Over 1,200 licensed guns stolen in five years

Heckler · 15-12-2008 12:37am

metman wrote: »

I take it you're a news of the world reader? You should know better.

As for copping yourself on, hilarious pun. Genius. Though more Sun, than News of the World, another one of your literary dailys no doubt.

Nope. I don't read any of the red tops. I'm just sick and tired of the misinformation out there regarding legally held firearms. And "cop yourself on" was not intended as pun. The lumping in of criminals with owners of legally held firearms is sickening. To own a firearm you have to be cleared by a superintendant as to your suitability. If thats not good enough we might as well just chuck it all in.

When will people get it into their heads that criminals do not use licenced guns ? I swear its like talking to a brick wall sometimes. If someone breaks into your house, robs your car keys, joyrides and kills someone should we ban cars ? Should all car keys be kept in a safe ? More people are killed every year by people driving stolen cars than by people using stolen firearms.

And don't go down the road of saying guns have only one purpose and cars are different. Maybe day one guns were invented to kill people but guess what ? Times change. Nowadays guns can be used for nothing more harmful than putting holes in paper.

Rew · 15-12-2008 12:42am

Theres a good article in the Irish Times yesterday actually:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2008/1213/1229035646029.html

And one from a few months back:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/features/2008/0613/1213262331226.html

Heckler · 15-12-2008 12:44am

dredre wrote: »

Ok so all the legally held firearms which are stolen each year are never used in any crime... What are they being taken for? Decorations in pubs?

Many gun crimes never have the weapon identified. In fact many times it is never discharged and so cannot be traced. This does not mean the weapons are not being used in the commission of crimes.

I do not see any need for someone whose hobby is shooting to actually own or store a gun. Certainly not a handgun. If this is inconvenient, well to be honest, that's just tough.

More people have been assaulted and robbed with hammers, golf clubs and syringes than with firearms. Should we ban carpentry, golf and doctoring ? Would that be considered an Inconvenience ? Will we consider that just tough ?

dredre · 15-12-2008 12:46am

heckler added to ignore list (if only there was a muppet list as well)

guns are different, but some people can't see that

Rew · 15-12-2008 12:48am

dredre wrote: »

heckler added to ignore list (if only there was a muppet list as well)

guns are different, but some people can't see that

Wow, that kind of sums up the situation actually. We will ban them all and hope they will go away. In reality we have done nothing but put our fingers in our ears and gun crime is going to get worse and worse.

Heckler · 15-12-2008 12:52am

dredre wrote: »

heckler added to ignore list (if only there was a muppet list as well)

guns are different, but some people can't see that

You have got to be kidding me. Because someone disagrees with you you put them on ignore. And then you insult them by calling them a muppet ? Well done Dredre. Your threads must be a lonely place....

Boards.ie while not a complete democracy is still a place of debate and opinion. To "ignore" someone who disagrees with you is beyond sad.

The more closeminded people like you put me on "ignore" the better tbh.

Not that you will see this post.....

TheNog · 15-12-2008 1:02am

Rew wrote: »

Its seems shooters are the only ones who want something actually done about gun crime.

Rew I will not tolerate any type of inflamatory comment like this one above. I find this comment quite offensive really. You have been warned.

Trojan911 wrote: »

That's rich.

Hmmm, let me see. Ok, once I've signed out my firearm from the nice policeman, where will I go to shoot some people. :rolleyes:

Trojan911 wrote: »

Of course it is, silly me............

Trojan911 wrote: »

Oi, what's wrong with the News 'n' Screws then....... DM & EK canteen tables were littered with them & the Current Bun.

Hot digety, we used to start our ET under Marble Arch in the IRV with a Benjys breakfast roll, coffee and a copy of the News 'n' Screws on a Sunday morning. We moved for nothing until at least page 19.

Trojan warning for you too for off topic posts none of which contribute in anyway to this discussion.

All

Keep this thread nice. People will have different views on a topic (as displayed here) so there is no need for anyone to get the feathers up or I will close this thread.

Nog

Heckler · 15-12-2008 1:16am

I reckon Dredres feathers are up. It's worse to "ignore" someone on a discussion board than to post offensive or offtopic comments.Especially when I posted nothing offensive or personal. Only a difference of opinion. Dredre should get a temporary ban. If everyone carried on like that Boards would be dead in a week.

I expect the thread will be locked for going offtopic and I apologise if I added to it. I just couldn't let Dredres action go unmentioned. Its an emotive issue on all sides.

TheNog · 15-12-2008 1:21am

Heckler wrote: »

Dredre should get a temporary ban.

Infraction given for back seat modding

Heckler wrote: »

If everyone carried on like that Boards would be dead in a week.

It is up to Dredre who he/she wishes to add to their ignore list, not you or me

Nog

TheNog · 15-12-2008 1:27am

dredre wrote: »

heckler added to ignore list (if only there was a muppet list as well)

guns are different, but some people can't see that

Warning to Dredre for the above comment. No more abusive post please or I will be handing out infractions.

metman · 15-12-2008 1:32am

What many of our 'new contributors' to the ES forum seem to be forgetting, is that many of the posters here on ES are the ones cleaning up the mess when someone gets shot. Its all well and good shooting little holes in your little paper targets, but some of us see the reality of shootings and the carnage involved. Some of us have also had firearms pointed at us and even fired at us in the course of our work, so yes you're damn right its an emotive issue.

CLADA · 15-12-2008 1:32am

I've never held a firearms certificate and doubt I ever will, I do however have a lot of firearms experience, The minister for justice pays me to go to the range (god bless him:D).

I have a lot of sympathy for all those people who have invested money and time in the pursuit of their sport, and are now facing into a handgun ban . I've been to Courtlough, the midlands range and Athy and I've seen how well run and strict they are on handling and safety. I also have a friend who has an alarmed safe but strips the weapon and hides the barrel and slide elsewhere. So I'm well aware of how security conscious (and paranoid:)) most handgun owners are.

I personally don't think a handgun ban will reduce gun crime, over the years I've come across many handguns namely Taurus, S&W, Glock, none of them were stolen from individuals who had them licenced, and I'm talking about the last six years in particular.

Other than what I've read on boards I'm not that aware of a major campaign against the ban, it's obvious from this and the shooting forum that people are passionate about the sport, but the opposition to the ban doesn't seem to have become a very public campaign. Unless it steps up a few gears I fear in the near future the nearest thing many of you will get to firing a handgun will be on an xbox or playstation.

dredre · 15-12-2008 1:32am

sorry if it was offensive, i just find it silly that someone suggests banning golf clubs, hammers and syringes. as i said guns are different.

syringes are necessary and save far far more lives than they take.

i'm not aware that golf clubs, hammers or syringes have killed more people than guns but perhaps i will be proved wrong here. i await the evidence. perhaps more people have been robbed or attacked, but I think the point with guns is that when used they are far more likely to kill or seriously injure than a golf club or syringe or hammer.

additionally guns are not a necessity outside of police or military. hammers and syringes are necessary tools. golf clubs... well don't get me started on that game!

Rew · 15-12-2008 1:49am

I dont forget it for a second like I said ealier i know people who have been either shot or shot and killed. Its not something any shooter I have talked with or shot with takes lightly. Some of my loved ones are those in the line of fire but in reality they are alot more likely to be seriously assaulted or stabbed then shot. A good example is the two guys who wnet away for assulting Gardai and one of them did it while on bail for assaulting another Garda. They got very littly time for that in the grand scheme of things (7 years off the top of my head?).

But the point we all try to make is that bans on legal gones don't prevent that we have a situation here where there are so many illegale guns that a 16 year old can get one. Criminals have burnt pistols in cars after crimes so there obvioulsy considered expendable items. Criminals are importing fully automatic handguns, sub machine guns and rifles. We have had a ban on everthyng about .22 here for 30 years that was only lifted in 2004. The paramilitaries had no problems getting thei hands on everything up to RPG's and anti-aircraft missiles in that time.

We have a minister for justice who is spending more time talking about legal guns then illegale guns. Also he's not actually banning handguns. Ill keep my licence under his new laws but no new handgun licences will be issued. He's doing nothing about secure storage for other guns. Sawn off shotguns are very prevelent here and thats where the stolen guns are really coing in to play.

Rew · 15-12-2008 1:56am

dredre wrote: »

additionally guns are not a necessity outside of police or military. hammers and syringes are necessary tools. golf clubs... well don't get me started on that game!

The airport use guns to keep planes safe (from birds), farmers use them as part of their busniess every day, colite use them to cull deer etc. thier tools as much as anything else. Licencing is worth ~6m (off the top of my head) or so to the Gov then add the VAT on sales of ammo and guns etc. The licence fee is to go up and I belive it will be woth 20m a year soon. There are licences 220,000 and about 190,000 licenced indvidules. There are 1800 handguns, 1200 stolen guns in 5 years 27 of which were handguns. The break down of the 27 would be very interesitng but isnt available because the defiinition would include blank firers, air pistols, deactivaed guns, licened hand guns, garda guns and army guns.

The DoJ has spent millions of euro trying to deny licneces to people even though they knew the courts would side with the person requesting the licence.

We have some of if the the tighest laws in Europe on guns. Our definition of a firearm is much wider then the UK and other countries. Firearms law has been revised 3 times in the last 3 years and tightened each time.

There have been 20 gun murders this year I dont have the figures for other violent deaths but someone else may be able to oblige.

Manic Moran · 15-12-2008 1:57am

Some of us have also had firearms pointed at us and even fired at us in the course of our work, so yes you're damn right its an emotive issue.

Some of us on the pro-shooter side have also been on a two-way firing range. Somehow my emotions as regards firearms still seem to be different to yours.

NTM

Heckler · 15-12-2008 1:57am

metman wrote: »

What many of our 'new contributors' to the ES forum seem to be forgetting, is that many of the posters here on ES are the ones cleaning up the mess when someone gets shot. Its all well and good shooting little holes in your little paper targets, but some of us see the reality of shootings and the carnage involved. Some of us have also had firearms pointed at us and even fired at us in the course of our work, so yes you're damn right its an emotive issue.

Your use of the terms 'new contributors' and "little paper targets" is both derogatory and belittling to me and many other sporting firearm enthusiasts. So because I havent posted on the ES forum much before my posts are less valid than yours ? You'll be calling me "noob" next. It is all well and good shooting "little" holes in "little" paper targets. Whats wrong with that ? I don't go on golf forums saying "its all well and good ye putting yer little Balls in to little holes, But whats the point in it ?". See how it reads ? Don't try to defend it, you meant it to be belittling and you are trying to say that it is a pointless activity. To you it may be but to many thousands it isn't.

I might as well say its all well and good you carving that turkey for christmas but Its me who has to go clean up the carnage after someone gets stabbed. Which I'd say is a far more regular occurance.

I appreciate everything all members of our ES do day in and day out but your job is not going to be improved even slightly by banning legally held firearms.

metman · 15-12-2008 1:59am

Manic Moran wrote: »

Somehow my emotions as regards firearms still seem to be different to yours.

NTM

Imagine. Two people and two different opinions.

Maybe you're just double 'ard? :eek:

Satan Polaroid · 15-12-2008 2:11am

Excellent thread lads, well done. There's even some mod-on-mod action!

Rew and Heckler, can you not see our concern regarding firearms getting into the wrong hands? Sure they can still get them, but I'm in favour of making it as difficult as possible.

Rew wrote: »

As I said just because the Gardai dont operate the law peopely is not a good reason to ban soimething.

I think it is an excellent reason to ban guns. It should be banned until the law is changed so as it can be implemented properly. I don't believe it is possible to operate the law effectively in its current form.

Rew · 15-12-2008 2:16am

Satan Polaroid wrote: »

Excellent thread lads, well done. There's even some mod-on-mod action!

Rew and Heckler, can you not see our concern regarding firearms getting into the wrong hands? Sure they can still get them, but I'm in favour making it as difficult as possible.

I think it is an excellent reason to ban guns. It should be banned until the law is changed so as it can be implemented properly. I don't believe it is possible to operate the law effectively in its current form.

I would argue it doesnt make it any more difficult, look at the paramilitaries for the last 30 years. Also the UK banned handguns and their gun crime is up 700%.

It wouldn't take much to sort out the licencing system. The laws are in place they just need to be enforced. The shooters pay for the system already so its not costing non-shooters tax money. In fact if the Gardai entered in to public private partnerships with the ranges/clubs they could benifit from having shooting ranges that they lack at the moment. They would be shooting side by side with the public and a pretty decent relationship could be formed.

TheNog · 15-12-2008 2:19am

Heckler wrote: »

I appreciate everything all members of our ES do day in and day out but your job is not going to be improved even slightly by banning legally held firearms.

Ok let me again make this a little clearer to all:

Everyone posting here is against the ban of handguns!!!!!!!

One poster back in post 7 agreed with the ban and thats all I could see. No is supporting the ban but some including myself were putting forward ideas to circumvent the need for a ban and some are trying to understand why ye feel the need to have your handguns kept in your home.

Satan Polaroid · 15-12-2008 2:23am

Rew wrote: »

I would argue it doesnt make it any more difficult, look at the paramilitaries for the last 30 years. Also the UK banned handguns and their gun crime is up 700%.

It wouldn't take much to sort out the licencing system. The laws are in place they just need to be enforced. The shooters pay for the system already so its not costing non-shooters tax money. In fact if the Gardai entered in to public private partnerships with the ranges/clubs they could benifit from having shooting ranges that they lack at the moment. They would be shooting side by side with the public and a pretty decent relationship could be formed.

Paramilitaries are large organisations that wield much power and influence. A lot have to go abroad to get their weapons, and often buy en masse. Your common house hold burglar can't do this. Guns stored in houses can lead to said guns getting in the hands of your more common criminal. And this would be very worrying.

I agree it wouldn't take much to sort out the licensing system, but it still needs to be changed. You have good knowledge of firearms licensing, do you believe it to be secure in it's current format?

Rew · 15-12-2008 2:25am

I have the CSO stats for crimes involving firearms between 2003 and 2007. the trend is upward but linear, no spike after 2004. Same for murder/manslaughter.

Heckler · 15-12-2008 2:29am

Satan Polaroid wrote: »

Paramilitaries are large organisations that wield much power and influence. A lot have to go abroad to get their weapons, and often buy en masse. Your common house hold burglar can't do this. Guns stored in houses can lead to said guns getting in the hands of your more common criminal. And this would be very worrying.

I agree it wouldn't take much to sort out the licensing system, but it still needs to be changed. You have good knowledge of firearms licensing, do you believe it to be secure in it's current format?

Round and round we go.

Someone please show me statistics where legally held firearms were stolen and used in the comission of a crime.

Heckler · 15-12-2008 2:36am

TheNog wrote: »

Ok let me again make this a little clearer to all:

Everyone posting here is against the ban of handguns!!!!!!!

One poster back in post 7 agreed with the ban and thats all I could see. No is supporting the ban but some including myself were putting forward ideas to circumvent the need for a ban and some are trying to understand why ye feel the need to have your handguns kept in your home.

When I first applied for my licence I hoped the rifle club I joined did store firearms because it would have saved me the expense of a gunsafe and a monitored alarm. But they don't. And my local garda station doesn't either. I don't sit at home playing with my gun. It comes out of the safe on a sunday morning, I go to the range and put "little" holes in "little" paper targets for a while, then it goes back in the safe for another week.

Noone has a "need" to have a handgun in their house but if they do in fact own a handgun there is nowhere else to keep it. Which is why handgun owners have sometimes 2 or 3 safes (one for the pistol, one for the slide and maybe one for the ammunition) as well as a 24hour monitored alarm system.

Some people also have trigger locks on their guns as an added security mesure. Not because they have to but because they are responsible gun owners.

Satan Polaroid · 15-12-2008 2:39am

Heckler wrote: »

Round and round we go.

Someone please show me statistics where legally held firearms were stolen and used in the comission of a crime.

Why do you think Firearms are stolen? Isn't the fact that they have been stolen worrying enough?

Rew · 15-12-2008 2:44am

Satan Polaroid wrote: »

Paramilitaries are large organisations that wield much power and influence. A lot have to go abroad to get their weapons, and often buy en masse. Your common house hold burglar can't do this. Guns stored in houses can lead to said guns getting in the hands of your more common criminal. And this would be very worrying.

The drug gangs are importing on mass by the looks of it, look at those ~50 firearms in one drugs haul a few months back. We have 16yr old who had no problems getting one and using it to tragic effect recently.

I agree it wouldn't take much to sort out the licensing system, but it still needs to be changed. You have good knowledge of firearms licensing, do you believe it to be secure in it's current format?

Funnily enough hand guns yes because alot of effort goes in to getting one. Most people (i say most because some supers just granted them with no conditions) had inspectiosn from a CPO and have at least one gun safe, monitored alarm, 24h zone on the safe etc. Its not going to get stolen in a crime of opertunity (random break in) because your going to need an angle grider to open the safe. From what I have read in the press a handgun is €200 on the black market. Is it really worth their while tracking down a licned owner and stealing that gun or forking out 200 quid?

On the other hand there are thousands of guns out there that arn't secured in a safe at all and they are the worrying ones. Someone breaks in steal what they can and they get a gun.

Now the commissioner has said that there are gangs going around looking for hunting dogs in the garden and breaking to houses for the shotguns but I think those people fall in to the catagory of no gun safe anyway.

I dont belive we can prevent thefts 100% purely because there is no way to stop a determeined criminal. People have said store them in the station and sign them in and out but someone could be forced to do that easily.

The theft rate ATM is 0.1% per year (probably less considering that includes airguns, deacts, blank firing, etc). Simply requireing a safe would cut that drastically and getting in the unused/no reason to have guns would also cut it.

If we ban the guns were just letting the criminals run our lives. Its like not going outside because you might get hit by a car or not flying because the plane might crash.

To say something really controversial: All the people who take drugs in this country are the ones with blood on their hands. They fuel the murder and carnage. I don't and I have the test docs to prove it (im in the RDF so get tested randomly).

Satan Polaroid · 15-12-2008 2:55am

Thanks for the reply Rew, and it is a good one at that. One I cannot disagree with.

That's the crux of the issue. 1,200 licensed firearms stolen in 5 years. Not whether they are used crimes or killings or whatever.

They're are stolen and unaccounted for. The fact they are stolen obviously shows they're in the hands of criminals.

It's the gun licensing laws that need to be tightened. These should include storage, safety and a regular mental assessment.

Rew · 15-12-2008 3:05am

Satan Polaroid wrote: »

It's the gun licensing laws that need to be tightened. These should include storage, safety and a regular mental assessment.

All those are in the current legislation, like I said we have extreamly tight laws but the people that matter don't seem to know that!

That 1200 is a false figure as well it includes things defined as firearms that cann't be used to harm a living thing. It would inlclude things reported lost or stolen that may later tun up etc. We dont have any kind of real break down of the figures to get a good idea of whats what. I do know that when asked how many were used in crimes the minister said that th figure wasn't tracked and that a dissproportionate amount of Garda resources would be needed to come up with that figure.

Manic Moran · 15-12-2008 3:18am

Maybe you're just double 'ard?

Maybe.

NTM

Over 1,200 licensed guns stolen in five years

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