Could the train once again be the King of the Dublin/Cork route?

Jamie2k9 · 15-04-2013 12:23am

Solair wrote: »

The first part of the fleet was introduced in 1984 and completely refurbished a few years ago. So, it's probably got a long life ahead of it yet.
Rest of the fleet's from 2000 - 2004, so have at least 35 years left in them yet!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_Area_Rapid_Transit#Current_Fleet

The oldest fleet is 29 years old (with massive refurbishment carried out by Siemens around 2007/2008.

Didn't think they were so new, they look much older IMO.

devnull · 15-04-2013 12:26am

I actually prefer the old darts, the ones that were refurbished. They just feel better to me and more like a metro/underground style of operation where the newer ones just feel like a converted commuter train.

The refurbished ones tend to actually have a working information system, too.

Solair · 15-04-2013 12:26am

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Didn't think they were so new, they look much older IMO.

They're just built with a fairly utilitarian design.
It's not uncommon for those kinds of trains to look very dated. They're just rather dull looking commuter trains that are designed to be easy to maintain, wipe-down and long-life. Doesn't necessarily make them look too exciting.

Most of the world's metro / commuter trains are like that.

devnull wrote: »

I actually prefer the old darts, the ones that were refurbished. They just feel better to me and more like a metro/underground style of operation where the newer ones just feel like a converted commuter train.

The refurbished ones tend to actually have a working information system, too.

The old ones are actually similar to some Berlin Metro trains while the new ones are actually based on a Japanese Metro train design.

I find them both pretty 'American' in the sense that they're that kind of stainless-steel, wipe-down, unbreakable kind of design that you find in most US public transport i.e. ugly, solid and built to last.

Anyway -- We're WAY OFF topic on DART this should be about the Cork-Dublin line only!

dowlingm · 15-04-2013 9:47pm

The OP describes a train journey from Killarney to Dublin, where the train is undisputably faster, but then compares with Aircoach?

The big problem the intercity train has in my view is that it does not keep the business traveller to the forefront - instead it is trying to compete on fare with other companies with more flexibility and lower operating costs, and on services to Dublin it's making commuter stops because IE didn't have the cash to complete KRP or to operate additional trains to allow expresses to bypass.

For example, I think the lack of a train ex Dublin which reaches Cork and Limerick in time for an early business meeting is a big gap in the schedule especially IE can justify dispatching a Limerick-Galway train at 0555. Here's an example schedule based on the 1500 Heuston-Kent which makes the same stops. As more 100mph track is added maybe another stop could be added or a bit of slack taken out of the arrival time.

Heuston 0600
Thurles 0709 - connection to Limerick departs 0740 but maybe something could be worked out
Charleville 0745 - new commuter service which would compare very favourably with BE 243 (dep Charleville 0715 arr PP 0830)
Mallow 0800 - existing commuter service
Cork 0830

[Deleted User] · 15-04-2013 10:12pm

I'd say that CIE's insistence on GM came down to their bad experiences with the British made stuff. But it's quite obvious that their locomotives weren't the best choice for passenger use.

It's a real pity that the Mark 3s could never show their full potential over here. However, even if we could get the Cork line up to a near constant 100mph then it would be a big help. The Belfast line would be more awkward; much of the line north of the border is restricted to 70 due to level crossings or tight curves. I'm sure it's not impossible though, where there's a will there's a way...

bk wrote: »

There already is.

Though to be honest if you want quietness and the ability to sleep then the bus is definitely much better IMO.

My biggest problem with the quiet coach on the Mark 4s is that you can't book a seat in it. So you'd have to pay the walk-on fare or else just not sit in your allocated seat.

MGWR · 16-04-2013 12:07am

dowlingm wrote: »

The OP describes a train journey from Killarney to Dublin, where the train is undisputably faster, but then compares with Aircoach?

The big problem the intercity train has in my view is that it does not keep the business traveller to the forefront - instead it is trying to compete on fare with other companies with more flexibility and lower operating costs, and on services to Dublin it's making commuter stops because IE didn't have the cash to complete KRP or to operate additional trains to allow expresses to bypass.

For example, I think the lack of a train ex Dublin which reaches Cork and Limerick in time for an early business meeting is a big gap in the schedule especially IE can justify dispatching a Limerick-Galway train at 0555. Here's an example schedule based on the 1500 Heuston-Kent which makes the same stops. As more 100 mph track is added maybe another stop could be added or a bit of slack taken out of the arrival time.

Heuston 0600
Thurles 0709 - connection to Limerick departs 0740 but maybe something could be worked out
Charleville 0745 - new commuter service which would compare very favourably with BE 243 (dep Charleville 0715 arr PP 0830)
Mallow 0800 - existing commuter service
Cork 0830

Interesting point about business travellers. Many other intercity trains are configured to cater to that class; trains are often equipped with reclining seating (which is reversible) as well as other associated amenities. Even standard accommodations on a lot of intercity railway services include seats so configured. IE needs to get out of the one-size-fits-all mindset when it comes to railway carriage comfort...or else let a private company handle the heavy lifting.

end of the road · 16-04-2013 1:33am

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Didn't CAF build most of the commuter fleets as well...

just the 29s, they built NIRS 3000 and 4000 class also.

bk · 16-04-2013 1:41am

MGWR wrote: »

Interesting point about business travellers. Many other intercity trains are configured to cater to that class; trains are often equipped with reclining seating (which is reversible) as well as other associated amenities. Even standard accommodations on a lot of intercity railway services include seats so configured. IE needs to get out of the one-size-fits-all mindset when it comes to railway carriage comfort...or else let a private company handle the heavy lifting.

While I agree with the point that there should be an earlier train services. I disagree that there is a market for a business class service.

The reality is that there just not that many business class customers here in Ireland. And even the ones that are here are also very price sensitive.

Really top executives either are flown by helicopter or are driven by a driver in their luxury car.

For all other business travel levels, most companies that I know, now refuse to pay for business class or first class travel. They have become price sensitive.

The reality is distances aren't very far in Ireland, you don't need sleeper seats and other fancy amenities like you get on long distance business flights. It just isn't worth it. And this is even reflected in the airline industry, with business class being nothing but a slightly wider seat on flights less then 4 hours.

What will get people back to rail is a consistently good quality, fast and cheap rail service.

Solair · 16-04-2013 8:58am

To be perfectly honest, the only true 'business class' services I've seen packed out seemed to be around the big centres if civil service and banking like Brussels and London.

There isn't that kind of lavish, money no object expense culture in Irish companies and even civil servants have to be more prudent these days.

Some other countries' taxation systems are also a lot more lavish about what can be written off as a legitimate business expense.

They could definitely market business class more imaginatively though : for example how about a Cork-Dublin train ticket that comes with city gold and optional car hire at Heuston or Kent?

The other issue is that there's really very little advantage to 1st class when standard class is quite ok and 1st class is basically just slightly wider seats.

That being said, Irish rails journeys are generally to short to make any use of such facilities.

On long trips eg London to Glasgow they start to make sense.

MGWR · 16-04-2013 8:59am

bk wrote: »

While I agree with the point that there should be an earlier train services. I disagree that there is a market for a business class service.

The reality is that there just not that many business class customers here in Ireland. And even the ones that are here are also very price sensitive.

Really top executives either are flown by helicopter or are driven by a driver in their luxury car.

For all other business travel levels, most companies that I know, now refuse to pay for business class or first class travel. They have become price sensitive.

The reality is distances aren't very far in Ireland, you don't need sleeper seats and other fancy amenities like you get on long distance business flights. It just isn't worth it. And this is even reflected in the airline industry, with business class being nothing but a slightly wider seat on flights less then 4 hours.

What will get people back to rail is a consistently good quality, fast and cheap rail service.

The private sector has lots of good ideas, and they do know how to actually compete. Don't let the narrow vision of government spoil the view. Business class on a train often suffices at the "slightly wider seats" level; it is not a novel idea, but one that exists in real life.

bk · 16-04-2013 9:57am

MGWR wrote: »

The private sector has lots of good ideas, and they do know how to actually compete. Don't let the narrow vision of government spoil the view. Business class on a train often suffices at the "slightly wider seats" level; it is not a novel idea, but one that exists in real life.

Well Ryanair the largest airline in Europe has no business class at all.

And they are one of the most profitable airlines in the world. They manage to do this by focusing on getting you there fast and efficiently with ok comfort, but most importantly a cheap price.

Most other shorthaul airlines only have business class to cover code sharing agreements with long haul airlines, where a business traveller, might be using the shorthaul airline on one leg of a long distance multi-leg trip. (e.g. If you were flying business class from London to Hong Kong via BA, you might fly business class Cork to London with Aerlingus on the same ticket).

Business class only starts to pay for itself (and helps subsidise standard class) on medium and particular long haul flights (e.g. Asia to Europe).

I myself work for a very large and successful US IT company and I do quiet a bit of travel for them. The policy is you can only travel business class if you are a senior director or up or if the flight is more then ten hours (and you still have to get an exception for that).

As Solair said, there really isn't much call for business class outside of London and Brussels and only then if you are going long distance.

Again I'll say that what Irish Rail needs to focus on is being fast, cheap, efficient and easy to use.

I'm of the opinion that they should follow the dutch rail model:

- No seat reservations or online booking (you can buy a ticket online, but it doesn't reserve a particular train).
- Max fare is €20 walk up, no matter how far you are going.
- You can use the ticket flexibly on any departure.

This would make Irish Rail much simpler to use and much more flexible to use, more like the cheaper bus companies.

It would also make 1st class more attractive as it would be the only place you could book and reserve (guarantee) a seat.

I think this is about the only thing you can practically do to make 1st class more attractive.

n97 mini · 16-04-2013 10:22am

I think there would be a better market for business class on trains that are not running between 8am and 6pm, when people actually work.

The earliest train from Dublin to Cork only arrives into Cork at close to 10am (hard to believe), so IE are not catering for people with jobs. No point in having a business class on the evening return as anyone gone to Cork took their car.

Going the other way the 0630 ex Cork, and the returns departing Dublin at 1900 and 2100, might have a business users.

Jamie2k9 · 16-04-2013 4:27pm

Well Ryanair the largest airline in Europe has no business class at all.

And they are one of the most profitable airlines in the world. They manage to do this by focusing on getting you there fast and efficiently with ok comfort, but most importantly a cheap price.

BK do you realy believe that or are you just very naive. Do some reseach before you post a statment like that and get facts.

Richard Logue · 16-04-2013 4:50pm

bk wrote: »

While I agree with the point that there should be an earlier train services. I disagree that there is a market for a business class service.

The reality is that there just not that many business class customers here in Ireland. And even the ones that are here are also very price sensitive.

Really top executives either are flown by helicopter or are driven by a driver in their luxury car.

Helicopters? Might have been in the Celtic Tiger days but not now!

For all other business travel levels, most companies that I know, now refuse to pay for business class or first class travel. They have become price sensitive.

Airline travel maybe. Train almost certainly not given the comparitively low price difference in Ireland for First Class train travel. Believe it or not Irish Rail is actually quite cheap compared to its Continental and British cousins.

The reality is distances aren't very far in Ireland, you don't need sleeper seats and other fancy amenities like you get on long distance business flights. It just isn't worth it. And this is even reflected in the airline industry, with business class being nothing but a slightly wider seat on flights less then 4 hours.

The distances are sufficient to make people think twice about driving or taking the train. What you won't get is too many business travellers willing to be trundled around on a cramped bus. There remains room for a premium business product on the Belfast, Cork and Galway lines to allow business people to work and meet in comfort without too many distractions. Business rail travel is extremely profitable elsewhere in Europe. Dublin-Cork is comparable with London-Manchester, but more importantly we do need early bird trains from Dublin that can get to Cork, Galway and Belfast before 9am.

What will get people back to rail is a consistently good quality, fast and cheap rail service.

We can definitely agree on this point! I would argue for the extension of heavy rail to Dublin Airport as an absolute priority if we ever get some money for rail infrastructure and actually re-engineer a number of InterCity services to use DUB as a termination point, or at least offer shuttles from Heuston and Connolly.

bk · 16-04-2013 5:07pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

BK do you realy believe that or are you just very naive. Do some reseach before you post a statment like that and get facts.

Efficency do you mean?

Then yes, Ryanair has the fastest loading and unloading times, the fastest turnaround times and the highest on time arrival times in the European airline industry. This is how airlines measure efficiency.

Ryanair was also the most profitable airline in Europe in 2012.

So what exactly are you questioning?

You may not like Ryanair, but they are a damn efficient and profitable operation.

Jamie2k9 · 16-04-2013 5:14pm

bk wrote: »

Efficency do you mean?

Then yes, Ryanair has the fastest loading and unloading times, the fastest turnaround times and the highest on time arrival times in the European airline industry. This is how airlines measure efficiency.

Ryanair was also the most profitable airline in Europe in 2012.

So what exactly are you questioning?

You may not like Ryanair, but they are a damn efficient and profitable operation.

1 - Ryanair add extra time onto flights which other operators don't which is why there flights arrive so early.
2 - When add the extras add on other carriers are cheaper.
3 - being in profit is great but what expense does it come at....

http://www.smartertravel.com/blogs/today-in-travel/ryanair-accused-of-treating-cabin-crew-as-slaves.html?id=14565801
http://www.newsinenglish.no/2013/04/15/pressure-grows-on-ryanair/

Just one article then there is the no so level playing feild when it coems to competing with other operators.

Anyway I will be unable to respond to any more posts abuot the topic. Just pointing out everything is not black and while as it may seem.

n97 mini · 16-04-2013 7:07pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

1 - Ryanair add extra time onto flights which other operators don't which is why there flights arrive so early.
2 - When add the extras add on other carriers are cheaper.

Don't mean to go off topic, but you didn't provide anything to back up these two statements. So I had a look myself at flight times from Dublin to Manchester and to Gatwick, using skyscanner.ie. I can't find any difference between Ryanair and anyone else. For example, Dublin to Gatwick, Aer Lingus quote 1:15 to 1:30. Ryanair quote 1:20 to 1:25.

Using the same site, all extras are included in the price quoted. Whether you like it or not Ryanair are the cheapest option a large majority of cases.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

3 - being in profit is great but what expense does it come at....

I read the two articles you quoted. The fact remains that Ryanair has an excellent safety record, so I'm not sure what expense you're talking about.

Jamie2k9 · 16-04-2013 7:11pm

n97 mini wrote: »

Don't mean to go off topic, but you didn't provide anything to back up these two statements. So I had a look myself at flight times from Dublin to Manchester and to Gatwick, using skyscanner.ie. I can't find any difference between Ryanair and anyone else. For example, Dublin to Gatwick, Aer Lingus quote 1:15 to 1:30. Ryanair quote 1:20 to 1:25.

Using the same site, Skyscanner, all extras are included in the price quoted. Whether you like it or not Ryanair are the cheapest option a large majority of cases.

I read the two articles you quoted. The fact remains that Ryanair has an excellent safety record, so I'm not sure what expense you're talking about.

Its not so much UK routes to others in Europe.

I said nothing about their saftey record but there profit comes at a cost and thats the employee's conditions and the millions of taxpayers money they receive around Europe every year which other carriers don't which is why they are in so much profit.

Richard Logue · 16-04-2013 7:31pm

Not sure what Ryanair does has much bearing on the Dublin Cork rail route, however it would be great to be able to travel by train from Dublin Airport to anywhere on the Irish rail network.

dowlingm · 16-04-2013 8:40pm

It's true that the business climate is changing but in some respects that should favour conversion to rail travel. Return mileage or provision of a company car could make rail look cheap in some respects. The key would be for IE to keep up with the rehabilitation of the mainlines to reduce areas where trains are forced to slow unnecessarily because of ageing track or grade crossings.

Also Irish Rail would have to concentrate on lines that have the potential for high yield and reduce costs on lines or suspend service where they simply cannot compete for speed, have higher labour costs per mile in terms of manual crossings, have no additional income from freight and aren't filling trains, starting with Killonan Junction to Ballybrophy and with Ennis-Athenry and Waterford-Limerick Junction placed on notice of service suspension.

Solair · 16-04-2013 8:41pm

Richard Logue wrote: »

Dublin-Cork is comparable with London-Manchester

It really isn't remotely comparable in terms of populations or scale of business tbh.

Dublin many times smaller than London and Cork is the size of a suburb of Manchester.

They maybe our capital and second cities but a comparison to say Copenhagen and Denmark's second city or maybe Bordeaux and Nantes might be more appropriate.

n97 mini · 16-04-2013 10:18pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Its not so much UK routes to others in Europe.

Such as?

(Mods feel free to split to another thread, I think this topic is worth discussing)

Kumsheen · 16-04-2013 10:41pm

At some time in the future, traffic will increase to the stage where road journey times will increase particularly at peak times.

People also hate to be stuck in traffic jams with constant stop-start motion, which will reduce journey comfort experience.

So for me, it's future traffic congestion which will make rail an effective mode again.

Jamie2k9 · 16-04-2013 10:56pm

n97 mini wrote: »

Such as?

(Mods feel free to split to another thread, I think this topic is worth discussing)

Faro would be one example FR allow 3h and 3h5m with as others allow 2h50-2h55m.

Anyway if I discuss it further it may result in legal procedings being taking against me. This is what you are dealing with. If you want to discuss further than take it to PM.

At some time in the future, traffic will increase to the stage where road journey times will increase particularly at peak times.

People also hate to be stuck in traffic jams with constant stop-start motion, which will reduce journey comfort experience.

So for me, it's future traffic congestion which will make rail an effective mode again.

I agree and trains will be back at the top with fastest journey times when it matters ie morning and evenings.

Grandeeod · 17-04-2013 12:46am

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Faro would be one example FR allow 3h and 3h5m with as others allow 2h50-2h55m.

Anyway if I discuss it further it may result in legal procedings being taking against me. This is what you are dealing with. If you want to discuss further than take it to PM.

I agree and trains will be back at the top with fastest journey times when it matters ie morning and evenings.

FR fly DUB - TFS faster than AL as another example. Im not convinced your argument is proved.

As for the dear oul train to Cork or Dublin along the same line.....

I love train travel. However we can argue all night about the if, buts and whens. Currently and as things stand in Ireland, the motorway network has proven how small the country actually is. There is no side stepping this reality. Until the completion of the motorway network, rail was favourable but only due to the diabolical nature of our road network. Now IC rail travel is being exposed as the poorly invested in predecessor of the modern road that plugged a hole in a road deficit and is no longer relevant in its current guise.

But as a small nation can we afford or justify the expensive catch up scenarios that other European nations followed post motorway? Irelands railways have always been unique and always will be. We can only examine their future once we are prepared to accept their uniqueness in a European context. We are a small island that lacks a real level of population density. We have invested in road infrastructure that many believe is OTT. But its there and shrinking journey times as I type. Perhaps road transport is the IC solution in Ireland and rail should be developed only at a commuter level?

Im accutely aware that CIE would love to close most of the rail network if the bean counters got their way and I hate admitting that a lot of our rail network is now redundant. However, if we can't afford it and don't actually need most of it, why perlong the inevitable? As a rail lover, I firmly believe that Ireland and its uniqueness in rail terms, combined with its size and modernized road network has reduced our need for rail travel to a mere commuter use.......unless we have money to burn and we may never have again.

foggy_lad · 17-04-2013 12:52am

Kumsheen wrote: »

At some time in the future, traffic will increase to the stage where road journey times will increase particularly at peak times.

People also hate to be stuck in traffic jams with constant stop-start motion, which will reduce journey comfort experience.

So for me, it's future traffic congestion which will make rail an effective mode again.

Rail will be important for the future but only as high capacity commuter services centered around Dublin and Cork and maybe Limerick, Intercity rail has no real future in its current form.

end of the road · 17-04-2013 12:53am

we need as many pro rail people as we can to come up with ways to fight for our rail network, dispite what some might believe it is needed, with proper investment and proper speeds it can offer faster journey times then the motor way, a motor way alone isn't good enough for ireland, it needs something else to complament it and no better piece of infrastructure to do that then rail, we need to fight for it as once its gone its gone, in my view if it went it would be a step backwards just like the removal of the dublin tram network to be replaced by busses (all though i'm sure at the time the infrastructure was so far gone that a bus was faster)

corktina · 17-04-2013 1:06am

i think Intercity will always have a future IF it is upgraded to compete and sensible things like cheap off-peak fares are brought in. Commuter services will also have to survive. I have to admit though that there are some lines around the country with little or no future.

Jamie2k9 · 17-04-2013 1:20am

FR fly DUB - TFS faster than AL as another example. Im not convinced your argument is proved.

As for the dear oul train to Cork or Dublin along the same line.....

AL have larger aircraft rostered on the route which take longer due to weight loads an so on, turst me I work for the airline and its not always from DUB that it happens its Europe wide. Ryanair is what it is and makes money but its a very different story for people who work their and I was just pointing out BK statment dpsn't reflect the real Ryanair ie fastest turnaround times as they have increase over the last few years and extra flight time increases them further.

i think Intercity will always have a future IF it is upgraded to compete and sensible things like cheap off-peak fares are brought in. Commuter services will also have to survive. I have to admit though that there are some lines around the country with little or no future.

All lines have a future except the WRC and Ballybrophy to Limerick, one is completly new and nobody wants to use it and the other is just about servicable for trains. Limerick-Waterford has a future however not until all level corssings are automatic and a better service between Clonmel and Waterford.

Richard Logue · 17-04-2013 7:23am

To all those "rail lovers" who want to shut down large chunks of the network I would say be careful what you wish for. I would agree that Limerick-Ballybrophy's future looks doubtful and the Ennis-Athenry line needs to improve passenger numbers but if places like Ballina, Westport and Tralee were to lose their services they won't get them back again.

Could the train once again be the King of the Dublin/Cork route?

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