetable.

    NOTE - * I define this as a bus being early - I guess Dublin Bus has some Ts and Cs about the times being a guess etc.


    Question tho - if we have rTPI installed why don't we update the guesstimate times bases on actual data? I would guess it would be trivial for each rout to have timetable prediction calculated bases on real data?



    You were definitely using and refreshing the Dublin Bus website or app?


  • #87
    km991148
    Registered Users Posts: 4,275 ✭✭✭km991148


    lxflyer wrote: »
    You were definitely using and refreshing the Dublin Bus website or app?

    yep - doesn't matter now - new start time this week so wont be able to monitor/test the system on DBs behalf - I will monitor and email them in the future.

    In the meantime I will walk (~50mins) tot he Luas - journey time will be the same as multiple DB buses but I will get marginally fitter in the process..


  • #88
    Monife
    Registered Users Posts: 3,014 ✭✭✭Monife


    thomasj wrote: »
    Ffs!

    Arrived 10 minutes ago on wood quay to see on sign 39a due in 1 min. Over the space of 4 minutes it switched back and forth between 1 and 2 minutes before settling at due for 1 minute and then disappearing.

    That was 10 minutes ago, it has yet to arrive!

    That happens to me at least once a day. It is infuriating. Waiting on buses can feel like a never-ending wait but this added to it would annoy the most patient person.

    Another RTPI issue I experience regularly, is that my bus is stated as being 9 minutes away, grand i'll mosey on down to the stop in a while, no rush. Check it 2 minutes later, bus is 2 minutes away, f*ck, have to absolutely leg it to the stop.

    Also, "real time" app states bus is 5 minutes away then I check it again and it has dropped off the screen. So I take my time and mosey down to the stop to wait for the next one and I see said bus flying passed me! :mad:


  • #89
    MOH
    Registered Users Posts: 6,464 ✭✭✭MOH


    Left on Tuesday for a stop 4 minutes away, two buses due in 7 mins - both passed me before I got to the stop.

    Given it was over 20 mins to the next one, decided to walk to the city centre terminus where I'd have more choice of buses.
    First stop there showed the next bus leaving in 12 mins. There was one sitting there, asked the driver how long he'd be waiting - "at least 5 minutes".

    Ran to the next stop which also had a bus waiting, sign said departing in 1 minute. Got on that, it pulled off about 3 minutes later just after the first bus had gone past.

    There's just no basis in reality for the times. "Unreal time passenger information" would be better.


  • #90
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    My personal experience using it is that it is great, it is not perfect, but I think people need to be realistic, it is a guide and an estimation based on "normal" average operating times and on what the bus is doing and what buses are doing in front of it.

    So if it "normally" on average takes 9 minutes between point A and point B then that is what it will display, however if there is no traffic or much lighter traffic or lighter loading it will take a much shorter space of time than that, sometimes so much so that the RTPI doesn't get a chance to update. So that 9 minutes could be a relatively short distance say College Green to Aston Quay so the bus has covered the distance before the system has even had a chance to update.

    Traffic in Dublin is weird and really hard to predict and the Luas CC work is making it even weirder and more unpredictable, take last night around 8pm work started at O'Connell bridge reducing Bachelors walk to one lane, work around in College green reduced it to one lane, and on the south quays Ushers Quay was down to one lane so at what would normally be a relatively quiet time buses are taking much longer to get there so RTPI is displaying 9 minutes and it takes 20, then the traffic eases off the lane is reopened the RTPI is displaying 15 based on the buses ahead are doing and boom the bus arrives in 10 minutes while you are in the shop thinking you have another 5 minutes to spare.


    IMO what would be really useful is an app with a map system that showed you the actual location of buses on the particular route not just an expected time of arrival, if you could see the bus is literally just around the corner rather than x minutes away you could make a better judgement as to whether you should wait, walk to the next stop, nip into the shop etc.


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  • #91
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,446 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    cdebru wrote: »
    My personal experience using it is that it is great, it is not perfect, but I think people need to be realistic, it is a guide and an estimation based on "normal" average operating times and on what the bus is doing and what buses are doing in front of it.

    I agree, people need to take RTPI as a guideline.

    However I don't think there is any excuse for RTPI saying a 16 is coming and a 16C turns up. That is simply inexcusable bad management.

    I wonder if part of the problem with time predictions is how often each bus communicates its actual location to the servers. I wonder if it is every 30 seconds or every minute or every two minutes.

    The frequency of the communication can have a big effect on the accuracy of the prediction.

    Also people need to keep in mind that mobile networks are far from perfect and that sometimes the bus may fail to communicate it's location to the servers due to network failure.


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