Fiscal Treaty Referendum.....How will you vote?

Sand · 31-05-2012 4:34pm

Just back in - voted No to give our country the best possible chance of recovery. Turnout seems low based on the comments of the staff working the polling station but its early, it may pick up as people get off work.

Happyman42 · 31-05-2012 4:34pm

molloyjh wrote: »

I'm just surprised you lasted this long. I've actively avoided the politics forum since Lisbon II, coming back to see how things are now. I can't see how I ever stuck it in the first place. As I said earlier, some people don't want to see the truth. They want to have their outrage, misguided and poorly conceived though it may be. And they'll do anything to prevent anyone taking it away from them. Including any kind of strange insistence that you said something you never did. Addressing your actual point may cause their house of cards to collapse. And they'd much rather be wrong than, well, be wrong. On any other forum it would be viewed as trolling.

How's the 'truth' of Lisbon 2 been for you then? Jobs, prosperity...yeh? :rolleyes:

charlemont · 31-05-2012 4:36pm

darkman2 wrote: »

Interesting to observe how useless these boards.ie polls are. In Lisbon 2 it was vast majority saying no on here but in the real world it passed comfortably. I do think these polls are a waste of time on previous evidence really. But anyway..

If I was a betting man I'd say the No side will win it, Iv never known there to be such hostility towards the EU as there is now, I personally think the EU is being used as a scapegoat for the damage our own politicians have done. Nobody trusts politicians now especially since none of them or their banker/developer friends have seen the inside of a prison. :mad:

BTW There is a lot I don't like about the EU either, It's got too many layers of officialdom now, Same as in Ireland I suppose.

PopeBuckfastXVI · 31-05-2012 4:40pm

charlemont wrote: »

I personally think the EU is being used as a scapegoat for the damage our own politicians have done. Nobody trusts politicians now especially since none of them or their banker/developer friends have seen the inside of a prison. :mad:

It doesn't help that our local chaps will claim everything good that the EU has done as a victory for them, 'look at this motorway we built lads aren't we great'! And blame every unpopular law on the EU, 'ah sure jaysus lads I'd have allowed de fags be in de pubs but sure twas Yooorup dat told us not to...'

freeze4real · 31-05-2012 4:41pm

when will the results be out, keeping an eye on this to see how it wil affect the euro in general.

DoesNotCompute · 31-05-2012 4:42pm

laoch na mona wrote: »

votáil níl in my first ever election

It's a referendum though, not an election. Subtle difference.

Happyman42 · 31-05-2012 4:44pm

DoesNotCompute wrote: »

It's a referendum though, not an election. Subtle difference.

Bet ya Enda's glad it's not an election! Enda? Enda? remember Enda?:D

PopeBuckfastXVI · 31-05-2012 4:47pm

freeze4real wrote: »

when will the results be out, keeping an eye on this to see how it wil affect the euro in general.

Count starting tomorrow at 9am I think.

charlemont · 31-05-2012 4:50pm

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

It doesn't help that our local chaps will claim everything good that the EU has done as a victory for them, 'look at this motorway we built lads aren't we great'! And blame every unpopular law on the EU, 'ah sure jaysus lads I'd have allowed de fags be in de pubs but sure twas Yooorup dat told us not to...'

True, I often think the new found anti-everything Europe is a slap in the face after all the years of structural funds etc. Lot's of people I knew over the years never voted, Knew nothing about politics and were never any good at History or current affairs but they have jumped on the anti-EU bandwagon since the recession hit partly I think due to tabloid rubbish anyway.

I personally have no problem if someone wants to vote no as long as they know what they are voting about..Voting should be mandatory anyway with politics thought in the school's.

Happyman42 · 31-05-2012 4:55pm

charlemont wrote: »

True, I often think the new found anti-everything Europe is a slap in the face after all the years of structural funds etc. Lot's of people I knew over the years never voted, Knew nothing about politics and were never any good at History or current affairs but they have jumped on the anti-EU bandwagon since the recession hit partly I think due to tabloid rubbish anyway.

I personally have no problem if someone wants to vote no as long as they know what they are voting about..Voting should be mandatory anyway with politics thought in the school's.

Don't disagree with much of that, but bear in mind that this crisis has revealed a lot about how it all works, and how the taxpayer is the one that ultimately foots the bill when things go wrong. That they are now turning against it is understandable, if regretable. We have to face up to fact that it is not working if it's going to be fixed.

Da Shins Kelly · 31-05-2012 5:33pm

Voted no this afternoon. Don't know anyone voting yes. I'll be surprised if the no side don't win.

Will there be an exit poll or anything?

dvpower · 31-05-2012 5:55pm

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

Voted no this afternoon. Don't know anyone voting yes. I'll be surprised if the no side don't win.

Will there be an exit poll or anything?

After the polls close.

Happyman42 · 31-05-2012 6:17pm

dvpower wrote: »

After the polls close.

Extremely low turnout. Will favour the Yes I reckon?

PopeBuckfastXVI · 31-05-2012 6:20pm

Happyman42 wrote: »

Extremely low turnout. Will favour the Yes I reckon?

I would have thought 'no' voters would be more committed.

Happyman42 · 31-05-2012 6:36pm

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

I would have thought 'no' voters would be more committed.

Why 'more'?

BlitzKrieg · 31-05-2012 6:51pm

Happyman42 wrote: »

Extremely low turnout. Will favour the Yes I reckon?

Low turnouts tend to favour the *no* vote in referendums, so I'm not hopeful of a yes win

Happyman42 · 31-05-2012 7:07pm

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

Low turnouts tend to favour the *no* vote in referendums, so I'm not hopeful of a yes win

My spuds just started to taste sweeter, but maybe that's blight and a portent of the coming famine.

PopeBuckfastXVI · 31-05-2012 7:14pm

Happyman42 wrote: »

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

I would have thought 'no' voters would be more committed.

Why 'more'?

Mainly based on Lisbon 1 and nice 1 turnout to no vote ratio, also, and this is purely anecdotal on my part, no voters I have encountered tend to be much more angry and eager to 'send a message'.

liamog · 31-05-2012 7:20pm

First time voting no on an EU referendum, I liked the balanced budget rules but giving access to bailout funds to politicians is a bad idea. As long as we have 5 year governments I can't see the ESM being a good idea.

Good loser · 31-05-2012 7:59pm

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

Voted no this afternoon. Don't know anyone voting yes. I'll be surprised if the no side don't win.

Will there be an exit poll or anything?

I believe the Paddy Power odds on a 'YES' were 1/16. You could have made a lot of money!

xoxyx · 31-05-2012 8:05pm

Just back from voting yes. I've been dipping in and out of this thread throughout the day and I have to say that some of the views expressed frankly scare me.

I understand that times are bad and some people feel that the only way to lash out is to fight against the powers that be, but we need Europe more than it needs us, and if we manage to lose ourselves access to the ESM, we're shooting ourselves in the foot. For a country that has managed to bankrupt itself twice in the last three decades, I'd say we should be taking all the help and guidance that we can get.

Very much hoping this passes.

Ozymandius2011 · 31-05-2012 8:10pm

xoxyx wrote: »

Just back from voting yes. I've been dipping in and out of this thread throughout the day and I have to say that some of the views expressed frankly scare me.

I understand that times are bad and some people feel that the only way to lash out is to fight against the powers that be, but we need Europe more than it needs us, and if we manage to lose ourselves access to the ESM, we're shooting ourselves in the foot. For a country that has managed to bankrupt itself twice in the last three decades, I'd say we should be taking all the help and guidance that we can get.

Very much hoping this passes.

The EU used to be a net positive for Ireland but with EMU it has over-reached itself. National governments are being compelled to bail out zombie banks and bondholders. This entrenches austerity and leads to prolonged deflation and mass unemployment. It's not just us but the Greeks, Spanish, Portuguese and perhaps soon the Italians in the mess. In that context, it becomes harder to argue against the thesis that the crisis has a European causal dimension. We had unduly low interest rates foisted on us largely causing (with other factors such as EU Enlargement) to the housing bubble/crash.

We do need access to the EU Single Market but that is a separate issue.

radioactiveman · 31-05-2012 8:23pm

Some very simple reasons I voted no:
1. We give up budget control Forever. The crisis will eventually end. Afterwards we will have our finances decided in Brussels.

2. Who will decide our finances? Why is Germany so dominant when it is supposed to be a European community? Just 70 years after world war II.

3. Why would we trust the EU with this control when they've just forced us into socialising private debt?

4. These are not the right circumstances to implement a full fiscal union. The way the treaty is drafted shows this (with catch all clauses etc).

Except it's not really a full fiscal union because Germany wouldn't print euro bonds, or euros for that matter, in a fit.

The biggest problem I have with the treaty is that at each juncture we have just said "YES!". At no stage have we actually bargained or argued our position meaningfully.

This is not to say I don't recognise the practicalities of accessing the fund. It's like voting between **** and ****ter:)

Boulevardier · 31-05-2012 8:25pm

Voted no, but predicting a 60-40 yes majority.

I think the no vote might prevail in Dublin working class constituencies (e.g. Dublin SW) plus Donegal and possibly Galway West and Kerry North. However, heavy yes majorities in areas like Dun Laoghaire will more than offset that.

starviewadams · 31-05-2012 8:28pm

Voted No,when FF/FG/Labour/insert corrupt,gombeen party here are urging us to vote YES,I think it's safe the say that NO is the way to go.

We're fúcked either way,so may aswell get things over with now,rather then in 2/3 years time.

porsche boy · 31-05-2012 8:29pm

radioactiveman wrote: »

2. Who will decide our finances? Why is Germany so dominant when it is supposed to be a European community? Just 70 years after world war II.

Interesting point. I said to someone yersterday that the Japanese lost WW1 so they went back, learned English and took over the world through technology. German's loose WW2, go back and take over Europe on an Economic basis. Interesting Innit?

sparkling sea · 31-05-2012 8:32pm

Just back from voting and the two guys at the booth told me, I was one of four people who had come to vote at that booth, in the past hour :eek:

This low turn out should in theory, favour a no vote side but we will have to wait and see!

Godge · 31-05-2012 8:39pm

radioactiveman wrote: »

Some very simple reasons I voted no:
1. We give up budget control Forever. The crisis will eventually end. Afterwards we will have our finances decided in Brussels.

2. Who will decide our finances? Why is Germany so dominant when it is supposed to be a European community? Just 70 years after world war II.

3. Why would we trust the EU with this control when they've just forced us into socialising private debt?

4. These are not the right circumstances to implement a full fiscal union. The way the treaty is drafted shows this (with catch all clauses etc).

Except it's not really a full fiscal union because Germany wouldn't print euro bonds, or euros for that matter, in a fit.

The biggest problem I have with the treaty is that at each juncture we have just said "YES!". At no stage have we actually bargained or argued our position meaningfully.

This is not to say I don't recognise the practicalities of accessing the fund. It's like voting between **** and ****ter:)

Oh dear,

1. We do not give up budget control forever, that is a lie. We promise to stick to the rules we have already agreed to.

2. We will decide our finances. Germany is not dominant, just because Merkel has a big mouth doesn't mean she will prevail

3. The EU did not force us to socialise out private debt, it was the inevitable conclusion of Brian Lenihan's stupidity on the advice of David McWilliams. Blaming the EU for what we did ourselves is lame.

4. This is not a full fiscal union, the treaty is not about that.

A pity you didn't have credible reasons for voting no.

xoxyx · 31-05-2012 8:39pm

Ozymandius2011 wrote: »

The EU used to be a net positive for Ireland but with EMU it has over-reached itself. National governments are being compelled to bail out zombie banks and bondholders. This entrenches austerity and leads to prolonged deflation and mass unemployment. It's not just us but the Greeks, Spanish, Portuguese and perhaps soon the Italians in the mess. In that context, it becomes harder to argue against the thesis that the crisis has a European causal dimension. We had unduly low interest rates foisted on us largely causing (with other factors such as EU Enlargement) to the housing bubble/crash.

We do need access to the EU Single Market but that is a separate issue.

I can't put my hand on my heart and say that I'm in agreement with everything that the EU has done or the decisions that we've made since the bubble burst. One thing I strongly disagree with is the treatment of the bondholders. I would have been one of the first to get out the petrol and strike a match. But, even now, I believe the good outweighs the bad, and the access to funds at a reasonable interest rate is seriously important to us.

We're facing severe and tiring austerity no matter how you look at it. If I believed the no campaigners, should they ever come into power, had an easier way of doing things, I would change my vote straight away. But, talk is cheap and the no campaigners are the people who can say anything they want safe in the knowledge that they can never be called up on it 'cause "everything's the fault of the current government". I would love to see (from afar) how our country fared if they were put in power. IMO, they're the equivalent of shit-stirrers in the playground.

One thing to remember, though, is that this economic crisis is not limited to the EU. It's rife right now, which, I believe, is a cyclical thing. This is a much further reaching issue and, while it's easy to blame Europe, the Euro, the Germans, whoever you can point a finger at, you really have to look at the background.

We didn't help ourselves either with our hopeless handling of money as soon as we realised that we had some. The rot that led to the Irish collapse began when we were all happy as pigs in shite with our many holidays and shiny new cars and no cares about the future.

There's a whole wealth (excuse the pun) of history behind where we came to be where we are, and I don't understand the people who are advocating breaking away from Europe and making our own way out of this mess when we have no experience of doing so and, based on previous experience, we don't have a clue what we're doing and are feeling our way in the dark.

Godge · 31-05-2012 8:42pm

starviewadams wrote: »

Voted No,when FF/FG/Labour/insert corrupt,gombeen party here are urging us to vote YES,I think it's safe the say that NO is the way to go.

We're fúcked either way,so may aswell get things over with now,rather then in 2/3 years time.

But when corrupt (Northern Bank, print cartridges) gombeen (Ferris, O'Snodaigh) parties advise you to vote NO, that is what you do?

Fiscal Treaty Referendum.....How will you vote?

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