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Good discipline.What is it?
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12-04-2014 1:03pm#1I was very interested in a recently closed thread about a discipline issue. The thread was closed before I had a chance to get my two cents in, and, feeling that discipline is such a crucial issue, I decided to start a new thread. In the closed thread the OP described an incident with a student who became aggressive. Some of the replies were interesting in what they revealed about current attitudes to discipline, described by the OP as the “rot setting in”. I’m not sure I’d go that far, but overall, I’d be in full agreement with the OP about that issue.
Attitudes to discipline have swung to the other extreme from the dark days of corporal punishment, and as with everything, extremes are bad. Unruly, unacceptable, even threatening behaviour is glibly explained away nowadays as the “poor child has issues” and in a classroom situation, the tendency is to always blame the teacher. This is wrong. Teachers are human and with ever deteriorating job conditions, overcrowded classes and little help with discipline, it’s no wonder we lose the plot occasionally. If younger teachers and nqt’s can’t see that simple logic, then the rot is setting in and those eager beaver, idealistic teachers will get a rude awakening, sooner rather than later.
So, what is good discipline? To me it’s common sense and boundaries. Everyone and every relationship needs both. I have always been impressed by teachers whose presence immediately stills a hyper class.But I’ve never been able to do that and I’m not convinced it’s natural. My junior classes tend to be noisy affairs, but overall, cheerful environments with good learning. My senior classes on the contrary, are generally quiet and focused, because I insist on it. This varies, obviously, depending on the activity, but more self discipline is required of older kids and this is good preparation for adult life. My discipline is completely based on bonding with my students and establishing a strong rapport. If a teacher can get kids on side, then in many, even most, cases, anything is possible. However, even in my noisy, more chaotic classes, there are always boundaries and lines that must not be crossed.
I think aggression and disrespect should never be tolerated. Everyone, teacher and pupils, alike, have the right to a secure environment. So, to put it bluntly and politically incorrectly, we should be able to turf out a kid who won’t tow the line. Not permanently. But until such time as the issue has been dealt with and an apology made. Every teacher should insist on that.
Times might have changed, but human nature hasn’t and teachers need better support in this crucial issue.4
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To me in general discipline is what a principal makes it.
If a kid knows that disruption is not accepted and will result in removal from class and there will be a sanction then it is easier to keep good discipline in a class.
If a kid knows that "sure teacher roars for a minute but nothing else will happen" then it is difficult for any teacher to keep absolute discipline in their class.
Like you said discipline can mean different things to different people, you might think noisy work is acceptable, I know a few in my school that think nothing is acceptable but silence.
My view is that discipline is where they know how to respect you and they know where the line is, that is not to be crossed. Yes there will always be the odd incident but they can be dealt with.
Some classes have to be kept in line more than others so I don't think that one teacher will have one way of dealing with discipline but I think it can be summed up with the line above, even with the worst of students (and I have dealt with those)0 -
To me in general discipline is what a principal makes it.
If a kid knows that disruption is not accepted and will result in removal from class and there will be a sanction then it is easier to keep good discipline in a class.
If a kid knows that "sure teacher roars for a minute but nothing else will happen" then it is difficult for any teacher to keep absolute discipline in their class.
Like you said discipline can mean different things to different people, you might think noisy work is acceptable, I know a few in my school that think nothing is acceptable but silence.
My view is that discipline is where they know how to respect you and they know where the line is, that is not to be crossed. Yes there will always be the odd incident but they can be dealt with.
Some classes have to be kept in line more than others so I don't think that one teacher will have one way of dealing with discipline but I think it can be summed up with the line above, even with the worst of students (and I have dealt with those)
I agree. And you're right about the discipline structures in the school and that it must come from the top. But, ultimately,the teacher is alone in the classroom and often has to make an immediate call.
But, like so much else in teaching,good discipline is indefinable and unquantifiable. Good classroom management comes with experience and there's no "How to" manual. But I feel for younger collegues who are often overwhelmed and who get little support. A class might behave well for an older, established teacher,but will feed a new teacher or a sub to the lions and often with impunity. Many such teachers are afraid to report incidents for fear they'll be branded with the idiotic "can't control the class" catch phrase.
And then, when the inspector calls the class might behave like little angels, and it's one big false act.
Less time, energy and money should be spent on superficial stuff like inspections and the various,inane policies,and a lot more on discipline support.0 -
I was speaking to a primary school principal a few years back who had been in the game a long time. I asked him did he think that student behaviour was worse now that it was say twenty/thirty years ago. He told me that the same percentage of students cause trouble nowadays as they did twenty/thirty years ago, but the type of trouble they cause is far worse than the type caused twenty/thirty years ago.
I often speak to older teachers about their experiences too, and a few have told me that the ability of students to concentrate for any length of time has gone down dramatically in that last fifteen to twenty years. We're spoon-feeding them now compared to the eighties/nineties.
I think low attention levels and lack of personal discipline in some students are huge factors which every teacher has to deal with. I do believe though that most students are on the whole grand, and just get on with their work. I also look at the classroom like it's a microcosm of society, most people are decent and hard-working, but you'll always have a percentage of people who just can't be arsed to do anything for themselves.0 -
I was very interested in a recently closed thread about a discipline issue. The thread was closed before I had a chance to get my two cents in, and, feeling that discipline is such a crucial issue, I decided to start a new thread. In the closed thread the OP described an incident with a student who became aggressive. Some of the replies were interesting in what they revealed about current attitudes to discipline, described by the OP as the “rot setting in”. I’m not sure I’d go that far, but overall, I’d be in full agreement with the OP about that issue.
Attitudes to discipline have swung to the other extreme from the dark days of corporal punishment, and as with everything, extremes are bad. Unruly, unacceptable, even threatening behaviour is glibly explained away nowadays as the “poor child has issues” and in a classroom situation, the tendency is to always blame the teacher. This is wrong. Teachers are human and with ever deteriorating job conditions, overcrowded classes and little help with discipline, it’s no wonder we lose the plot occasionally. If younger teachers and nqt’s can’t see that simple logic, then the rot is setting in and those eager beaver, idealistic teachers will get a rude awakening, sooner rather than later.
So, what is good discipline? To me it’s common sense and boundaries. Everyone and every relationship needs both. I have always been impressed by teachers whose presence immediately stills a hyper class.But I’ve never been able to do that and I’m not convinced it’s natural. My junior classes tend to be noisy affairs, but overall, cheerful environments with good learning. My senior classes on the contrary, are generally quiet and focused, because I insist on it. This varies, obviously, depending on the activity, but more self discipline is required of older kids and this is good preparation for adult life. My discipline is completely based on bonding with my students and establishing a strong rapport. If a teacher can get kids on side, then in many, even most, cases, anything is possible. However, even in my noisy, more chaotic classes, there are always boundaries and lines that must not be crossed.
I think aggression and disrespect should never be tolerated. Everyone, teacher and pupils, alike, have the right to a secure environment. So, to put it bluntly and politically incorrectly, we should be able to turf out a kid who won’t tow the line. Not permanently. But until such time as the issue has been dealt with and an apology made. Every teacher should insist on that.
Times might have changed, but human nature hasn’t and teachers need better support in this crucial issue.
Whist I would agree with discipline being a very important issue in regard to schools I despise this doom and gloom attitude whereby when someone says something that you don't agree with people reply with 'that's the problem of today's society'.
The way the initial discipline thread was worded asked what would have happened in the school which you worked. I do work in a school and have only recently left secondary school in the past number of years so I do have experience in regard to discipline and wasn't referring to 'school days gone by', I'm on the front line too. Many people have different approaches to discipline and all should be valued. My views about discipline might not be universally accepted but they are nonetheless valid for me.
I will agree that attitudes towards discipline have changed, I was told before I began my teaching placement by the head of the educational dept of a major university (I won't say which one) that I wasn't allowed to remove any student from a classroom even if they were disruptive because it would be my fault if they got themselves into trouble. I also will admit that I am afraid to discipline a child because of the crazy parents you can sometimes meet but I still enforce what I believe to be the correct decision. I feel that I shouldn't be afraid to make a decision about discipline when the decision is reasonable within the classroom without that fear. I will also admit that I am at a cross roads at times because discipline seems to have become a very complicated issue with regard to children with emotional or behavioral problems in the classroom.
I don't know any 'eager beavers' but I don't like this us and them attitude, we are all teachers. I may be new to teaching as are many doing their teaching practice but we do see what's going on in front of our eyes. I can only speak about my post but I wasn't blaming the teacher, I was simply saying what I would have done as I work in a school. It is very difficult to judge a situation by a post by one party, I also of course believe that threatening behavior by either party is totally unacceptable. A certain amount of compassion is needed in the teaching practice about a student's mind frame but drawing the line is important too. In my post I was trying to imagine what the student might have felt because sometimes it calms them down to emphatise with them and this was judged to have been blaming the teacher.
Yes, my classes are noisy sometimes too especially with younger classes but it is always related to the topic which we are covering which is key. I don't want to stunt their ability to engage with a topic. I ask them to put up their hands too to make sure my quieter students have a chance to say what they think. I think it helps to set boundaries too.0 -
No learning can take place without proper classroom management.
Rules, routines, relationships (Marzano).
IMO, the teacher MUST be in control - absolutely no fudging this one!
However, that does mean having or indeed winning every single argument, discussion etc. etc.
Equally presence does not have to mean shouting (I find it funny how some teachers forget their own school days! This is what some kids actually want)
Generally, repeatedly raising your voice means you are losing.
A good referee - be discreet.
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I disagree that raising your voice, repeatedly or otherwise, means you're losing.
Classroom management comes in different styles. Some teachers are shouters, others are not, whatever works! Though I agree that a bullish, shouty attitude doesn't achieve much in the long term.0 -
I disagree that raising your voice, repeatedly or otherwise, means you're losing.
Classroom management comes in different styles. Some teachers are shouters, others are not, whatever works! Though I agree that a bullish, shouty attitude doesn't achieve much in the long term.
I totally agree, I never shout because I remember being at school in classrooms where teachers did shout and it was disruptive to my learning. I was a quiet student and when teachers shouted (never at me) but when I was in the room it forced me into shut down mode. The atmosphere in the room after a teacher shouts is so tense, nobody feels that they can say anything even related to the coursework. I feel that teacher's are an example for students and if we shout why can we tell them not to? Obviously it's different in times of emergency where a quick and loud response is needed but in the day to day life of the school it isn't needed.0 -
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In one of my many moments of, um, something...I did a school wide survey of what it was that teachers did that the children disliked most.
The number one thing for just over 70% of them was shouting. They absolutely hate it. Second was giving out, which in many cases probably meant shouting too.0 -
Sorry folks ie the last two posters,Spurious and Nicole,but you're both taking a one sided approach here,in the sense of presenting it from the kids point of view and either intentionally or otherwise, blaming the teacher.
What I said in my original post is very important - "with ever deteriorating job conditions, overcrowded classes and little help with discipline, it’s no wonder we lose the plot occasionally" Losing the plot might be launching into a tirade,throwing a kid out or even the teacher storming out of the class.
In an ideal world of course the teacher doesn't raise his /her voice. In an ideal world the teacher is always patient and always keeps the head.
But we are in the real world, which in the average Irish school of 2014, is far from ideal. And if teachers aren't going to yell and if we want to protect the quiet kid who hates a hostile atmosphere, then we must have better discipline supports,which is exactly my original point.0 -
Sorry folks ie the last two posters,Spurious and Nicole,but you're both taking a one sided approach here,in the sense of presenting it from the kids point of view and either intentionally or otherwise, blaming the teacher.
What I said in my original post is very important - "with ever deteriorating job conditions, overcrowded classes and little help with discipline, it’s no wonder we lose the plot occasionally" Losing the plot might be launching into a tirade,throwing a kid out or even the teacher storming out of the class.
In an ideal world of course the teacher doesn't raise his /her voice. In an ideal world the teacher is always patient and always keeps the head.
But we are in the real world, which in the average Irish school of 2014, is far from ideal. And if teachers aren't going to yell and if we want to protect the quiet kid who hates a hostile atmosphere, then we must have better discipline supports,which is exactly my original point.
But why would it be necessary for a person to shout to get their point across? Consider the effects that a shouting teacher has on a classroom, it could be harmful for the student teacher relationship. Yes, teachers are overworked and under supported but should this be taken out on the children? Surely we are there to teach them to be well mannered citizens of this country. People have made the point about discipline in relation to what if a child behaved a certain way in the workplace for example shouting, a teacher is in their workplace. I don't know why a person cannot discipline their students without shouting, you may get them to be quiet but at what cost? My favourite teacher never raised her voice at us once in the six years she taught us even though I knew she was frustrated with us at times. When we saw that she wasn't happy with us we quietened down because we respected her and her choice not to shout at us. I aim to be like her in my role as a teacher. You cannot escape the fact that students do not like being shouted at which is what Spurious was drawing attention to. I know you, the OP aren't advocating shouting all of the time, and your point is in relation to how the teacher feels in this situation, isn't that by your own definition bias towards the teacher? We pride ourselves on having an impact on the education of young people so we thus acknowledge that we have an impact on young people's lives so that means that every interaction that we have with students has a particular impact so while I understand that someone may shout etc, I don't believe that it is the right thing to do morally.0 -
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Sorry folks ie the last two posters,Spurious and Nicole,but you're both taking a one sided approach here,in the sense of presenting it from the kids point of view and either intentionally or otherwise, blaming the teacher.
What I said in my original post is very important - "with ever deteriorating job conditions, overcrowded classes and little help with discipline, it’s no wonder we lose the plot occasionally" Losing the plot might be launching into a tirade,throwing a kid out or even the teacher storming out of the class.
In an ideal world of course the teacher doesn't raise his /her voice. In an ideal world the teacher is always patient and always keeps the head.
But we are in the real world, which in the average Irish school of 2014, is far from ideal. And if teachers aren't going to yell and if we want to protect the quiet kid who hates a hostile atmosphere, then we must have better discipline supports,which is exactly my original point.
I think I know what the real world is like - take it from me, without mentioning the schools, I spent almost 30 years at the coal face until I decided my life and health was worth more.
I was simply reporting what the children said. My colleagues and I were convinced they would say homework, but it wasn't - it was shouting by a mile.
They also disliked shouting by other students, but that was another survey.0 -
But why would it be necessary for a person to shout to get their point across? Consider the effects that a shouting teacher has on a classroom, it could be harmful for the student teacher relationship. Yes, teachers are overworked and under supported but should this be taken out on the children? Surely we are there to teach them to be well mannered citizens of this country. People have made the point about discipline in relation to what if a child behaved a certain way in the workplace for example shouting, a teacher is in their workplace. I don't know why a person cannot discipline their students without shouting, you may get them to be quiet but at what cost? My favourite teacher never raised her voice at us once in the six years she taught us even though I knew she was frustrated with us at times. When we saw that she wasn't happy with us we quietened down because we respected her and her choice not to shout at us. I aim to be like her in my role as a teacher. You cannot escape the fact that students do not like being shouted at which is what Spurious was drawing attention to. I know you, the OP aren't advocating shouting all of the time, and your point is in relation to how the teacher feels in this situation, isn't that by your own definition bias towards the teacher? We pride ourselves on having an impact on the education of young people so we thus acknowledge that we have an impact on young people's lives so that means that every interaction that we have with students has a particular impact so while I understand that someone may shout etc, I don't believe that it is the right thing to do morally.
I get what you're saying,Nicole, but I think you may be missing my point. I'm not advocating shouting. I'm simply saying that until such a time as better discipline supports are put in place, I find it perfectly understandable that an extremely stressed teacher loses the plot. And yes absolutely,my bias is towards the teacher,because not enough consideration is ever given to the teacher. A happy teacher creates a good environment, a stressed out teacher, well,go figure! It's great that you have such good memories of your favourite teacher,but don't forget that those,while not that long ago, were easier times for teachers.
I think,at least I hope, that my posts make it clear that I have great affection for my own students and because I like my job,I rarely get mad. But it can happen and when it does, the volume goes up. The kids don't like it and I don't either, but it's life in the real world and we get over it. Other work places are different,with different stressors, so I don't think you can compare.
My original point is that there are different styles of classroom management just as there are diverse teacher personalities. As long as it's mainly positive,I would say each to his own.0 -
I get what you're saying,Nicole, but I think you may be missing my point. I'm not advocating shouting. I'm simply saying that until such a time as better discipline supports are put in place, I find it perfectly understandable that an extremely stressed teacher loses the plot. And yes absolutely,my bias is towards the teacher,because not enough consideration is ever given to the teacher. A happy teacher creates a good environment, a stressed out teacher, well,go figure! It's great that you have such good memories of your favourite teacher,but don't forget that those,while not that long ago, were easier times for teachers.
I think,at least I hope, that my posts make it clear that I have great affection for my own students and because I like my job,I rarely get mad. But it can happen and when it does, the volume goes up. The kids don't like it and I don't either, but it's life in the real world and we get over it. Other work places are different,with different stressors, so I don't think you can compare.
My original point is that there are different styles of classroom management just as there are diverse teacher personalities. As long as it's mainly positive,I would say each to his own.
I did acknowledge that you didn't advocate such an approach of shouting all of the time. So you would reason that it's acceptable in some instances to shout in one workplace and not another? Question why exactly why this is. I know you say there are different stressers but there are people who work in other professions with very stressful jobs who deal with the public who are often not well behaved but it wouldn't be acceptable for them to shout at anytime. It isn't exactly comparable due to the size of a classroom compared to some workplaces I will admit but I still believe it is important to question why one thing is acceptable in one place and not another. What I mean is WHY is it unacceptable in some places? I won't go into how many years exactly it has been since I left school (let's just say I was still in school after Croke Park etc) but I did my placement there and have a lot of contact with this teacher and her approach hasn't changed as I have contact with her students during the working day.
The point you've made about diversity actually ties in with something I had written before you replied which is:I think this thread has been useful because it again highlights this theme of 'not having a handbook' for every situation with regard to discipline. It has also been interesting for me in the sense that if someone does not agree with you, you can be accused of idealism, a real Woodrow Wilson. Is it not possible for people to see the same thing but have different responses? In the previous thread about discipline it was also mentioned that the teacher's actions were reactionary but others also expressed that they would have handled the situation differently. Doesn't this highlight the diversity of attitudes relating to discipline? Does it make one opinion more right than another opinion, if so who has the power to make that judgement? You've referred to additional supports needed for teacher's in relation to discipline what supports specifically would you like to see in place? I would like to see a lower pupil teacher ratio so discipline would be easier to maintain and it would mean more one to one time with students so help them.0 -
I did acknowledge that you didn't advocate such an approach of shouting all of the time. So you would reason that it's acceptable in some instances to shout in one workplace and not another? Question why exactly why this is. I know you say there are different stressers but there are people who work in other professions with very stressful jobs who deal with the public who are often not well behaved but it wouldn't be acceptable for them to shout at anytime. It isn't exactly comparable due to the size of a classroom compared to some workplaces I will admit but I still believe it is important to question why one thing is acceptable in one place and not another. What I mean is WHY is it unacceptable in some places? I won't go into how many years exactly it has been since I left school (let's just say I was still in school after Croke Park etc) but I did my placement there and have a lot of contact with this teacher and her approach hasn't changed as I have contact with her students during the working day.
The point you've made about diversity actually ties in with something I had written before you replied which is:I think this thread has been useful because it again highlights this theme of 'not having a handbook' for every situation with regard to discipline. It has also been interesting for me in the sense that if someone does not agree with you, you can be accused of idealism, a real Woodrow Wilson. Is it not possible for people to see the same thing but have different responses? In the previous thread about discipline it was also mentioned that the teacher's actions were reactionary but others also expressed that they would have handled the situation differently. Doesn't this highlight the diversity of attitudes relating to discipline? Does it make one opinion more right than another opinion, if so who has the power to make that judgement? You've referred to additional supports needed for teacher's in relation to discipline what supports specifically would you like to see in place? I would like to see a lower pupil teacher ratio so discipline would be easier to maintain and it would mean more one to one time with students so help them.
You ask,"Is it not possible for people to see the same thing,but have different responses"? Absolutely.That's my whole point.To the extent that I think that you're now labouring the point about shouting. I'm fine with the fact that you're against shouting.You have your views and I have mine and my view is that a teacher losing the plot is not such a big deal in the great scheme of things. You don't agree and that's fine.Your former teacher has a different approach and that's fine too. Can we stop arguing about it now,please and allow the thread to develop?
Regarding the workplace. You can't compare a school with another workplace in this particular issue and I never said that it's acceptable to shout in one place and not another.I'm only talking about a classroom environment here and what may or may not happen in difficult situations.
What supports would I like? Also a lower pupil teacher ratio, to be sure.More support for teachers struggling with discipline. More general support and consideration for the teacher and more acknowledgement of the difficulties. Better mechanisms to remove very disruptive pupils,be it suspension or expulsion. A culture of lower tolerance of bad behaviour. I could go on.0 -
In my experience its strict silence in other teachers classes... I've found out the hard way that if you don't conform to what other teachers are doing (basically being a %%%% till Christmas philosophy) then the students will see you as the dos class and walk alllllll over you.0
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In my experience its strict silence in other teachers classes... I've found out the hard way that if you don't conform to what other teachers are doing (basically being a %%%% till Christmas philosophy) then the students will see you as the dos class and walk alllllll over you.
That's interesting Armelodie. I guess a lot depends on the size of the school. My school is very big,with all sorts of classes,so that probably allows for a greater variety of class management and teaching styles, with no one teacher feeling obliged to follow some sort of set pattern.In fact that is something I really like about my own school.
I go back to my earlier point though. For me, bonding with the class and getting them onside is the key. And that has always worked very well for me, though sometimes I feel I should be stricter with juniors,for my own sake,as it takes less energy when they're all quiet and compliant. But I don't think having them all quiet and compliant is natural. I think it's too inhibiting,but I'd like to get the views of teachers who do it successfully. I've also never subscribed to the %%%% til Christmas philosophy.0 -
just out of curiosity what would you don in the following situations:
1. child didn't do his homework where you caught them out by checking? (they tried to get away with you not knowing)
2. child makes a joke, starts laughing and gets 3 others laughing
3. child tells you to fcuk off
4. child throws a paper airplane across the room0 -
just out of curiosity what would you don in the following situations:
1. child didn't do his homework where you caught them out by checking? (they tried to get away with you not knowing)
2. child makes a joke, starts laughing and gets 3 others laughing
3. child tells you to fcuk off
4. child throws a paper airplane across the room
1. Calmly assign them a detention - if they argue/protest they get a warning
2. Depends on the child - if it is someone who is persistantly disruptive and does that type of thing to be disruptive to others, they get a warning
3. kicked out, detention, phonecall home
4. warning
I just realised..my school's reaction to everything is to give them a warning rather than immediate sanctions..no wonder discipline is so bad!0 -
just out of curiosity what would you don in the following situations:
1. child didn't do his homework where you caught them out by checking? (they tried to get away with you not knowing)
2. child makes a joke, starts laughing and gets 3 others laughing
3. child tells you to fcuk off
4. child throws a paper airplane across the room
1. Stay in at lunchtime for a detention with me and record in journal. Year Head follows up journals and further sanctions apply as notes accumulate
2. Depends on situation, no set procedure for me but would involve a talking to first and escalate if necessary. Also depends on the people involved, if it was ongoing etc.
3. Child ****s off home for a few days
4. Child accompanied me around at lunchtime picking up papers / cleaning the canteen / washing desks0 -
I get what you're saying,Nicole, but I think you may be missing my point. I'm not advocating shouting. I'm simply saying that until such a time as better discipline supports are put in place, I find it perfectly understandable that an extremely stressed teacher loses the plot.
This is unacceptable and unprofessional that you find it understandable that a stressed teacher can lose the plot. They are kids that we are dealing with, we are the adults. There is no other job you would get away with shouting at people in. It is not necessary and counter productive, everyday I manage my emotions in class because I am a educated professional and I am in control of my mind regardless of what the kids do or say or regardless of the stress levels. I enjoy my job as a result and the kids feel safe in my class and it results in less discipline problems than someone who shouts at them.
We are the adults so lets take control by having fair rules, mutual respect where the kids wont shout at me and I wont shout at them and build a relationship with the students.0 -
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kermitpwee wrote: »This is unacceptable and unprofessional that you find it understandable that a stressed teacher can lose the plot. They are kids that we are dealing with, we are the adults. There is no other job you would get away with shouting at people in. It is not necessary and counter productive, everyday I manage my emotions in class because I am a educated professional and I am in control of my mind regardless of what the kids do or say or regardless of the stress levels. I enjoy my job as a result and the kids feel safe in my class and it results in less discipline problems than someone who shouts at them.
We are the adults so lets take control by having fair rules, mutual respect where the kids wont shout at me and I wont shout at them and build a relationship with the students.
Listen, I don't know the first thing about you but I do know that your righteous and provocative attitude had a lot to do with the last thread on discipline getting closed, and the OP of that thread quite rightfully reported you for your attitude.
If you've got it all so sussed and you're so perfect with the kids, it's a bit ironic that you can't see that you are actually being offensive to your collegues with your sanctimonious criticism.
When you're teaching as long as I am, come back and lecture me with your black and white views!
Til then, I wish you a good Easter.0 -
Listen, I don't know the first thing about you but I do know that your righteous and provocative attitude had a lot to do with the last thread on discipline getting closed, and the OP of that thread quite rightfully reported you for your attitude.
If you've got it all so sussed and you're so perfect with the kids, it's a bit ironic that you can't see that you are actually being offensive to your collegues with your sanctimonious criticism.
When you're teaching as long as I am, come back and lecture me with your black and white views!
Til then, I wish you a good Easter.
Maybe let the mods do their job! I am amazed at how sensitive teachers on here are. I don't wish to insult you, I am not telling you to change your ways. I am stating that its not acceptable or professional to hold your belief that its okay to shout at kids when your under stress. If I was to ever shout at a kid I would immediately have to apologise profusely because I believe its wrong. It is in my eyes and in the eyes of the school I teach in a form of bullying. I am teaching 10 years and have an excellent discipline record, I have had 80 to 120 kids in the one lunch room of various years and kept them as quiet as a mouse. The principal and senior members of staff have asked me what is my secret, that they could not do it.
The answer is reflection! For the first 2 years of my career I was a shouter. I let my emotions get in the way until one day I came home and was about to quit. I started to evaluate the actions I had made that day. I started to question my classroom management, I started to experiment with various methods and I became a better teacher.
I am not here to make you feel bad but perhaps to make you question yourself.
Top tip for all teachers, never eve use sarcasm its something kids don't understand and adults rarely enjoy when its used on them!0 -
If I am upsetting people in here I will agree to never post in the Teaching and Lecturing forum again. It will be a sad day as I have a lot to give the forum! If the mods want me out then I will agree.0
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kermitpwee wrote: »Maybe let the mods do their job! I am amazed at how sensitive teachers on here are. I don't wish to insult you, I am not telling you to change your ways. I am stating that its not acceptable or professional to hold your belief that its okay to shout at kids when your under stress. If I was to ever shout at a kid I would immediately have to apologise profusely because I believe its wrong. It is in my eyes and in the eyes of the school I teach in a form of bullying. I am teaching 10 years and have an excellent discipline record, I have had 80 to 120 kids in the one lunch room of various years and kept them as quiet as a mouse. The principal and senior members of staff have asked me what is my secret, that they could not do it.
The answer is reflection! For the first 2 years of my career I was a shouter. I let my emotions get in the way until one day I came home and was about to quit. I started to evaluate the actions I had made that day. I started to question my classroom management, I started to experiment with various methods and I became a better teacher.
I am not here to make you feel bad but perhaps to make you question yourself.
Top tip for all teachers, never eve use sarcasm its something kids don't understand and adults rarely enjoy when its used on them!
Top tip for you.Question yourself!0 -
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kermitpwee wrote: »For the first 2 years of my career I was a shouter. I let my emotions get in the way until one day I came home and was about to quit. I started to evaluate the actions I had made that day. I started to question my classroom management, I started to experiment with various methods and I became a better teacher.
I am not here to make you feel bad but perhaps to make you question yourself.
Fair play for coming out, being honest and reviewing your teaching practice and I'm glad that you were able to move on from a difficult time. It's nice to hear stories like this and to see a teacher stop and evaluate their actions which I all think we should do because none of us are perfect.
I would also agree that many on this forum are very sensitive, I can understand why, teaching is a way of life for us, and for many of us it defines who we are. However, I also agree that constructive debate is helpful to our learning as people. I find the sensitivity off-putting at times because at college we always debate things, find holes in each other's logical and thus increase our understanding of things. The head of my department told us to do this and I believe that we should all use it as a tool to improve our practice. I never mean to be offensive to people even though I have been told I was offensive or that I have misunderstood something, but I haven't, I just have a different view of the topic. After all, aren't we mean to be academics? Have we not spent years in college debating, criticizing and learning? Don't we always tell our pupils that constructive criticism is helpful?0 -
Fair play for coming out, being honest and reviewing your teaching practice and I'm glad that you were able to move on from a difficult time. It's nice to hear stories like this and to see a teacher stop and evaluate their actions which I all think we should do because none of us are perfect.
I would also agree that many on this forum are very sensitive, I can understand why, teaching is a way of life for us, and for many of us it defines who we are. However, I also agree that constructive debate is helpful to our learning as people. I find the sensitivity off-putting at times because at college we always debate things, find holes in each other's logical and thus increase our understanding of things. The head of my department told us to do this and I believe that we should all use it as a tool to improve our practice. I never mean to be offensive to people even though I have been told I was offensive or that I have misunderstood something, but I haven't, I just have a different view of the topic. After all, aren't we mean to be academics? Have we not spent years in college debating, criticizing and learning? Don't we always tell our pupils that constructive criticism is helpful?
And what I find off putting is people who insist that their way is the right way,whose idea of constructive criticism is imposing their opinions on others,regardless of that fact that others have a different viewpoint, and who absolutely must hog a thread and have the last word.
So,be it. I'm actually amused by the tunnel vision at this stage. It would have been nice to get the views of various posters, with everyone respecting differences, but it looks like this thread on discipline is as doomed as the last one for the same reasons. It also looks as if the sensible folk are switched off for the holidays.:cool:0 -
And what I find off putting is people who insist that their way is the right way,whose idea of constructive criticism is imposing their opinions on others,regardless of that fact that others have a different viewpoint, and who absolutely must hog a thread and have the last word.
So,be it. I'm actually amused by the tunnel vision at this stage. It would have been nice to get the views of various posters, with everyone respecting differences, but it looks like this thread on discipline is as doomed as the last one for the same reasons. It also looks as if the sensible folk are switched off for the holidays.:cool:
"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." - Mahatma Gandhi
Im out kids enjoy the forum bye!0 -
Mod Warning:
Seriously folks, this thread has good potential, please consider these points if you are new to discussion fora;
1. Discuss the point at hand. If you disagree, that's ok, but don't make judgements on other posters teaching ...we dont know each other that well.
2. If your post includes the word "you" then you need to reconsider the what has been written. Are you discussing the issue or the person?
3. Do not refer to mod decisions, We dont want to be brought into a spat (esp. during holidays).
4. READ THE CHARTER (that was me shouting, next time itll all be in caps.)
5. We honestly dont mind the odd infraction if folk are new .. But infractions for the same reasons means you ain't learning too good.
Do not refer to this post..(I'm serious this time
)
Drive on.0 -
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I think the Easter break has come at the right time! I know it has for me, I've been tearing my hair out these last few weeks :pac:0
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