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Mk4s taking over on the Belfast line?

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    #92
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    I'm sure funding could be sourced for a set of Enterprise DMUs too. A small fleet of 22000s or something derived from them built to Enterprise spec would make an awful lot of sense as they could be maintained with the larger IE fleet.


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    #93
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,667 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    I wonder though what the legalities of moving the MK4 trains off to Northern Ireland would be.

    They were part funded for the Cork-Dublin route by EU funding as far as I am aware. They're not just there to be willy nilly removed from service and used elsewhere a few years into use.

    I wonder what the legalities are for most of the fleet in storage!


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    #94
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    I wonder what the legalities are for most of the fleet in storage!

    One would wonder alright.

    The big issue seems to be the fact that the 201s put unnecessary amounts of stress on the lines and cause extra maintenance.

    I've also never seen a CO2 or L of diesel per KM or per passenger carried comparison for the 22000s and the MK4.

    I've a funny feeling that a 1990s US-built diesel locomotive won't get anything like the same levels of efficiency as a new DMU using the latest German built MTU engines and very high tech Voith transmission systems.

    The drive technology behind the 22000s is entirely German and very much focused on environmental and fuel consumption targets.

    The MK4s are fine, but they need a bit of a spruce up at this stage and some efficient, non-track shredding power cars. The money's not there anymore though.


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    #95
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    We don't need another wodge of cash given to Rotem or CAF. There is still plenty of rolling stock available to operate current service, it's just laid up in IE sidings. The issue with such programmes is that there is money to buy stuff but not so much operate it or refit existing surplus to requirements stock to be more cost efficient.

    EDIT: Spacetime, the economics of DMU vs locomotive tends to vary with train length, shorter favouring DMU. Remember also that there is higher maintenance the more cars are powered although the raft swap system at least helps with engine downtime. There seems to be a lot of concern on North American boards I read about the durability of "modern" high speed diesel engines now being put into locomotives as opposed to the previous 900-1000rpm two strokes like the 201 has.


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    #96
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    dowlingm wrote: »
    We don't need another wodge of cash given to Rotem or CAF. There is still plenty of rolling stock available to operate current service, it's just laid up in IE sidings. The issue with such programmes is that there is money to buy stuff but not so much operate it or refit existing surplus to requirements stock to be more cost efficient.

    I think IE could have definitely refurbished the MK3 trains and made them push-pull, but I think we have what we have now. The MK4 and the 22000s all meet and go well beyond any current technical or accessibility requirements.

    From what I can see, the elephant in the room is the fact that the 201 locomotives were a lousy choice. They were an outright disaster on the Enterprise route with the electrical generation issues and damage to engines and they are too heavy for a lot of other routes and even on the routes that can hold them I've heard that they cause premature track wear.

    What they should have done was bought a fleet of express power cars, refurbished the MK3s and the DDs and created a standardised push-pull fleet. Then supplemented it with a smaller order of 22000s.

    Or, if they were going to go all DMU, scrapped the MK3s and never bought the MK4s and got 200km/h capable DMUs.

    We have what's there now though and I think the fundamental thing they need to do is ensure they don't undermine the key services like Cork-Dublin to prop up the Enterprise.

    If I were IE I would be lashing some money into improving the experience on the key routes - things like add a coffee bar serving what people expect in a modern café. Improve the WiFi, retrofit sockets in MK4 .. Add things like the ability to hire a car at Heuston, Cork, etc included with your ticket.

    I'd also change the timetable so that the Cork-Heuston service stops somewhere like Kildare or closer in (where it would be possible to have a car arranged) for people doing business trips who don't need to go to central Dublin.

    There's a lot the could do with the existing fleet they just need to use a lot more imagination to encourage passengers onto the service. It's not all about top speeds, a lot of it is about consistent levels of high quality service and business-friendly products.

    Rail also has a 'respectability' for business travel that the bus will never have.


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    #97
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,542 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    I think IE could have definitely refurbished the MK3 trains and made them push-pull, but I think we have what we have now. The MK4 and the 22000s all meet and go well beyond any current technical or accessibility requirements.

    From what I can see, the elephant in the room is the fact that the 201 locomotives were a lousy choice. They were an outright disaster on the Enterprise route with the electrical generation issues and damage to engines and they are too heavy for a lot of other routes and even on the routes that can hold them I've heard that they cause premature track wear.

    What they should have done was bought a fleet of express power cars, refurbished the MK3s and the DDs and created a standardised push-pull fleet. Then supplemented it with a smaller order of 22000s.

    Or, if they were going to go all DMU, scrapped the MK3s and never bought the MK4s and got 200km/h capable DMUs.

    We have what's there now though and I think the fundamental thing they need to do is ensure they don't undermine the key services like Cork-Dublin to prop up the Enterprise.

    If I were IE I would be lashing some money into improving the experience on the key routes - things like add a coffee bar serving what people expect in a modern café. Improve the WiFi, retrofit sockets in MK4 .. Add things like the ability to hire a car at Heuston, Cork, etc included with your ticket.

    I'd also change the timetable so that the Cork-Heuston service stops somewhere like Kildare or closer in (where it would be possible to have a car arranged) for people doing business trips who don't need to go to central Dublin.

    There's a lot the could do with the existing fleet they just need to use a lot more imagination to encourage passengers onto the service. It's not all about top speeds, a lot of it is about consistent levels of high quality service and business-friendly products.

    Rail also has a 'respectability' for business travel that the bus will never have.



    Why would you put extra stops on the Cork train? It needs as few as possible to be competitive.


    Anyone going to intermediate stations can change at Portlaoise.


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    #98
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Why would you put extra stops on the Cork train? It needs as few as possible to be competitive.


    Anyone going to intermediate stations can change at Portlaoise.

    Because a very very large % of motorway business traffic actually goes to the M50 and hinterland not the city centre.

    Couple it with a car rental and you'd actually have a viable product.

    If you want to go super eco, and tap tax breaks and EU funding - make it an electric car hire.


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    #99
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,542 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    Because a very very large % of motorway business traffic actually goes to the M50 and hinterland not the city centre.

    Couple it with a car rental and you'd actually have a viable product.

    If you want to go super eco, and tap tax breaks and EU funding - make it an electric car hire.

    And are these people incapable of changing trains?

    There is an hourly Heuston-Portlaoise stopping service that feeds into/out of the Cork service and stops right beside the M50 at Fonthill and Parkwest.

    You don't need any more stops on Dublin-Cork trains - that service provides that facility already. The train needs to be competitive with coaches and adding extra unnecessary stops would dilute that.


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    #100
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    lxflyer wrote: »
    And are these people incapable of changing trains?


    There is an hourly Heuston-Portlaoise stopping service that feeds into/out of the Cork service and stops right beside the M50 at Fonthill and Parkwest.


    You don't need any more stops on Dublin-Cork trains - that service provides that facility already.


    In reality : yes.

    Make it even slightly complicated and they'll just drive.

    I know loads of Cork business people who will not set foot on a train if there's a change into Commuter rail.

    There's a lot of money to be made out of a reasonably priced City Gold that actually offers something worthwhile.

    The existing service offers you a bigger seat and that's about it.

    If they did a proper business focused service on the key routes, they'd make money. There's more to it than a big seat.


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    #101
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,542 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    In reality : yes.

    Make it even slightly complicated and they'll just drive.

    I know loads of Cork business people who will not set foot on a train if there's a change into Commuter rail.

    There's a lot of money to be made out of a reasonably priced City Gold that actually offers something worthwhile.

    The existing service offers you a bigger seat and that's about it.



    But it's not a commuter train.


    They are all ICR operated.


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    #102
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    lxflyer wrote: »
    But it's not a commuter train.


    They are all ICR operated.

    Do I know that? Nope.
    Does your average business person know that? Absolutely not.

    Historically here change train = stand on windswept platform and get into bone shaker.


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    #103
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,542 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    Do I know that? Nope.
    Does your average business person know that? Absolutely not.

    Historically here change train = stand on windswept platform and get into bone shaker.

    Well times have changed.

    The current schedule is more than adequate to facilitate local travel to stations between Portlaoise and Heuston.


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    #104
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Well times have changed.

    The current schedule is more than adequate to facilitate local travel to stations between Portlaoise and Heuston.

    They're not really advertising that though.

    I just find that when anyone makes any critique of Irish Rail services though that there's a very much attack the customer vibe comes across.

    At present IE can't compete on speed. That's likely to be the situation for the foreseeable future. They've got medium distance regional trains rather than high speed.

    Shaving a few Min off here and there at enormous expense may not necessarily make much difference.

    So, they need to work with what they have and focus on innovative product design.

    Telling customers what they want lands you in a situation where you'll have no customers.

    Where they've excelled in recent years has been making the services consistent on the Cork line anyway.


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    #105
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,542 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    They're not really advertising that though.

    I just find that when anyone makes any critique of Irish Rail services though that there's a very much attack the customer vibe comes across.

    At present IE can't compete on speed. That's likely to be the situation for the foreseeable future. They've got medium distance regional trains rather than high speed.

    Shaving a few Min off here and there at enormous expense may not necessarily make much difference.

    So, they need to work with what they have and focus on innovative product design.

    Telling customers what they want lands you in a situation where you'll have no customers.

    Where they've excelled in recent years has been making the services consistent on the Cork line anyway.



    I'm not attacking anyone - I'm merely pointing out that the service is adequate for what you are suggesting, and that your initial observation was not correct.


    There are full timetable pdfs available for the Cork route that list every service on the route if people wish to plan a journey.


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    #106
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,740 ✭✭✭SeanW


    dowlingm wrote: »
    Inda will call Angela and say "if a fuss is kicked up I'll need more money" and she'll have the dogs called off.
    That would require a spine ...


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    #107
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    lxflyer wrote: »
    I'm not attacking anyone - I'm merely pointing out that the service is adequate for what you are suggesting, and that your initial observation was not correct.


    There are full timetable pdfs available for the Cork route that list every service on the route if people wish to plan a journey.

    The issue though is that they don't plan trips. Ireland isn't like continental Europe in that regard.

    If you don't absolutely spell out that some route is possible most people seem to assume it doesn't exist and drive instead.

    I just think they could still grab a lot more business traffic if they upped their game in terms of making the best use of existing technology and building services onto it.

    Probably won't happen though as it's not really in the CIE culture to do that.
    I just don't like to see potentially good services dying out though due to lack of innovation.


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    #108
    BuffyBot
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 24,924 Mod ✭✭✭✭BuffyBot


    ..and now back to the Enterprise...


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    #109
    TheBandicoot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 879 ✭✭✭TheBandicoot


    Beam me up Buffy


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    #110
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    If IE/NIR specified a DVGT instead of a DVT for the DD sets, the 201s wouldn't have gone bang as often as evidenced by Enterprise liveried 201s resting on Mark 4 diagrams. In fact the Mark 4 could be seen as "lesson learned" in that respect, with the EGVs as an imperfect (given how long it took to put them into action) substitute.


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