Commissioner Callinan resigns with immediate effect

sopretty wrote: »

How would you like to see AGS progressing in the future?
I understand that autonomy is required, so that they can be seen to be independent. That poses problems with accountability.

I would like, initially, to have more of a correspondence with the general public. A forum where the good work that gets carried out can be made available to the public. Maybe a section on the Garda website that outlines all the good work which otherwise goes unnoticed.

sopretty wrote: »

The secrecy required to carry out investigations etc. requires an enormous level of trust being put in serving members.
Whistle-blowing is seen as disgusting.

Yes, there is an enormous level of trust, and trust which, in my opinion, is rightly given. As i keep saying in many threads on this forum, we are not all corrupt. And as pointed out above, there is no forum for people to see the good work we do, only when high-profile cases make it to the media. How can someone trust AGS if they can't see the good work that's being done? I myself get praise (albeit very occasionally from management) for the manner in which i carry out my duties (i may be one of the most photographed Gardaí as i never have an issue posing for a photo - it's excellent PR work imo).

sopretty wrote: »

There seems to be a culture of loyalty above honesty.

There is a culture of loyalty. We work shoulder to shoulder every day and rely on the colleagues beside, behind and in front of us. But within that loyalty, there is an understanding that in order to be loyal, we have to be honest and not put each other in a situation where we may have to decide between one or the other. I can state quite clearly that i have never been put in that position, and that if people think i am being loyal over honest, then they are wrong. My life is not worth a prisoner sentence over covering up for someones idiotic mistakes, or their need to asset themselves with violence. Everything my colleagues and I do is legal, and we can honestly stand behind our loyalty, because we don't have to lie for each other. This kind of behaviour, loyalty and honesty together, is far more common than what the public perceive.

sopretty wrote: »

There is a sense of having to tow the line or else.

Every new member wants to fit in. You have to work with these people day in and day out, and are the only people you can genuinely rely on in violent situations. Some may seem to think you need to turn a blind eye to misdemeanors, but the truthful story is that in every situation i've been in, i've never had to tow the line, my colleagues don't put me in that situation, nor do they put any new members in that situation. And anyone that does, before anything severe happens (and what i mean is saying something in the wrong tone or in a manner likely to be taken out of context), is taken aside and spoken to. It doesn't happen again, and i've never been witness to anything which would promote gross misconduct, corruption, or anything else.

sopretty wrote: »

I cannot see how any young guard, or indeed any principled long serving guard, could not end up either being moulded to conform to the current culture, or else end up burning out.

It is hard, but it's only with the support and understanding of your colleagues that it can work. See a trend starting to appear?

sopretty wrote: »

While certainly GSOC is required for reports of wrongdoing on behalf of gardai, there also needs to be some sort of independent body and process for gardai to air their own grievances.
Would you welcome an Independent Oversight Committee?
Would you welcome reform in the culture?
How would you propose such a thing could come about?

Yes, and independent oversight committee is needed. We need to remove politics from the force, and it is wide open to misconduct, corruption, etc. Politics have no place in the security of the nation, and an IOC would (hopefully) prevent that. While it would be necessary to have a Commissioner who has gone up through the ranks, it should also be assigned on merit over anything else. The culture is not what the media and public believe it to be. As i said above, there is a sense of loyalty, because in the end it is us against them (ie: Gardaí against the criminals) and they have more protection from the state than we do. And such a thing might come about very soon, and i will most definitely be voting for it.

sopretty wrote: »

It is in ALL of our best interests to regain trust in AGS and the system, both for gardai and the public.

What would restore your morale? Certainly, pay-cuts must be a huge disincentive. I myself am not going to put my heart and soul into a job which pays a pittance.

Restore morale? That will take a lot. Personally, i would require confidence from our management, increased numbers in a time when it is critically low, better personal protection equipment, better protection from civil cases against us for carrying out our duties legally, support from management, purpose built cars. Simple enough ideas that should be the norm. Money, well i wouldn't say no to getting back all that has been taken off me in the last few years. I don't even want more pay, but what i am entitled to before all these cuts. It's a well paid job, if you don't have loans/a mortgage, but very few don't. We are like everyone else, we are feeling the crunch and are constantly a target for more cuts. And many people can be heard say that they wouldn't do it for the money we get. I wouldn't blame them. I wanted to do my part for my country, and it was either the Army or the Gardaí (i'm not a "Tiocfaidh ár lá" guy, just wanted to do my bit). I picked the Gardaí as i believed it would afford me more freedom. I was wrong.

sopretty wrote: »

I'd love to see things overhauled. It is undeniable that there are some brilliant and dedicated gardai, equally, I have unfortunately seen first hand, the dishonesty and collusion and mentality of ass-covering involved.
If we could have more of the former and less of the latter, we'd be sorted.

Thank you for recognising that there are good Gardaí, and i appreciate that there are bad ones. But with the way accountability has gone, you are indeed going to get more of the former and less of the latter. But it will take time, and some new procedures.

AGS is literally a very large family. You have your immediate family, ie: those you are stationed with (can be small or large, depending on your station). You would literally do anything for them, within the limit of the law, and they would do the same for you, as if they were your brothers and sisters. Then you have your extended family, or cousins if you will, and that would be the rest of the force. Some you could count as your immediate family, others are distant relatives. You would do more for your immediate family than you would your distant relatives. And then you've the likes of Callinan and Co. who are the uncles and aunts you never liked.

Potential-Monke wrote: »

And then you've the likes of Callinan and Co. who are the uncles and aunts you never liked.

LOL I hear you, I think I'd like my aunty Noirín though.

Potential-Monke for commissioner

I'd run for it, but i'd probably end up punching Shatter...

Larbre34 wrote: »

This is shambolic, any senior public servants that dont leave before August face pension benefit reductions, Callinan now has 41 years so will depart with the max lump sum and benefits, all he needed was an excuse to leave early, now he can throw the grenade over his shoulder and not look back.

DC Noirin O'Sullivan for first lady boss chief?

He said something stupid and had to go. Would have been nice of him to apologise for it rather than leave the minister to do so on his own, would actually make him look better and wouldn't affect his benefits. As for retiring, he should be followed by Shatter, to be fair, given that he is pretty much totally incompetent.

If Callinan had done 41 years then he has 1 year more than the maximum for his lump sum. Even if someone is sacked for gross misconduct they shouldn't forfeit what's been earned up to that time, just future earnings. Given that pension contributions are directly proportional to the wage earned and that you have to serve minimum terms at a given wage before being allowed retire at that rate, I think the lump sums are fair enough.

As regards recent developments, I don't think it's possible to overstate the importance of the fact that it appears the government is using a non-issue (the idea that calls to Garda Stations were recorded) to smokescreen to whole thing, to try and further implicate Callinan probably moreso than he deserves, in an effort to bury the issue with his resignation, pacify the public and save Shatter's arse.

Dick move by the government, and normally I'd advocate voting elsewhere in the locals. Problem is, where the hell does one turn to when all four main parties are so utterly incompetent?

bubblypop wrote: »

there needs to be an independent Garda authority set up.
they can oversee all the promotions and take them away from the political appointments they are currently.

AGS needs to be independent, they should not be too close to a government.

the Garda Authority ( or whatever you want to call it ) should also be there to recommend any improvements or changes to internal Garda policy.


they should also be responsible for looking after the Gardai, get whatever is needed to allow them to do their job properly.
equip the force correctly.

they can bring all these issues to government on behalf of AGS.

one problem (especially with Martin Callinan ) is that the commissioner is a government appointed position and as such, seems to side more with the minister for justice.


this independent authority should also have the ability to investigate complaints by Gardai, which GSOC cannot.

although, tbh, no matter what they do, or who is appointed anywhere, there will still believe that AGS is a corrupt organisation. they will still complain and find the slightest little thing that they dont agree with to put AGS down.

instead of appreciating the good honest members of AGS.

i woul have no problem with all you propose, but you don`t seem to realise that the impression the general public have of AGS come from the the MorrisTribunal, Smithwicks, (the findings ofwhich the head of AGS, Callinan, said he did not accept and would never accept), and nothing has apparently changed, with now penalty points, GSOC and phone calls bugged.
In fairness it`s not difficult to understand that the public now look on AGS as a force out of control, with a culture of protecting their own at all costs.
While all you propose is commendable, I`m afraid unless the public see a sea-change in the present percieved culture within AGS, unfortunately the present cynicism isn`t going away anytime soon.

Potential-Monke wrote: »

And we (ie: frontline members) understand that. We just want the public to understand that the majority of members have no involvement in this. We go to work, do our job and hope to get home safe.

Prove it , We have been listening to 'the majority of members' for years, The fact is the majority of members may be as you say but they were not ignorant of what was going on and choose loyalty to the force rather than uphold their duty to the nation.

Start standing up for us and start speaking out and you might start to have some credibility

marienbad wrote: »

Start standing up for us and start speaking out and you might start to have some credibility

I have nothing to speak out about. As i said, nothing like what is in the media goes on where i'm stationed. If it did, i would speak up, but as it stands i am not witness to anything so there is nothing i can do.

marienbad wrote: »

Good for you then, no taking a peek on Pulse to check out a neighbour or former boy/girlfriend ? No checking out a potential employee for a local businessman. No fixing the odd penalty points

And no knowledge of anyone else doing it either ? Might I ask how long are you in the force- 5 minutes ?

No, no and no. I use pulse when it's work related, I would never give information about someone to a third party (Data Protection Act, kinda a big deal), and i can't "fix" penalty points - they're put on by a completely separate organisation!

And Pulse gets checked by thousands of members per day, want to me stop and question each of them to see what they're doing? And 6 years is the answer. Is it that hard to believe that the scandal is not as widespread as the media make it out to be?

Actually, don't bother answering, you've your mind made up and nothing will change it.

Potential-Monke wrote: »

No, no and no. I use pulse when it's work related, I would never give information about someone to a third party (Data Protection Act, kinda a big deal), and i can't "fix" penalty points - they're put on by a completely separate organisation!

And Pulse gets checked by thousands of members per day, want to me stop and question each of them to see what they're doing? And 6 years is the answer. Is it that hard to believe that the scandal is not as widespread as the media make it out to be?

Actually, don't bother answering, you've your mind made up and nothing will change it.

Fair play to you P.M. for putting the case for the majority, who leave home, work, and go home. Never mind the begrudgers.

Potential-Monke wrote: »

No, no and no. I use pulse when it's work related, I would never give information about someone to a third party (Data Protection Act, kinda a big deal), and i can't "fix" penalty points - they're put on by a completely separate organisation!

And Pulse gets checked by thousands of members per day, want to me stop and question each of them to see what they're doing? And 6 years is the answer. Is it that hard to believe that the scandal is not as widespread as the media make it out to be?

Actually, don't bother answering, you've your mind made up and nothing will change it.

As you have made you mind up I for the sake of the rest of us I hope something will change it.

Don't you get that it is really isn't up to you to tell us how good you are or dedicated you are ? We have been hearing that year after year as the force has lurched from cover up to crisis to cover up and so we are where we are.

AGs have lost the confidence of citizens and only AGS can regain it , and no poor me will cut it. If you don't see that then ye really are an inward looking organisation.

As for me making up my mind , when you start loosing the older demographic you really should stop and think .

marienbad wrote: »

.

Gardai either did it or had someone do it or knew it was being done.

Stop the smart arse comments, what is the relevance of what I know ? AGS were fixing points on an industrial scale - what more do I need to know

You're coming on here making wild allegations so I just though I should highlight the fact that you're doing it from a position of ignorance.

There's plenty wrong in AGS, and in many ways it's a dysfunctional organisation, but misplaced criticism is polarizing and probably counter-productive.
You're sniping at a member of AGS over flaws in a system which that member has no dealings with or control over.

Here's the problem with the PP system and AGS:
Govt elected by us legislated that PP system be put in place. Free up courts yadda yadda..
In a typical Irish solution they allowed a system where points wrongly-assigned could be removed from the system. No point in putting in a system that doesn't have a loophole, eh? You'd never know when that might come in handy.
As a safeguard they gave control over removal of points to ranks of Superintendent (or Inspector acting on their behalf) and above. Those ranks are all, every last one of them, political appointments. No possibility of abuse there, so there isn't. No sir!

It's absolutely SFA to do with rank and file gardai other than as a stick to beat them with. Politicians and legislators take no blame and the media quite deliberately run misleading headlines to make people think that your average garda was writing off points when that wasn't even possible.

So snipe away, but you should know that you've the wrong target in your sights.

Dermot Illogical wrote: »

You're coming on here making wild allegations so I just though I should highlight the fact that you're doing it from a position of ignorance.

There's plenty wrong in AGS, and in many ways it's a dysfunctional organisation, but misplaced criticism is polarizing and probably counter-productive.
You're sniping at a member of AGS over flaws in a system which that member has no dealings with or control over.

Here's the problem with the PP system and AGS:
Govt elected by us legislated that PP system be put in place. Free up courts yadda yadda..
In a typical Irish solution they allowed a system where points wrongly-assigned could be removed from the system. No point in putting in a system that doesn't have a loophole, eh? You'd never know when that might come in handy.
As a safeguard they gave control over removal of points to ranks of Superintendent (or Inspector acting on their behalf) and above. Those ranks are all, every last one of them, political appointments. No possibility of abuse there, so there isn't. No sir!

It's absolutely SFA to do with rank and file gardai other than as a stick to beat them with. Politicians and legislators take no blame and the media quite deliberately run misleading headlines to make people think that your average garda was writing off points when that wasn't even possible.

So snipe away, but you should know that you've the wrong target in your sights.

There is no one denying that fish rots from the head or the the higher levels bear the greater responsiblity but all members of the force create the culture of the organisation and that culture was not hospitable to those whistleblowers


and until rank and file stand up to that nothing will change , lets stop blaming everybody else and take our own share of responsibility no matter how little that is.