Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

LeinsterDub · 19-06-2017 2:02pm

https://www.thesun.ie/news/1125233/taoiseach-elect-leo-varadkar-earmarks-e2-4billion-dublin-metro-as-one-of-key-projects-he-wants-to-fast-track/

We have now learned there is considerable political pressure being put on bringing forward the start date for the long-delayed €2.4billion Metro North project to provide a rail link to Dublin Airport.

Interesting .

lateconnection · 19-06-2017 2:52pm

Considering the likelihood that Ballymun surface running will be rejected and that it will require a capacity upgrade a few years after opening, they should just bite the bullet and build the original at this stage. If they started in 2018, it would be done in 2023. Much better than 2027. Just go with the original, gets rid of hassle of ABP and Public Consultations all over again.....

Besides, I think TII are not that happy to start all over again..... Michael Nolan mentioned at that Oireachtas Capital Plan review meeting that they were "obliged" to take a fresh look at MN.

At the end of the day, the NTA and TII would probably just like to build the original. The only reason that the 'optimised' MN was proposed was because the politicians were not happy.

I hope that Leo will just go with the original now.

markpb · 19-06-2017 2:53pm

Meh, more of the same as far as I can see:

The preferred route will now be chosen this November for the project which could see a light rail running underground from the city centre via the airport out to Swords. A source said: “This matter came up for discussion when the Independent Alliance met the Fine Gael leader.
“It’s hoped the construction start date of 2021 will be brought forward to an earlier date.”

So they're still banging on about changing the design, shaving a fraction of the total cost off and waiting for the months or years it'll take to get a railway order. But maybe they can start earlier, apparently.

At least they're talking about it I guess. Better than nothing.

dublinman1990 · 19-06-2017 2:54pm

I think Leo Varadkar is probably regretting his previous decision to ditch MN when he was Minister for Transport in Enda Kenny's first government as Taoiseach in 2011. Although he may have seen a change of heart being reflected in how the Irish economy is performing now compared to only a couple of years ago.

It was said by Green Party Leader Eamon Ryan, before Varadkar got elected as Taoiseach last Friday, that delaying the building of MN was one of the worst decisions when Varkadar was Transport Minister.

The manner in which this new government prioritizes these infrastructure projects now is that they must reflect current conditions of travel movements across an entire population of a major city. MN does have the intention of reflecting current travel movements in the long term and relieving pressure from other parts of our current Transport system, case in point; Dublin Airport. If that project was built now; we wouldn't have this problem on our country's backs.

Just try and get it built as fast as you can please. Please do not delay it again. It is vital for Dublin's needs.

Sam Russell · 19-06-2017 2:56pm

The Chinese had a major delegation in town last week. Maybe they could build it for us.

BonnieSituation · 19-06-2017 3:26pm

markpb wrote: »

Meh, more of the same as far as I can see:

So they're still banging on about changing the design, shaving a fraction of the total cost off and waiting for the months or years it'll take to get a railway order. But maybe they can start earlier, apparently.

At least they're talking about it I guess. Better than nothing.

The station scoring is being done as we speak. Some of the routes that I have seen are outrageous.

I really hope we revert back to the original plan.

LeinsterDub · 19-06-2017 3:28pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

The station scoring is being done as we speak. Some of the routes that I have seen are outrageous.

I really hope we revert back to the original plan.

Is the original plan in the running ? Will it be scored too?

BonnieSituation · 19-06-2017 3:44pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Is the original plan in the running ? Will it be scored too?

I haven't a notion. All I know is that WE aren't scoring or dealing with "OLD" Metro North just NMN.

My own hope is that the scoring is done in such a way that when compared to the old plan that thy'll realise their mistake.

Zebra3 · 19-06-2017 3:58pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I haven't a notion. All I know is that WE aren't scoring or dealing with "OLD" Metro North just NMN.

My own hope is that the scoring is done in such a way that when compared to the old plan that thy'll realise their mistake.

I have no doubt they are aware of their mistake, but politicians admitting it is another thing altogether.

Idbatterim · 19-06-2017 5:00pm

I emailed those bloody morons at the time, saying there is nothing wrong with the scheme, just timing (politically). So just put it on hold until they are ready to proceed with it, of course we get the irish fudge. Just bull****, now its blatant that the fudge was total BS! Just go with the original scheme, save years of crap, money and construction inflation for an inferior scheme!

bk · 19-06-2017 6:04pm

dublinman1990 wrote: »

I think Leo Varadkar is probably regretting his previous decision to ditch MN when he was Minister for Transport in Enda Kenny's first government as Taoiseach in 2011. Although he may have seen a change of heart being reflected in how the Irish economy is performing now compared to only a couple of years ago.

You are spot on there. It looks to have been a major political mistake and he will now have to scramble to fix it or it will come back to bite him in the next two or three years!

I think that the people of Dublin have now come to expect at least one major infrastructure project to be physically on the go at all times. With Luas Crosscity complete there will be no major projects under construction and with the economy booming and congestion back it would look seriously bad if FG face an election in 3 years time and nothing is being constructed.

And no, them promising it will start or doing BRT or Luas extension to Finglas, etc. will not be good enough.

I'd say that unless the boring machine is actually in the ground, building MN by the next election, FG will be in serious trouble in the GDA.

In the last election, it was Dublin where FG lost seats and failed to gain a clear majority. They badly need to win Dublin if they want to stay in government.

So at this stage I'm confident that MN will go ahead and soon. The only question is exactly what it will look like. I'm hoping for the original MN with just some very small changes (the station under O'Connell Bridge probably gone, in fairness it did look like a very expensive monstrosity), but hopefully still 90m capable stations, etc.

Minimise the need for planning changes and thus get going quickly, but just enough to say that it is a "cheaper" version.

Idbatterim · 19-06-2017 6:11pm

So at this stage I'm confident that MN will go ahead and soon. The only question is exactly what it will look like. I'm hoping for the original MN with just some very small changes (the station under O'Connell Bridge probably gone, in fairness it did look like a very expensive monstrosity), but hopefully still 90m capable stations, etc.

the thing is, unless it is the original version which has planning, its not going ahead soon...

they can spin and BS as much as they like!

looks lets whittle it down really quickly, the only significant change, that might make sense if you could simply change the original scheme, without having to go through planning again , is the Oconnell bridge stop (thats a maybe, I am not even convinced of it). Thats it!

I think Leo Varadkar is probably regretting his previous decision to ditch MN when he was Minister for Transport in Enda Kenny's first government as Taoiseach in 2011. Although he may have seen a change of heart being reflected in how the Irish economy is performing now compared to only a couple of years ago.

whats stopping him showing some actual "leadership" LOL qualities and having some spine and saying Metro north is going ahead, the original scheme...

aliveandkicking · 19-06-2017 6:30pm

Looking at the original railway order plans

http://www.tii.ie/tii-library/railway-orders/eis-metro-north/20-LMN000GA107003A.pdf

I don't think they can build the original scheme even if they wanted to. Luas Cross City is now in the way of the O'Connell Bridge stop. Maybe I'm wrong but I don't see how they could build it with Luas Cross City in place.

Idbatterim · 19-06-2017 6:33pm

I don't think they can build the original scheme even if they wanted to. Luas Cross City is now in the way of the O'Connell Bridge stop. Maybe I'm wrong but I don't see how they could build it with Luas Cross City in place.

surely LCC plans were in place at the time?

I dont know if everything here seems impossible because people dont have enough expertise or what, but when I look at the discovery channels, the stuff that goes on worldwide in terms of engineering is mind boggling, crossrail for example, here it seems that one small obstacle and something becomes "impossible"

Idbatterim · 19-06-2017 6:40pm

the proposal for the Upper Oconnell street stop, its 1.3km from SSG stop to UOCS, quite a gap?

Also these proposed "savings" I just came across a figure of 452,000,000 original v "optimized" makes it sound really considered and that is better use of taxpayers money. Id call it Metro poorer value for money...

how much of that 452,000,000 flows back to government coffers anyway? They are so concerned about "cost" rather than "value", hilariously construction inflation doesnt get taken into account as one of their "costs"...

This coming from the same crowd who say the economy is safest in their hands!

cgcsb · 19-06-2017 8:47pm

dublinman1990 wrote: »

I think Leo Varadkar is probably regretting his previous decision to ditch MN when he was Minister for Transport in Enda Kenny's first government as Taoiseach in 2011. Although he may have seen a change of heart being reflected in how the Irish economy is performing now compared to only a couple of years ago.

It was said by Green Party Leader Eamon Ryan, before Varadkar got elected as Taoiseach last Friday, that delaying the building of MN was one of the worst decisions when Varkadar was Transport Minister.

The manner in which this new government prioritizes these infrastructure projects now is that they must reflect current conditions of travel movements across an entire population of a major city. MN does have the intention of reflecting current travel movements in the long term and relieving pressure from other parts of our current Transport system, case in point; Dublin Airport. If that project was built now; we wouldn't have this problem on our country's backs.

Just try and get it built as fast as you can please. Please do not delay it again. It is vital for Dublin's needs.

On an item of expenditure as large as metro north, individual ministers don't have much of a say.

LeinsterDub · 19-06-2017 9:34pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

They are so concerned about "cost" rather than "value", hilariously construction inflation doesnt get taken into account as one of their "costs"...

Nor the cost of doing it 3 or 4 times like the Luas and it's still not right (don't get me wrong it's far better than nothing)

jd · 19-06-2017 10:27pm

The other problem is DU has gone back into planning. How do they fast track when the alignments of a SSG station aren't known

Grandeeod · 19-06-2017 10:49pm

If its ever built, it will be outdated and overcrowded from day one and Dublin will already have another "bigger" project in planning that will take 40 years to "nearly" get built.

There will be a tram system in Galway, Limerick or Cork before a Metro is built in Dublin. You heard it here first.:rolleyes:

xper · 20-06-2017 12:10am

Idbatterim wrote: »

surely LCC plans were in place at the time?

I dont know if everything here seems impossible because people dont have enough expertise or what, but when I look at the discovery channels, the stuff that goes on worldwide in terms of engineering is mind boggling, crossrail for example, here it seems that one small obstacle and something becomes "impossible"

If you dig out the published plans for Luas BXD, you'll see the surface structures for the original MN plans (escalators, lifts, ventilation, etc) detailed and avoided so the two built systems are compatible. That's not the problem.

The Luas cross city plans were finalised after MN so it doesn't appear on the MN railway order plans but it was well known that O'Connell St was going to end up with one or two tram lines running along it. However, the assumption at that time was that, since both libes would be built, it would make sense to build MN first then build BXD above it.

So the plans for station site access during construction of MN don't take account on the tram line now in place along O'Connell Street. That element would need to be re-planned and would be more complicated/constrained. Not impossible from an engineering point of view at all but likely to have increased costs/disruption.

bk · 20-06-2017 9:23am

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Nor the cost of doing it 3 or 4 times like the Luas and it's still not right (don't get me wrong it's far better than nothing)

We need to get use to the idea that public transport projects are never finished. Overtime they expand, improve and increase capacity to meet demand of a growing city.

This isn't unique to Ireland, it is true of every city in the world. Just look at how London Underground stations and lines are constantly renovated and improved and this is a public transport system that has existed for 150 years!

I'm really happy that Luas was designed so that it could easily expand over time, being able to extend existing trams and having left enough space for longer stations from the start.

Only complaint that I have is that Luas cross city wasn't built from the start, but that was down to political interference.

I can only hope that Metro North is built with such foresight and the ability to easily expand in time (90 meter station boxes or more, etc.)

bk · 20-06-2017 9:25am

jd wrote: »

The other problem is DU has gone back into planning. How do they fast track when the alignments of a SSG station aren't known

It now looks like there is little chance DU will go ahead for at least more then a decade or two. I suspect Metro North will go ahead individually and I suspect Metro South will even happen now before DU.

LeinsterDub · 20-06-2017 9:43am

bk wrote: »

We need to get use to the idea that public transport projects are never finished. Overtime they expand, improve and increase capacity to meet demand of a growing city.

This isn't unique to Ireland, it is true of every city in the world. Just look at how London Underground stations and lines are constantly renovated and improved and this is a public transport system that has existed for 150 years!

I'm aware the transport should be an on going project but BX and the longer platforms should of been there from day one and BX and Luas past James should have been underground. Instead they've happened over the course of 12 years . AKA it was fudged initially and BX is still a fudge.

bk wrote: »

I'm really happy that Luas was designed so that it could easily expand over time, being able to extend existing trams and having left enough space for longer stations from the start.

I think you're giving the original planners too much credit

Ernest · 20-06-2017 9:45am

bk wrote: »

It now looks like there is little chance DU will go ahead for at least more then a decade or two. I suspect Metro North will go ahead individually and I suspect Metro South will even happen now before DU.

"Metro South" !!!
Now, where on earth did that come from ?

LeinsterDub · 20-06-2017 9:51am

Ernest wrote: »

"Metro South" !!!
Now, where on earth did that come from ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_Metro#Metro_South

marno21 · 20-06-2017 9:52am

Ernest wrote: »

"Metro South" !!!
Now, where on earth did that come from ?

Metro South is just the conversion of the Luas Green Line south of Ranelagh to Metro given its high standard of separation. It'll probably happen in conjunction with Metro North

LeinsterDub · 20-06-2017 9:56am

marno21 wrote: »

Metro South is just the conversion of the Luas Green Line south of Ranelagh to Metro given its high standard of separation. It'll probably happen in conjunction with Metro North

Which of course means in less that 25 years the Luas Green line will have undergone 2 platform extensions ,2 cross city link ups and a south city extension

Jesus wept

BonnieSituation · 20-06-2017 10:05am

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Which of course means in less that 25 years the Luas Green line will have undergone a 2 platform extensions ,2 cross city link ups and a south city extension

Jesus wept

The planners had such foresight to allow this to happen. :rolleyes:

Meanwhile West of the county continuously gets ignored. At least we have the glorious bus.

lateconnection · 20-06-2017 10:25am

BonnieSituation wrote: »

The station scoring is being done as we speak. Some of the routes that I have seen are outrageous.

I really hope we revert back to the original plan.

What sort of routes have you seen? Do they differ majorly from the currently proposed route?

bk · 20-06-2017 12:05pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I'm aware the transport should be an on going project but BX and the longer platforms should of been there from day one and BX and Luas past James should have been underground. Instead they've happened over the course of 12 years . AKA it was fudged initially and BX is still a fudge.

Saying that in retrospect is all fine and good but it ignores the public and political opinion at the time.

I've no doubt that the planners knew that Luas was going to be a massive success and it would open overcapacity, just like most of us on this forum did. However the people of Ireland were not convinced about Luas at all and as a result neither were the politicians.

You may have forgotten, but when the Luas was being planned, the newspapers were full of articles saying that it was going to be a white elephant, cost overruns, wouldn't be used and add to that screams from the cities business leaders :rolleyes:

As a result, the project was scaled back and Luas cross city was canned at the time.

I would have loved had the Luas been cut and cover along Abbey Street with a bus corridor above it, but the reality that would have exploded the cost of the project and it probably would never have gotten built.

The sad truth is the public wasn't convinced about it and Luas had to prove itself on a smaller scale first.

The great news is that Luas was wildly successful and the public loved it and as a result, all the Luas projects since (extensions, longer trams, longer stations, Luas Crosscity) have gone through with almost zero opposition and loads of public support, pretty much unlike any project I've seen before in Ireland.

And at least the planners had made it easy to expand as it gained public support.

Unfortunately this mindset seems to be a trend with Irish people. We seem to be generally very conservative, in denial that things can be done better, afraid to look abroad for best practices, etc. We seem to need things to be totally broken first before we try and fix things.

We saw it in the past with DART, the motorways, port tunnel, Luas, etc. All were called white elephants first, until the first of them was opened and then we loved them and called for more.

We are unfortunately seeing this again with Metro North. People aren't convinced we need a "fancy underground". Of course people will love it once built and will complain about how overcrowded it is when built!

I actually think they made a mistake calling it a Metro. I think they would have been better branding it as Luas North, but otherwise exactly the same as MN (stations, trains, route, etc.). I think there would have been far more public support for it if people had thought of it as a Luas that happens to just run underground for a bit!

I've no doubt that MN will be widely successful and that it will be just the start of us building more underground including DU. I'm just hoping NMN won't be too hobbled and that again the planners will be able to sneak by lots of room for expansion (at least 90m capable station boxes, 60m trams that can easily extended to 90m, etc.).

BTW you see the same with banning cars from the quays, the College Green square, multi-door bus operations, etc., you really have to drag Irish people kicking and screaming into the 21st century!

Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

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