Funding Priorities - Road -v- Rail (split)

DerekP11 · 22-07-2006 8:26pm

This thread is a long oul read with lots of OTs, but enjoyable all the same.

Going back to the funding of Roads Vs Public Transport. Ive already made the point that the road network is bigger and will always demand a bigger budget.(Sorry Slice) I also said that more efficient planning and project management within public transport is desirable and the current lack of it (through political interference) is a serious obstacle to its successful role within Irish society.

Now Im going to through in another hand grenade to the debate.

We actively blame the Government for all our public transport woes. (nothing wrong with that) But what about Irish people themselves? How much have we contributed to the growing traffic gridlock?

In Celtic Tiger (Maverick Pussycat) Ireland, the new status symbols are cars and houses. In our quest to achieve these items we drive up house prices, forcing the extension of "affordable" property to outlying towns, miles from cities (place of work) and without suitable forms of public transport or any other form of infrastructure. Then we buy the new car (this applies particularly to the GDR and other cities around Ireland) and we make the repayments, pay the road tax and insurance and develop this incessant need to drive it everywhere, because...hey....Im paying for it so I'll drive it. This is, in many examples, a reality, even with the existance of public transport opportunities. A good example of this in operation is the Rock Road in Dublin. It runs parallel to the DART line to Bray and has bus services, yet it is bedlam 5 days a week at peak (even without the current roadworks)

So I suggest that Ireland has developed a new found "snobbery" to the potential use of public transport(across all classes) and that this is an important factor in our congestion problem and government priorities.

I remember a "Today Tonight" debate many many years ago, about funding for public transport. The conclusion arrived at, was that if more people used public transport, there'd be more money available to it. But people opted for their car (obviously in a government job back then, coz my parents didn't have a car at the time) because the perception was, that public transport was crap.
Hmmm... I'd say public transport is worse now than it was back in the early 80s.

Anyway. Might be something worth condsidering.

Slice · 24-07-2006 10:43am

I don't agree that people use cars for most journeys in the Greater Dublin Area because of any snobbery factor or because they prefer it. In some of the richest cities such as Zurich where car ownership is actually higher than Dublin the degree to which people actually use their cars is a fraction to which Dubliner's use their cars simply because the public transport in that city is superior to Dublin's. The main reason Greater Dublin is so car dependant is because there is no viable alternative - to not own a car is to be socially excluded - this is especially true the further out you live from the city centre, and it is exactly where local and national government has failed us.

Building more roads is a shortsighted solution that does not account for the fact that to do so is doing so at the expence of improved and integrated public transport which consequently has the effect of encouraging greater car ownership - thus compounding the problem

DerekP11 · 24-07-2006 10:56pm

Slice wrote:

The main reason Greater Dublin is so car dependant is because there is no viable alternative - to not own a car is to be socially excluded

Socially excleded eh? So what about drawing the "socially excluded" bit into the city area? Clondalkin, Blanchardstown or Tallaght? I lived in these areas. I got a bus to School or walked. Nowadays, its all people carriers and SUVs and driven by people who still live in the often descibed areas of "social exclusion", "povety stricken" and highlighted as areas that suffer from top notch rates of "anti social behaviour".

As for "greater Dublin"....read my post again. I clearly stated that it was a combination of housing issues, poor infrastructure and car dependency that caused the problem.

But, if you live in the real world, you should be able to recognise the simple fact that the "new rich" in Ireland want a car and want to drive it.

Your age, background and whether your parents, always owned a car in your lifetime, would be great pointers to your knowledge/opinion on this subject.

westtip · 24-07-2006 11:53pm

Diaspora wrote:

Please read previous posts.

A link road should be built from the M1 towards Monaghan Town for Derry and North Donegal and the N4 built up for South Donegal and East Leitrim.

Couldn't agree more and have said as much elsewhere - a route which straddles the border running west - east linking Sligo Enniskillen Monaghan Dundalk would suffice for traffic from the north west and border counties to travel to Dublin (and by the way Belfast) via the EAST/West border road to the axial east coast route of the M1. It could be achieved with a bit of cross border infrastructure spending, it would benefit counties both sides of the border. It would provide a much quicker route to the airport from the border counties and the north west, and provide a quick route from Monagahn to public health facilities (ie Dundalk hospital), which has been a huge public issue in Monaghan.

It all comes down to the disastrous axial planning of our motorway sytem in which the M50 has become the interchange for the entire system. For example travelling from Sligo (or anywhere in the north west to catch a flight from Dublin Airport, if the flight is in the morning you are faced with the stupid decision - to come off the motorway (M4) at Kilcock and cut across country on dodgy roads (on which you do get delayed) to avoid the log jam you know you will hit at the N4/M50 interchange and the toll bridge and the M50. Whereas with the cross border route mentioned above it would be an across and down route, with probably a lot more reliable traffic flows, but not going onto the M50 (and it wouldn't be toll avoidance as these would be paid on the M1).

It all comes down to PPP (not what you all think but Parish Pump Politics)

Diaspora · 25-07-2006 7:44am

As was said acidly by an NRA official 'He whe scream loudest gettee road' and be damned on what it costs gettee road now.

Looking at the images of Co Meath it is complete joke that one County can receive 4 seperate motorways including two that are totally predicated on commuter flows.

In the West of Ireland they always complain that the Jackeens get everything; they are almost right the jacks get overpriced houses in Meath & Kildare and the joys of three hours commuting a day to pay for them.

Slice · 25-07-2006 9:03am

DerekP11

Socially excleded eh? So what about drawing the "socially excluded" bit into the city area? Clondalkin, Blanchardstown or Tallaght? I lived in these areas. I got a bus to School or walked. Nowadays, its all people carriers and SUVs and driven by people who still live in the often descibed areas of "social exclusion"

I not talking about class divides and I wasn't really referring to any specific area either, the same that's said for Tallaght could be said for Foxrock insofar as it's impossible to get by without a car in both parts - say by comparison to someone who lives between the canals. I know that Foxrock is affluent compared to Tallaght but the point is that both areas promote social exclusion because it's very difficult to get to work without a car when you live in either area. Would you not consider that social exclusion? You're assuming that to travel by car is desirable or a sign of social superiority when in fact there are plenty of people living in areas of good public transport who do not have cars even though they can afford one simply because there is no need.

This argument applies more to cities where it makes more economic sense to provide extensive public transport but neither is it an excuse not to provide public transport to places like Navan in Meath instead of several unnecessary motorways.

Victor · 25-07-2006 10:05pm

Slice wrote:

DerekP11 I know that Foxrock is affluent compared to Tallaght but the point is that both areas promote social exclusion because it's very difficult to get to work without a car when you live in either area.

Depends on where in each. Foxrock Church is very different from Foxrock Village.

Foxrock Village 46N | 63 | 86 | http://www.dublinbus.ie/your_journey/viewer.asp?placeName=Foxrock

Foxrock Church 46A | 46D | 46N | 46X | 58C | 58X | 63 | 746 | 75 | 84 | 84X | http://www.dublinbus.ie/your_journey/viewer.asp?placeName=Foxrock%20Church

DerekP11 · 26-07-2006 1:32am

Slice wrote:

DerekP11

I not talking about class divides and I wasn't really referring to any specific area either, the same that's said for Tallaght could be said for Foxrock insofar as it's impossible to get by without a car in both parts - say by comparison to someone who lives between the canals. I know that Foxrock is affluent compared to Tallaght but the point is that both areas promote social exclusion because it's very difficult to get to work without a car when you live in either area. Would you not consider that social exclusion? You're assuming that to travel by car is desirable or a sign of social superiority when in fact there are plenty of people living in areas of good public transport who do not have cars even though they can afford one simply because there is no need.

This argument applies more to cities where it makes more economic sense to provide extensive public transport but neither is it an excuse not to provide public transport to places like Navan in Meath instead of several unnecessary motorways.

Your argument appears to be closely based on that presented by James Wickhams book, Gridlock.

I admire greatly, Professors Wickhams book,views and rationale, but this is an area where I'd disagree with him. I think that affluency has contributed in some form to increased traffic congestion by way of people in certain areas, adopting the car despite alternative public transport. I'd go as far as saying that it requires a specific study.

Slice · 26-07-2006 9:22am

Your argument appears to be closely based on that presented by James Wickhams book

Yes, in relation to approach to the city it would be consistent. But my opinions on public transport are my own.

Funding Priorities - Road -v- Rail (split)

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