Abraham's Sacrifice

Popinjay · 17-01-2008 1:45pm #1

kelly1 wrote: »

I'm sure you're also aware that God was testing Abraham's faithfulness and didn't allow Abraham to go ahead with the sacrifice.

This was mentioned in another thread and I noticed that not many of the Christian posters seemed to have a big issue with the fact that God ordered this sacrifice in the first place. As Kelly1 points out the killing didn't go ahead due to a last minute intervention which makes it ok.

I was just wondering what the response form any of our Christian posters would be if God ordered the sacrifice of one of their own children.

Would you raise the weapon in good conscience or would you be forced to refuse? Be aware that Abraham did not know that God would stop this at the last second so it should be assumed that this intervention cannot be relied upon.

Zombrex · 17-01-2008 2:41pm

Christian posters seemed to have a big issue with the fact that God ordered this sacrifice in the first place

Or that the son, having been bound to the altar, believed he was about to be stabbed to death and set on fire by his father.

That must have been an awkward walk back down to the donkeys.

coffee_cake · 17-01-2008 2:43pm

Popinjay wrote: »

Be aware that Abraham did not know that God would stop this at the last second so it should be assumed that this intervention cannot be relied upon.

But god would never possibly make you really kill your children because everyone knows god is good and that would be bad so either it wouldn't happen or there would be an intervention. of course!

That must have been an awkward walk back down to the donkeys.

JimiTime · 17-01-2008 4:00pm

I think the issue here for most of you is something which i would say is something you all suffer from. Short Sightedness. I'm not trying to be contentious, you'd call it something else, but from my standpoint thats what it is. I think it ties into questions about, why did God not just sart over when adam sinned, or why did God do it this way or that. God sees the bigger picture.
The fact is, from a position of faith, one 'knows' God does things for the best. So for Abraham and Issac, while most likely taken aback by this request, had the faith that Gods will is for the best. Abraham and Issac, although not knowing why this was requested, acted with this faith, and his faith was seen and duly rewarded.

Akrasia · 17-01-2008 5:10pm

JimiTime wrote: »

I think the issue here for most of you is something which i would say is something you all suffer from. Short Sightedness. I'm not trying to be contentious, you'd call it something else, but from my standpoint thats what it is. I think it ties into questions about, why did God not just sart over when adam sinned, or why did God do it this way or that. God sees the bigger picture.
The fact is, from a position of faith, one 'knows' God does things for the best. So for Abraham and Issac, while most likely taken aback by this request, had the faith that Gods will is for the best. Abraham and Issac, although not knowing why this was requested, acted with this faith, and his faith was seen and duly rewarded.

Your answer is that god is always right, therefore everything he does is always right, even if it seems really really wrong, and if if totally contradicts the morality that he tells us to always stick by.

What would have happened to Abraham if he had refused gods request? (I think this is much more interesting a question)

Popinjay · 17-01-2008 5:23pm

JimiTime wrote: »

...for Abraham and Issac, while most likely taken aback by this request, had the faith that Gods will is for the best. Abraham and Issac, although not knowing why this was requested, acted with this faith...

This doesn't actually answer my question though.

If your Lord and God asked you to sacrifice your own child (If you don't have a child you can tell me what your reaction would be if the order had been given to your father) how would you feel? And would you have any qualms about this order being fulfilled to the letter with no last minute reprieve?

BrianCalgary · 17-01-2008 7:50pm

Popinjay wrote: »

This doesn't actually answer my question though.

If your Lord and God asked you to sacrifice your own child (If you don't have a child you can tell me what your reaction would be if the order had been given to your father) how would you feel? And would you have any qualms about this order being fulfilled to the letter with no last minute reprieve?

It is certainly one of the toughest questions to answer. I would like to take the high road and say , yes I would obey God, But I don't know if that is being totally honest, because I don't know if I would. But then again why would God ask me to do such a thing ad it has already been done and the lesson learned and taken.

The question is what lesson can be learned from this episode and how can it apply to my life?

Popinjay · 18-01-2008 10:04am

Thanks for the honesty Brian. The fact that you would like to believe that you could carry out the sacrifice does leave me feelng a little unsettled though.

On the other hand, if I were to look at this from your point of view it does become a slighlty different question. As far as you are concerned, God is all knowing and all loving. This would suggect that his reasons for doing this are ultimately benevolent.

This poses a bit of a problem for me but that's being discussed in the thread I lifted this from anyway.

L'prof · 18-01-2008 10:31am

Personally I couldn't do it!

Besides when was the last time God "spoke" to any of you? I'm sure the most likely scenario is that there's a voice in your head telling you to kill your child that you think is God...in that case you'll avoid any jailtime with an insanity plea

Zombrex · 18-01-2008 11:22am

BrianCalgary wrote: »

The question is what lesson can be learned from this episode and how can it apply to my life?

Obey God, even if he asks you to kill your children, and you will be rewarded?

Akrasia · 18-01-2008 12:25pm

There is also the problem that we supposedly punished by God for giving into the temptation of Satan, and what would stop Satan from impersonating God and telling christians to do terrible things.

Is there some kind of cosmic law that says the devil can not pretend to be God? Do you think Beelzebub never thought of that strategy or that he is too moral to implement it?

Parents go mad and kill their children all the time, it is not a stretch to suggest that at least some of those parents believe they are being ordered to by God.

Pompey Magnus · 18-01-2008 12:58pm

Akrasia wrote: »

Parents go mad and kill their children all the time, it is not a stretch to suggest that at least some of those parents believe they are being ordered to by God.

Ah sure God tells people to do lots of stuff. He told the 9-11 terrorists to fly planes into the twin towers, He told Al-Zarqawi to kill infidels, he told Peter Sutcliff to kill prostitutes, the FBI profile the standard serial killer as having an upsurging of religious belief in the build up to a murder campaign, the Nazi motto was "Gott mit uns" (God is with us). Of course these people don't really hear God, they are mentally ill. Abraham really heard God though because mental illness didn't exist back in antiquity.

BrianCalgary · 18-01-2008 4:34pm

Akrasia wrote: »

There is also the problem that we supposedly punished by God for giving into the temptation of Satan, and what would stop Satan from impersonating God and telling christians to do terrible things. .

There isn't anything to stop Satan from doing what you suggest.

Akrasia wrote: »

Is there some kind of cosmic law that says the devil can not pretend to be God? Do you think Beelzebub never thought of that strategy or that he is too moral to implement it?.

I think he employs that startegy quite often.

That is why we have to know what God has to say about certain actions to be able to discern the difference.

Akrasia wrote: »

Parents go mad and kill their children all the time, it is not a stretch to suggest that at least some of those parents believe they are being ordered to by God.

It's a sad sad world when parents kill their children.

BrianCalgary · 18-01-2008 4:36pm

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

Ah sure God tells people to do lots of stuff. He told the 9-11 terrorists to fly planes into the twin towers, He told Al-Zarqawi to kill infidels, he told Peter Sutcliff to kill prostitutes, the FBI profile the standard serial killer as having an upsurging of religious belief in the build up to a murder campaign, the Nazi motto was "Gott mit uns" (God is with us). Of course these people don't really hear God, they are mentally ill. Abraham really heard God though because mental illness didn't exist back in antiquity.

Depeche mode, I'd suggest that you go and read tye charter with specific reference to rule 3. You are breaking it with regularity and are headed into the realm of consideration for banning.

Come up with intelligence instead of fundamentalist secular postings.

Thanks

BrianCalgary · 18-01-2008 4:48pm

I was thinking about this while lying in bed last night and was trying to get into Abrahams head.

Last October 1 my son had open heart surgery. I tried to compare it to Abraham. On September 30 my wife, son and I drove the three hours to Edmonton for the purpose of putting my son on a operating bed so someone else could take a knife, slice open his chest, saw his sternum in half, and cut open his heart.

On October 1, after a peaceful night at a friends, we rose. My son showered and washed his entire body with a disinfectant soap, I washed his back. All in prepation for getting his chest ripped open.

We then drove the 20 minutes to the hospital, arriving at about 8:00pm for a scheduled 11:30 operation. We sat around until about 12:30 when we got the call to do the final preparations for the procedure (nice word, eh?).

I then kissed his goodbye, with a twang of pain, thinking that this could be the last tiem I see him alive. My wife went into the operating room with him, only one of us allowed. She said her goodbyes and came out as he went into never never land.

We then sat for the next two hours waiting.

Anylising it, I took my son into a place where he could die. But I had something very important and that was faith. Faith in the doctors, faith in God. I knew that my son was in good hands, but he could die. We were told that it was for his own good and his quality of life would be much better, but he could die. We were assured that the doctors he had were the best in teh world at paediatric cardiology, yes, but he could die.

But we had faith, as did Abraham. We trusted the doctors, as Abraham trusted God. We were told, let us cut yoru sons chest open, it'll be OK, Abraham was told, bring yoru son for a sacrifice and it'll be OK.

Well, my son is great, it is as they promised, complete recovery, quality of life better, we trusted and trusted right based on teh past actiond of the medical team. Abraham trusted based on the past actions of God and His promises.

Abraham felt sicjk as he took Isaac up teh mountain, I felt sick as I drove my son to the Edmonton and to teh hospital and saw him for the next 36 hous in ICU. It was not fun.

But I had FAITH.

robindch · 18-01-2008 4:50pm

BrianCalgary wrote: »

It is certainly one of the toughest questions to answer. I would like to take the high road and say , yes I would obey God, But I don't know if that is being totally honest, because I don't know if I would.

Out of interest -- if god did decide to ask you to kill one or more of your children, how could he communicate this to you in a way that you would find the request credible? For example, if you received a message in a dream -- is that convincing? Or would it have to be more than that?

BrianCalgary · 18-01-2008 5:00pm

robindch wrote: »

Out of interest -- if god did decide to ask you to kill one or more of your children, how could he communicate this to you in a way that you would find the request credible? For example, if you received a message in a dream -- is that convincing? Or would it have to be more than that?

I don't know. It's very hypothetical.

Akrasia · 18-01-2008 5:01pm

BrianCalgary wrote: »

I was thinking about this while lying in bed last night and was trying to get into Abrahams head.

Last October 1 my son had open heart surgery. I tried to compare it to Abraham. On September 30 my wife, son and I drove the three hours to Edmonton for the purpose of putting my son on a operating bed so someone else could take a knife, slice open his chest, saw his sternum in half, and cut open his heart.

On October 1, after a peaceful night at a friends, we rose. My son showered and washed his entire body with a disinfectant soap, I washed his back. All in prepation for getting his chest ripped open.

We then drove the 20 minutes to the hospital, arriving at about 8:00pm for a scheduled 11:30 operation. We sat around until about 12:30 when we got the call to do the final preparations for the procedure (nice word, eh?).

I then kissed his goodbye, with a twang of pain, thinking that this could be the last tiem I see him alive. My wife went into the operating room with him, only one of us allowed. She said her goodbyes and came out as he went into never never land.

We then sat for the next two hours waiting.

Anylising it, I took my son into a place where he could die. But I had something very important and that was faith. Faith in the doctors, faith in God. I knew that my son was in good hands, but he could die. We were told that it was for his own good and his quality of life would be much better, but he could die. We were assured that the doctors he had were the best in teh world at paediatric cardiology, yes, but he could die.

But we had faith, as did Abraham. We trusted the doctors, as Abraham trusted God. We were told, let us cut yoru sons chest open, it'll be OK, Abraham was told, bring yoru son for a sacrifice and it'll be OK.

Well, my son is great, it is as they promised, complete recovery, quality of life better, we trusted and trusted right based on teh past actiond of the medical team. Abraham trusted based on the past actions of God and His promises.

Abraham felt sicjk as he took Isaac up teh mountain, I felt sick as I drove my son to the Edmonton and to teh hospital and saw him for the next 36 hous in ICU. It was not fun.

But I had FAITH.

I'm sorry that you and your family had to go through such a terrible ordeal, but there are significant differences between what you did, and what Abraham did.

Firstly, you brought him to the hospital to save his life, not to have him killed.

Secondly, you brought your son to the doctor because of your love for your son, and not because you were ordered to by some higher authority

Thirdly, What you did was fully consistent with all christian morality, What Abraham was asked to do would go against most people's morality.

fourthly, In no way, could your actions be interpreted as a betrayal of your son.

fifthly, Trusting your son to medical surgeons with a very good record of successful operations is a very different matter to trusting your son to instructions given as voices in your head.

A more appropriate comparison would be if you were a Jehovas witness and were bringing your son in to undergo surgery but would not permit the use of blood transfusion even if there was a potentially fatal complication. That is the test of faith that should make even the most devout father question his beliefs.

BrianCalgary · 18-01-2008 5:12pm

Akrasia wrote: »

I'm sorry that you and your family had to go through such a terrible ordeal, but there are significant differences between what you did, and what Abraham did.

Firstly, you brought him to the hospital to save his life, not to have him killed.

Secondly, you brought your son to the doctor because of your love for your son, and not because you were ordered to by some higher authority

Thirdly, What you did was fully consistent with all christian morality, What Abraham was asked to do would go against most people's morality.

fourthly, In no way, could your actions be interpreted as a betrayal of your son.

fifthly, Trusting your son to medical surgeons with a very good record of successful operations is a very different matter to trusting your son to instructions given as voices in your head.

A more appropriate comparison would be if you were a Jehovas witness and were bringing your son in to undergo surgery but would not permit the use of blood transfusion even if there was a potentially fatal complication. That is the test of faith that should make even the most devout father question his beliefs.

I know all of that, the point was to try and get into Abrahams head. The similarities are the trust and faith you are putting into the higher authority, be it God or doctor.

I don't think that Abraham was acting on 'voices in hi shead'. Abraham seems to have had a much more personal relationship with God beyond what we have.

robindch · 18-01-2008 5:26pm

BrianCalgary wrote: »

I don't know. It's very hypothetical.

I don't think it's hypothetical at all -- the OT is full of murder and unpleasantness of one kind and another, and most of it done by people who believe they are acting under god's direct instructions, and those instructions are delivered some way or another. And I'll bet that most christians on this forum believe they receive messages from god regularly, either in response to praying or interpreting events around them as messages or elsehow.

What I'd like to understand is, when it really comes down to the wire, how do christians know that they are communicating with the creator of the universe?

BrianCalgary · 18-01-2008 5:32pm

robindch wrote: »

I don't think it's hypothetical at all -- the OT is full of murder and unpleasantness of one kind and another, and most of it done by people who believe they are acting under god's direct instructions, and those instructions are delivered some way or another. And I'll bet that most christians on this forum believe they receive messages from god regularly, either in response to praying or interpreting events around them as messages or elsehow.

What I'd like to understand is, when it really comes down to the wire, how do christians know that they are communicating with the creator of the universe?

A sheep knows his masters voice.

Zombrex · 18-01-2008 5:36pm

BrianCalgary wrote: »

I know all of that, the point was to try and get into Abrahams head. The similarities are the trust and faith you are putting into the higher authority, be it God or doctor.

I'm not following. You had faith that you son wouldn't die. What did Abraham have faith would or wouldn't happen?

Put it this way, if you were told that in the grand scheme of things it was actually for the best that your son died on that operating table, would you have accepted that willingly?

Zombrex · 18-01-2008 5:38pm

BrianCalgary wrote: »

A sheep knows his masters voice.

That isn't an answer. For a start you aren't a sheep

Akrasia · 18-01-2008 5:52pm

Wicknight wrote: »

That isn't an answer. For a start you aren't a sheep

and for a conclusion, sheep don't usually know their masters voice. Thats why there needs to be a sheepdog.

(sheep aren't the most obedient animals, I never really got why christians like to be called a flock. They are herd animals in that they like to stay together, but other than that, they're pretty dim animals)

robindch · 18-01-2008 6:09pm

BrianCalgary wrote: »

A sheep knows his masters voice.

As the others have pointed out, you are not a sheep and you have not answered the question -- try again?

BrianCalgary · 18-01-2008 10:35pm

Wicknight wrote: »

I'm not following. You had faith that you son wouldn't die. What did Abraham have faith would or wouldn't happen??

Yes. Abraham had faith in God's actions.

Wicknight wrote: »

Put it this way, if you were told that in the grand scheme of things it was actually for the best that your son died on that operating table, would you have accepted that willingly?

Yes, with sadness at missing my son, yet knowing I'd see him again would work just fine.

BrianCalgary · 18-01-2008 10:40pm

robindch wrote: »

As the others have pointed out, you are not a sheep and you have not answered the question -- try again?

I know you guys have huge trouble picking out metaphors, but.... now I'm scared.

I am a sheep and the Lord is my shepherd. To explain it (I honestly don't know why I have to).

Sheep hear the voice of their master, the shepherd and will gladly follow him. The analogy is simple, I am a sheep, Jesus is my shepherd, I know His voice and will willingly follow Him anywhere.

And yes I am part of His flock and yes I will follow Him and yes I am part of a worldwide herd that has great people in it that I can relate to no matter where I am.

So I have answered the question: I know His voice when I hear it.

Zombrex · 18-01-2008 11:09pm

BrianCalgary wrote: »

So I have answered the question: I know His voice when I hear it.

Well, as has been point out, that isn't an answer.

You were asked how do you know your "masters" voice and you have basically answered you know your masters voice.

With no frame of reference how do you determine that you are actually talking to God?

Or to put it another way, how would you, theoretically, determine that communication you are receiving isn't God

While you think this is just average Atheist arguing for the sake of it, it is actually at the core of the fundamental issue with religion, the belief held by the believer that their actions are personally approved by God himself (ie cannot be wrong)

I doubt you will ever find yourself behind the stick of Boeing 767 heading for a large urban centre, but can you at least appreciate why it such believe that you personally communicate with God unnerves people.

BrianCalgary · 18-01-2008 11:13pm

Wicknight wrote: »

Well, as has been point out, that isn't an answer.

You were asked how do you know your "masters" voice and you have basically answered you know your masters voice.

With no frame of reference how do you determine that you are actually talking to God?

While you think this is just average Atheist arguing for the sake of it, it is actually at the core of the fundamental issue with religion, the belief held by the believer that their actions are personally approved by God himself (ie cannot be wrong)

I doubt you will ever find yourself behind the stick of Boeing 767 heading for a large urban centre, but can you at least appreciate why it such believe that you personally communicate with God unnerves people.

It is an asnwer and a very valid one. I can't help it if you don't get it.

To answer your question regarding the exploding of dynamite. Such an act would not be consisitent with the teachings of Christ, so it would be very obvious to know that a message like that didn't come from God.

As a christian we are to put on (careful now, metaphor coming.

) the armour of God, being scripture so that we can test every spirit against the word of God.

And no I can't understand why it would unnerve people. To have chats with the creator of the universe who knows best for me, why wouldn't I listen to him.

Zombrex · 19-01-2008 12:50am

BrianCalgary wrote: »

It is an asnwer and a very valid one. I can't help it if you don't get it.

Well it may be an answer, I'm not sure I would call it a valid one. It is simply a metaphorical way of saying "I just know"

BrianCalgary wrote: »

To answer your question regarding the exploding of dynamite. Such an act would not be consisitent with the teachings of Christ, so it would be very obvious to know that a message like that didn't come from God.

Well one would think that bring your child up a mountain to kill him wouldn't be "consistent" with the teaching of Christ/God either.

Which is kinda the point in the first place.

BrianCalgary wrote: »

To have chats with the creator of the universe who knows best for me, why wouldn't I listen to him.

Well because he could be telling you to fly a plane into a building. Or sacrifice your second born child.

I hope that if "he" did you wouldn't. But TBH that is more hope that anything else. Conversations like this don't fill me with a whole lot of confidence.

robindch · 19-01-2008 2:55am

BrianCalgary wrote: »

I know you guys have huge trouble picking out metaphors, but.... now I'm scared.

You shouldn't be. We're just much better than you guys are at spotting a metaphor being used to paper over a crack

BrianCalgary wrote: »

I am a sheep and the Lord is my shepherd. To explain it (I honestly don't know why I have to). I know His voice when I hear it.

You're really missing the point here by a thousand miles. We understand exactly what the metaphor means, but we'd like to know how this happens in practice -- no metaphor, just a simple description of what happens when you receive a message from god.

Do you hear a voice speaking in your head? Do you suddenly think of an unexpected idea? Do you hear a disembodied voice? Do you start writing without conscious control? Do you open the bible at random and put your finger on a phrase that turns out to have a special meaning? Something else?

Abraham's Sacrifice

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